One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[faroukfarouk]

I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, but God makes covenants, not contracts.

Romans 8 is a wonderful chapter in relation to this subject; the way it culminates in verses 38 and 39 is truly wondrous and sublime, for the believer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Best post since the OP.

2 Corinthians 13:5 supports your last few paragraphs.

All that I would add is we have a loving and gracious God.

He does take the bull by the horns of those who are His. That is the paradox we deal with which is not confusing to His will.

Jesus Christ is a lover and pursuer of His own.

We should know His Holiness and live accordingly.

Our pursuit is not alone as He gives us the power to overcome the flesh.

I will admit I am not perfect. If someone here is please chime in. Our pursuit is to be like Him. We need to be inn the same boat with Him heading "true north" and not on a ship heading to the South Pole.

I've been staunch in my presentations here because God is Sovereign in His salvation. I take that as confidence He will keep those who love Him. Those who love Him do what He says. The sheep will trust and obey.

Although the thread is about eternal security, I have presented above what is called the preservation of the sheep. Such does not mean we can take the Holy Spirit into a brothel and be "ok" with Him. It means when we sin we are assured to be convicted of our sin by the indwelling Holy Spirit. If we are not, we should examine ourselves to see if we have Jesus Christ in us.

So thank you for your post as you put a stake in the ground which can now produce more fruitful discussion. You have killed the antinomian straw man so many have rode for pages. Now we can all discuss God's Holiness, His beauty and love and how we as brethren pursue the holy calling. (Philippians 3:14)

God Bless.

But I do not see how you truly agree with what he said, though.
Do you not believe that you will always sin in this life?
Do you not believe that a person is once saved always saved as long as they generally live a holy life? What does that holy life look like?
Also, if a believer watches porn over the weekend, are they saved or unsaved during the time they are watching porn before they repent of such sins?

 

[jerry kelso]

We either hear His voice or we don't. It's concrete and monolithic. It's not a sometimes or maybe.

I'm actually presenting a more stringent and concrete model.

Others are making things conditional which Christ did not.

Redleghunter,

1. We as Christians can ignore God's voice on a matter but it doesn't mean necessarily that they are not saved.

2. God knows the condition of the heart. All these things such as not hearing his voice or not believing or not following is when one completely goes awol and changes master.
Man is born in sin and when he becomes saved his allegiance is to Christ. When man decides to leave God and live for Satan his allegiance is back to Satan.
This has happened time and time again.
Now some will say they never were saved. This is true for some that were just professors but not everyone.
1 John 2:24-25 shows the condition to be and stay saved.
God will not make anyone believer or unbeliever do what they don't want to.
We have to cooperate with God in faith and allow him to do the work in us.
Romans 6 shows who you yield yourself to is whom you serve.
Jerry kelso

 

[redleghunter]

The sheep was found when he repented. To claim that sinners are found and restored to the flock absent repentance is heresy.

Let's back up the truck on this. There is nothing in the text that says the sheep repents and is thus found. That's a fact.

However, the Big Fact is everyone in the Gospels who follow Jesus turn away from their previous lives and follow Him. That is repentance.

Jesus told Matthew to follow Him. Matthew repented by action by immediately dropping what he was doing and followed him. If that is not repentance I don't know what is.

Notice you could have told me that when the sheep willingly goes back with the Shepherd that is repentance because he is going on the Shepherd's terms...back in the fold with the 99.

Please don't jump the gun when I plainly point out when something is not clearly in the text. The important piece of the Good Shepherd is that He leaves the 99 to go and get the lost sheep. Meaning the beauty of this is Christ is a lover and pursuer of His sheep.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You do know Ishmael was just an infant at the time right, the term used by Paul does mean overt persecution but the idea here is Ishmael was a threat to the child of promise. Being the first born Ishmael would have been entitled to the inheritance from Abraham, but God had him sent away. Isaac was born of the spirit, his birth was miraculous. Ishmael was born of the flesh in that he was conceived by Hagar because Sarah and Abraham had trouble believing God's promise. When Abraham heard the promise he laughed, when Sarah overheard the promise she laughed. That's where Isaac got his name, it means 'she laughs'. So much for easy believism.

No. Scripture says,

28 "And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.
29 But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit." (Galatians 3:28-28) (NLT).

How was Isaac persecuted? Scripture says,

"But Sarah saw Ishmael--the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar--making fun of her son, Isaac." (Genesis 21:9) (NLT).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You don't have to be arrogant.............my friend. You use the word "NO" a lot. Learn to debate civilly.

Well, I use the word "no" a lot because I do not want there to be any confusion that we agree. I have said certain things to people in the past before and they think I am agreeing with them (When in reality I am not agreeing with them). Using the word "no" means that they are not correct without having to write out whole entire sentences that I do not agree with them. It is quick and to the point and it is no way means that I am not being civil or polite. Friends can tell others "no" to drinking and driving (repeatedly) but it does not mean they are not being polite or civil. So you are redefining what the word "civil" actually means because you do not like the message I preach from God's Word. Also, there is no emotion behind my words. The only way I can show that I was not being polite would be by insulting you. So lets' not nitpick over words that can be read as being nuetral and let's stick with Scripture please. The word "no" is simply expressing my thoughts that I disagree. You can read more into that if you like, but I am here to discuss God's Word.

If the Jews had been told to be born again by Moses, why did they not understand the term when Jesus spoke it? They did the best through could with the partial truth given them. They were saved by their faith once Christ came to man. They couldn't seek the kingdom of God because it wasn't given to them to know. Jesus taught us to seek it we have to be born again. To receive it we are born of fire (Chrism Holy Ghost). Show me where the spirituality of seeking the kingdom of God and the baptism of the Holy Ghost appear in the OT.

They didn't use the term born again in the Old Testament. They used the words, "circumcision of the heart" as another way of saying born again. After Jesus told Nicodemus about being born again, Nicodemus said, "How can this be?"

Jesus replied, “You are a great teacher in Israel, and you don't know this?" (Genesis 3:10) (GNT).

Here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):

Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

 

[redleghunter]

1. We as Christians can ignore God's voice on a matter but it doesn't mean necessarily that they are not saved.

I agree.

2. God knows the condition of the heart. All these things such as not hearing his voice or not believing or not following is when one completely goes awol and changes master.
Man is born in sin and when he becomes saved his allegiance is to Christ. When man decides to leave God and live for Satan his allegiance is back to Satan.

The parable of the soils only has one soil which exhibits saving faith. This soil will produce. Perhaps you see the other soils as saving faith and that is our impasse. The difference between effectual call and general call of the Gospel.

This has happened time and time again.

Where? Not being snide, you are a good man Jerry. I keep hearing this and I get hypotheticals. What "if."

Now some will say they never were saved. This is true for some that were just professors but not everyone.

How do you know?

1 John 2:24-25 shows the condition to be and stay saved.

The same apostle said those who left us were never part of us. (1 John 2:18-19)
He's obviously not contradicting himself.

God will not make anyone believer or unbeliever do what they don't want to.
We have to cooperate with God in faith and allow him to do the work in us.

Only those who have the love of Christ living in them (1 John 4:16). Grace does not stop at the foot of the cross and empty tomb.

Perhaps...again perhaps we have differing beliefs on what made a new creation means in our relationship with God (2 Corinthians 5:17). God Bless Jerry!

 

[redleghunter]

But I do not see how you truly agree with what he said, though.

18 pages of this thread makes this abundantly clear.

Meaning I had to leaf through canned apologetics claiming and telling me what I believe.

 

[Rescued One]

Yet, do you not also believe that a believer will always sin as a part of this life?
How is that not a future admitance to doing evil?
How is that any different than the one sin Adam committed against God?
To admit that one will do evil is wrong.
It is having the wrong mindset about sin.

Always sin? Every minute? Never sin?

1 John 1
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I haven't met any sinless Wesleyans or Nazarenes or anyone else for that matter. Shouldn't we be like Christ?

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 8 is a wonderful chapter in relation to this subject; the way it culminates in verses 38 and 39 is truly wondrous and sublime, for the believer.

You will be told that is only for those who cooperate with God and endure to the end. Even though those verses say those who are in Christ will not be separated.

 

[redleghunter]

I haven't met any sinless Wesleyans or Nazarenes or anyone else for that matter.

 

[mark kennedy]

No. Scripture says,

28 "And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.
29 But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit." (Galatians 3:28-28) (NLT).

How was Isaac persecuted? Scripture says,

"But Sarah saw Ishmael--the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar--making fun of her son, Isaac." (Genesis 21:9) (NLT).

Again, Ishmael was an infant, his mom made fun of the second born but that was because she thought her son was the heir. You say no, no what?

Well, I use the word "no" a lot because I do not want there to be any confusion that we agree. I have said certain things to people in the past before and they think I am agreeing with them (When in reality I am not agreeing with them). Using the word "no" means that they are not correct without having to write out whole entire sentences that I do not agree with them. It is quick and to the point and it is no way means that I am not being civil or polite. Friends can tell others "no" to drinking and driving (repeatedly) but it does not mean they are not being polite or civil. So you are redefining what the word "civil" actually means because you do not like the message I preach from God's Word. Also, there is no emotion behind my words. The only way I can show that I was not being polite would be by insulting you. So lets' not nitpick over words that can be read as being nuetral and let's stick with Scripture please. The word "no" is simply expressing my thoughts that I disagree. You can read more into that if you like, but I am here to discuss God's Word.

You disagree with what exactly, we are supposed to be doing all things unto edification here. You didn't invent theology and certainly don't own a monopoly. I think you are careless on these matters which is why I don't like discussing theology with you. These things are very serious, starting off with no because you like correcting people is not healthy intellectually and certainly not spiritually.

 

[redleghunter]

Yup and that requires belief and perseverance unto maturity and fruit/crop. Those that believed for a while do not grow unto maturity but instead fall away because of testing. How does someone who falls away from the faith, fall away from it if he never belonged to it in the first place? That is impossible; yet that is what your logic entails.

Again there is only one soil which produces. Or are you implicating the Good soil can become bad as well?

 

[Adzinfi]

Sentence. I did finish my sentence in the way I chose to. I will allow you the same privilege. God bless.

You omitted the rest of the verse and there by misrepresent what it says..
That's not wise

 

[Adzinfi]

Before I answer all your numerous questions, maybe you could answer the ones I posted previously which you haven't responded to yet.

What about you, do you live a perfect, sinless life?

What about the apostles and believers through history? Can you give examples of any who lived a sinless life?

Paul who was certainly saved wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit his struggle with the flesh and the Spirit and I think the scriptures show that it is the condition believers deal until we are home with the Lord.

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Romans 7:15-25

Ohh the old “Paul said he struggled with sin so that excuses you from continuing to sin“ line.

Guess what..he only said that in reference to his life BEFORE he was born again .
No born again believer is under sins power.
No born again believer has to continue to practice sin .
I wonder what the sin is your referring to in your own life.

 

[redleghunter]

Ohh the old “Paul said he struggled with sin so that excuses you from continuing to sin“ line.

I read the same post and wonder how you concluded the poster advocates the bolded above?

Frankly this quite disingenuous and probably why we have 18 pages of misrepresentations evoking corrections and further misrepresentations.

Why can't we as Christians take at face value what people write and not read into an argument a point never made.

It's dishonest apologetics.

 

[mark kennedy]

Ohh the old “Paul said he struggled with sin so that excuses you from continuing to sin“ line.

Guess what..he only said that in reference to his life BEFORE he was born again .

My reading of the text, Paul was saying he still struggled with sin.

No born again believer is under sins power.

True, but sin doesn't go away because you are born again.

No born again believer has to continue to practice sin .

True, but that doesn't mean sin will never confront the believer.

I wonder what the sin is your referring to in your own life.

It can be singular, it can be multiple, but one thing is for sure, sin does not rest until the redemption of the purchased price.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Ronald]

The problem with your interpretation is that the verse does not say "believe a little" as you wrote. It plainly reads believe for a while. Believe means believe - if only for a while. Believe in this verse is the exact same word for believe used in Jn 3:16. Pisteuo never refers to unbelievers or only those who believe a little.

Yes, a little while, just as a seed planted in shallow soils grows, but does not take deep root, isn't nourished and therefore lives for only _ a little while.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, Ishmael was an infant, his mom made fun of the second born but that was because she thought her son was the heir.

Again, no. Your not reading it right.

It says... "When Isaac grew up and was about to be weaned, Abraham prepared a huge feast to celebrate the occasion." (Genesis 21:8).

Ishmael was born before Isaac. So he was not an infant; And it says here that... when Isaac GREW UP (KJV says, "child grew and was weaned"). So Isaac was off his mother's milk. He was already weaned.

Verse 9 says,

"But Sarah saw Ishmael--the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar--making fun of her son, Isaac." (Genesis 21:9). (NLT).

Sarah saw Ishmael making fun of her son Isaac. That is what it says.

Same thing here in the KJV.

"And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking." (Genesis 21:9) (KJV).

You say no, no what?

Your interpretation. What else do you think I was saying "no" to?

You disagree with what exactly, we are supposed to be doing all things unto edification here.

Some save with fear pulling men out of the fire.

You didn't invent theology and certainly don't own a monopoly. I think you are careless on these matters which is why I don't like discussing theology with you. These things are very serious, starting off with no because you like correcting people is not healthy intellectually and certainly not spiritually.

I cannot unlearn what I know from studying God's Word by prayer and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. If you are offended by what I say, you have to realize that I am providing primarily Scripture here to what I am saying and it is not my opinion or words stated alone.

As for your unusual disagreement with my use of the word "no": Well, the word "no" is simply stating that I disagree. It is like saying "no" to a person who wants to drink and drive. When something is wrong, it is not impolite to say, "no" as a form of disagreement. I can say, "I disagree." It is the same as saying "no." Not sure why you would think otherwise. Do you have an examples of where it is wrong to say... "no"? Is it Scriptural? Is it a concept that is based upon the real world?

Jesus said "no" (nay) fives times (where He was talking directly and not as speaking from another person's experience) in His Earthly ministry to others. This is important to understand because we are told in Scripture to imitate Christ (1 Peter 2:21).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Always sin? Every minute? Never sin?

1 John 1
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

I haven't met any sinless Wesleyans or Nazarenes or anyone else for that matter. Shouldn't we be like Christ?

We walk by faith and not by sight. Noah was a preacher of righteousness according to Scripture. So he preached righteousness to a world that was entirely wicked. Can you imagine it? Imagine if you were in that crowd and what they were thinking. They could say that Noah was nuts for trying to preach righteousness because nobody was living righteously. Do you see where I am coming from?

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1 John 3:3).

2 Corinthians 7:1 says,
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

What part of "all" do you not understand wthin this above verse?

Also, 1 John 3:2 says.. we shall see Him as He really is. So we will be like Him in appearance. We are not all going to be mind wiped and be exactly like Christ. Our individuality will remain intact. It says we will be "like" Him. We are not going to be an exact replica. "Like" is something similar.

1 Peter 4:1-2 says very clearly that we can cease from sin by suffering in the flesh and that we are to live the rest of our time here not to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.