One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[mark kennedy]

Your reply is problematic in that you would then have to explain how the lost sheep is found. The lost sheep originally belonged to the flock of other 99 sheep who need no repentance which can only describe believers - never unbelievers. The lone sheep then leaves the flock and becomes lost and is referred to as a sinner. Lost and sinner are terms descriptive of an unsaved/unbeliever. Therefore we have a saved person who belonged with the other 99 who need no repentance. This saved person then strayed and became a lost sinner according to the text - thus unsaved. The Shepherd does indeed get the sheep but you fail to account for how the sheep is found. Does not this now unsaved person first have to repent and turn around in order to be found? No sinner can be found unless he/she first repents, therefore this sheep had to repent in order to be found by the shepherd. If you are interpreting this passage as only applying to those who were never saved to begin with, the text clearly indicates otherwise as this sheep was originally a part of the other 99 who need no repentance.

That lost sheep is probably a lamb, this was a major problem for shepherds. A missionary who had visited the Holy Land many times told a story of 3 shepherds who were watering their flocks and he was wondering how they would separate them. The shepherds when they were finished walked in different directions each singing a little song and the sheep following as close as they could get, they knew their shepherds voice. The lambs though like to wander off, the shepherd, probably a young boy, had to track down the lamb and would often break it's leg. When David talks about escaping from the lion and the bear I always imagined it was over one of these lambs, anyway. After breaking the leg the Shepherd would carry the lamb on his shoulders. When David talks about 'the bones though hast broken' and 'they rod and they staff they comfort me', this is part of what he had in mind.

Jesus is clear that none who come to him will be lost, if they are his he knows how to deliver them and rescue them, even from themselves. This discipline can be sever, in 1 Cor. 11 Paul is dealing with rich Christians who are mistreating the poor at the love feasts. He says, 'many of you are sick and some of you sleep', James 2 is about the same problem and James goes so far as to say, is this even saving faith.

Now this is emphasized throughout the New Testament, you should make every effort to ensure that your salvation is genuine. You do that by preserving the word of God in your heart but by the time your bearing fruit, through the power of the Holy Spirit, you are no more likely to be cast out of Christ then Christ is to be cast out of the Trinity. That's if and only if your conversion is genuine and you can't know that until the Holy Spirit tells you it is.

I don't fail to mention and nor does Christ. The text says the man goes out and finds. That literally means the man goes out looks around, sees the sheep and finds it.

Who were the people responding to the gospel? Zacchaeus the Tax Collector (Luke 19:1-10) was a miserable wretch, a hated tax collector probably seen as little more then a traitor. He just want's to see Jesus, he reminds me of Danny DeVito. Jesus comes to stay with Zacchaeus, no doubt the man had been honored like this at any time in his adult life, now he is embarrassing him. Jesus' enemies start to criticize his honored guest saying he fellowships with sinners, no doubt all eyes turn to Zacchaeus and I can just imagine Jesus sitting there grinning from ear to ear. Zacchaeus repents and commits to paying back anything he cheated anyone out of, which was all too easy to do for a tax collector. Jesus then announces, salvation has come to this house.

Sinners repented and the pious and high and mighty hardened their heart against the gospel. You must see yourself as a slave to sin, chief of sinners as Paul so elegantly expressed it. If you don't see yourself in Romans 1 and 2 or as the fool in Proverbs your not paying attention. Grace means nothing to the pious who fool themselves into believing they have no sin. But now, the Apostle says about half way through the third chapter of Romans, the righteousness of God is revealed, being by grace through faith apart from works. Your a sinner redleghunter and indeed we all are, we dare not for shame, judge another sinner. It's not those sinners out their that worry me, it's the one in here that I have to answer for.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Oldmantook]

The demons "believe" (pisteuo) that "there is one God" but they do not believe (pisteuo) on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. The word "pisteuo" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.

Demons believe that there is one God as they do recognize God, however they do not obey. The scriptures teach that belief and obedience are one and the same thing. To believe is to obey and vice-versa. You believe that "belief" is necessary for eternal life as Jn 3:16 states, correct? Then do you not also believe that obedience is necessary for eternal life as Heb 5:9 states?
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (Jn 3:36).

People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having root do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." *Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this - Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away.

Yes, shallow belief withers away. However that does not mean that these had no belief to begin with as it plainly states "they believe for a while." Those who never believed are those referred to in Lk 8:12 where it plainly states "so that they may not believe and be saved." There is a vast difference between not believe vs. believe for a while.

John mentions certain people who believe "to some depth" but are not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief/faith in Jesus that "falls short of consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 in which their "belief" is obviously superficial in nature. Also, in John 8:31-59 where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in.

Your argument is based on a logical fallacy sometimes known as a hasty generalization or overgeneralization. While it is true that some who believe but later fall away, were never truly believers in the first place, it is not logical to conclude that all who believe but later fall away were never believers in the first place. That would be like saying some chickens lay brown eggs [true], therefore all chickens lay brown eggs [false].

 

[Oldmantook]

That lost sheep is probably a lamb, this was a major problem for shepherds. A missionary who had visited the Holy Land many times told a story of 3 shepherds who were watering their flocks and he was wondering how they would separate them. The shepherds when they were finished walked in different directions each singing a little song and the sheep following as close as they could get, they knew their shepherds voice. The lambs though like to wander off, the shepherd, probably a young boy, had to track down the lamb and would often break it's leg. When David talks about escaping from the lion and the bear I always imagined it was over one of these lambs, anyway. After breaking the leg the Shepherd would carry the lamb on his shoulders. When David talks about 'the bones though hast broken' and 'they rod and they staff they comfort me', this is part of what he had in mind.

Jesus is clear that none who come to him will be lost, if they are his he knows how to deliver them and rescue them, even from themselves. This discipline can be sever, in 1 Cor. 11 Paul is dealing with rich Christians who are mistreating the poor at the love feasts. He says, 'many of you are sick and some of you sleep', James 2 is about the same problem and James goes so far as to say, is this even saving faith.

Now this is emphasized throughout the New Testament, you should make every effort to ensure that your salvation is genuine. You do that by preserving the word of God in your heart but by the time your bearing fruit, through the power of the Holy Spirit, you are no more likely to be cast out of Christ then Christ is to be cast out of the Trinity. That's if and only if your conversion is genuine and you can't know that until the Holy Spirit tells you it is.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Using anthropocentric examples can be a risky thing in proving scriptural truth as they may not exactly mirror what the scriptures teach. Nevertheless we must still deal directly with the text. Therefore was this sheep a believer or not, as it was originally part of the 99 others who need no repentance. Yes or no? Was this sheep referred to as lost and a sinner; yes or no? Could this sheep have been found by the shepherd without first repenting; yes or no? How you answer these simple questions determines your interpretation of this passage.

 

[Oldmantook]

You need to read the entire passage I quoted. The sheep does repent as later Jesus says so in the last two verses.

Which makes sense. We are told God convicts us of our sin.

Let the beauty and love of the Lost Sheep sink in for a few moments. He throws the sheep on His shoulders. Wow.

Yes the sheep repents and as a consequence is found. God finds us when we return to him in repentance seeking his forgiveness. But forgiveness is conditional upon repentance. Not all Christians live a repentant lifestyle but instead choose to live in habitual sin, still thinking they're saved. For example if you have a pornography habit (not saying you do, just for example) would you still consider yourself saved? Wouldn't you first have to repent like this sheep did in order to be found and returned back to the flock having no need of repentance?

 

[mark kennedy]

Demons believe that there is one God as they do recognize God, however they do not obey. The scriptures teach that belief and obedience are one and the same thing. To believe is to obey and vice-versa. You believe that "belief" is necessary for eternal life as Jn 3:16 states, correct? Then do you not also believe that obedience is necessary for eternal life as Heb 5:9 states?

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (Jn 3:36).

To him also give all the Prophets witness, that through his Name all that believe in him, shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44)
​

If you fall away, you fall away from the faith. There is a time when the word of God in the heart is to understand the gospel, before responding in saving faith. If you fall away from the faith then you are lost forever. If you receive the faith and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit it's the guarantee of the redemption of the purchase price.

Yes, shallow belief withers away. However that does not mean that these had no belief to begin with as it plainly states "they believe for a while." Those who never believed are those referred to in Lk 8:12 where it plainly states "so that they may not believe and be saved." There is a vast difference between not believe vs. believe for a while.

Don't confuse the person who sees, perceives, understands, or in other words is 'enlightened' with saving faith. That is an equivocation fallacy, they are two very different things.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Using anthropocentric examples can be a risky thing in proving scriptural truth as they may not exactly mirror what the scriptures teach. Nevertheless we must still deal directly with the text. Therefore was this sheep a believer or not, as it was originally part of the 99 others who need no repentance. Yes or no? Was this sheep referred to as lost and a sinner; yes or no? Could this sheep have been found by the shepherd without first repenting; yes or no? How you answer these simple questions determines your interpretation of this passage.

All who come to Christ are sinners in need of repentance. Jesus is talking about seeking and saving sinners, those who have matured have already been through what this little lamb is about to learn. I'm not the one making an anthropocentric example, Jesus is in this parable. It was the pious who rejected him and the sinners who received him. When Jesus speaks of the Apostles he prays, Father they were yours and you gave them to me. So the Apostles already belonged to God when they were called with one exception. Peter was called Satan, was almost kicked out of the Upper Room for refusing to let Jesus wash his feet, denied him three times the night Jesus was betrayed and when Paul met him he called Peter a hypocrite. We are all sinners, we are all subject to the same discipline.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
​

Are you a sinner Oldmantook? It's a simple question, yes or no?

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes the sheep repents and as a consequence is found. God finds us when we return to him in repentance seeking his forgiveness. But forgiveness is conditional upon repentance. Not all Christians live a repentant lifestyle but instead choose to live in habitual sin, still thinking they're saved. For example if you have a pornography habit (not saying you do, just for example) would you still consider yourself saved? Wouldn't you first have to repent like this sheep did in order to be found and returned back to the flock having no need of repentance?

The best description of repentance I know of is that it happens at the seat of moral reflection. What the particular sin might be, and they are many, the real question is whether or not your conversion is genuine or if the word of God in your heart is chocked out by other things. When Paul is talking to the Corinthians he says, yes, all things are lawful but not all things are helpful. Then when Paul gets to the bottom line he says flee fornication. There is such a thing as being double minded and it's awful when a believer falls into one of the devils traps. We are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, Paul is very clear on this point in Romans 6. Then in Romans 7 he expresses his frustration with being such a wretched man that in his heart he delights in the law but in his flesh he is subject to all manner of temptation.

I think the fundamental question here is fundamentally flawed.

For Moses thus describeth the righteousness which is of the Law, That the man which doeth these things, shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith, speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is to bring Christ from above.) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is to bring Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is near thee, even in thy mouth, and in thine heart. This is the word of faith which we preach. For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth man confesseth to salvation. (Romans 10:5-10)
​

Just as with the parable of the sower the seed, the word of God is in your heart and in your testimony. This passage is clear, if you believe in your heart and profess with your mouth you are saved. Paul is even going so far as to explain the gospel from the Law, God had told them this before entering the promised land. You must receive the word of God and respond in faith. This is all over the New Testament, justification by grace through faith comes before eternal security, you don't get the former right the question of eternal security is meaningless.

 

[Oldmantook]

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (Jn 3:36).

To him also give all the Prophets witness, that through his Name all that believe in him, shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44)
​

If you fall away, you fall away from the faith. There is a time when the word of God in the heart is to understand the gospel, before responding in saving faith. If you fall away from the faith then you are lost forever. If you receive the faith and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit it's the guarantee of the redemption of the purchase price.



Don't confuse the person who sees, perceives, understands, or in other words is 'enlightened' with saving faith. That is an equivocation fallacy, they are two very different things.

Grace and peace,
Mark

No; I would encourage you if you know how, to study the Greek verb tenses in the scriptures. When it comes to "believing" and "obeying" in the NT as it relates to eternal life, most of the time it refers to ongoing belief and obedience. In other words, the action of continuing to believe and obey is requisite for salvation. If a believer ceases to believe or obey, salvation is no longer assured of.

 

[mark kennedy]

No; I would encourage you if you know how, to study the Greek verb tenses in the scriptures. When it comes to "believing" and "obeying" in the NT as it relates to eternal life, most of the time it refers to ongoing belief and obedience. In other words, the action of continuing to believe and obey is requisite for salvation. If a believer ceases to believe or obey, salvation is no longer assured of.

I am already inclined to seek out those things, if you have some insights I would be interested. Faith is an act of obedience, it is the required response to the gospel. You never answered the question, Oldmantook, are you a sinner?

 

[Oldmantook]

All who come to Christ are sinners in need of repentance. Jesus is talking about seeking and saving sinners, those who have matured have already been through what this little lamb is about to learn. I'm not the one making an anthropocentric example, Jesus is in this parable. It was the pious who rejected him and the sinners who received him. When Jesus speaks of the Apostles he prays, Father they were yours and you gave them to me. So the Apostles already belonged to God when they were called with one exception. Peter was called Satan, was almost kicked out of the Upper Room for refusing to let Jesus wash his feet, denied him three times the night Jesus was betrayed and when Paul met him he called Peter a hypocrite. We are all sinners, we are all subject to the same discipline.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
​

Are you a sinner Oldmantook? It's a simple question, yes or no?

Yes I'm a believer - for decades. Please deal with the text of Lk 15:3-7 or don't bother to reply. Was the lost sheep a believer since it originally belonged to the flock who need no repentance. Yes or no? If it was not a believer how can it have belonged with the other sheep who needed no repentance?
Everyone sins but again your apparent lack of knowledge of the Greek causes you to misinterpret. When this verse states "have no need of repentance" it does not mean that these sheep/persons don't sin. The word for "have" is from the Greek "echousin" which is a present tense verb accurately translated as "having." Thus at the present time these sheep are having no need of repentance since they are remaining in an abiding relationship with the shepherd. When the lone sheep strayed from this abiding relationship; it became a sinner and lost. Only upon repentance was it found. Sinners cannot be found unless they first repent of sin. A saved person/sheep can be lost (unsaved) through the practice of sin which is habitual sin. The only way back to the flock and salvation is through repentance and forsaking the practice of sin.

 

[Oldmantook]

The best description of repentance I know of is that it happens at the seat of moral reflection. What the particular sin might be, and they are many, the real question is whether or not your conversion is genuine or if the word of God in your heart is chocked out by other things. When Paul is talking to the Corinthians he says, yes, all things are lawful but not all things are helpful. Then when Paul gets to the bottom line he says flee fornication. There is such a thing as being double minded and it's awful when a believer falls into one of the devils traps. We are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, Paul is very clear on this point in Romans 6. Then in Romans 7 he expresses his frustration with being such a wretched man that in his heart he delights in the law but in his flesh he is subject to all manner of temptation.

I think the fundamental question here is fundamentally flawed.

For Moses thus describeth the righteousness which is of the Law, That the man which doeth these things, shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith, speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is to bring Christ from above.) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is to bring Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is near thee, even in thy mouth, and in thine heart. This is the word of faith which we preach. For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth man confesseth to salvation. (Romans 10:5-10)
​

Just as with the parable of the sower the seed, the word of God is in your heart and in your testimony. This passage is clear, if you believe in your heart and profess with your mouth you are saved. Paul is even going so far as to explain the gospel from the Law, God had told them this before entering the promised land. You must receive the word of God and respond in faith. This is all over the New Testament, justification by grace through faith comes before eternal security, you don't get the former right the question of eternal security is meaningless.

If belief were the only requirement for salvation as Jn 3:16 states then I would certainly agree with you. However, Heb 5:9 also states that obedience is required for eternal life. One cannot accept the prior as being true without also accepting the latter as also being true when it comes to salvation.

 

[Oldmantook]

I am already inclined to seek out those things, if you have some insights I would be interested. Faith is an act of obedience, it is the required response to the gospel. You never answered the question, Oldmantook, are you a sinner?

Yes, no doubt I'm a sinner as no one is without sin. However, the scriptures make a clear distinction between occasional sin which is forgiveable upon confession and repentance, and habitual sin which if unrepented of leads to spiritual death for everyone including believers. That might make for a good study if you are so inclined. Also another hint - faith is indeed an act of obedience as you state; however in Heb 5:9 obedience is not a one-time act of faith as in obeying the call to salvation when one first trusts in Jesus for salvation. The word for obey in the Greek is a hypakouousin which is a present tense participle. Thus a believer must be "obeying" or continue to obey God in order to have eternal life - not just at the moment when one first believed in the past.

 

[Danthemailman]

Thank you for quoting 2 Cor 13:5 as ironically you cite a verse which just happens to prove the opposite of what you hold to be true.

Not so. The point Paul makes in 2 Corinthians 13:5 is that those who do not fail the test are in the faith and those who fail the test are not in the faith.

The Greek word for "fail the test" is the word "adokimos." Believers are to test themselves in order to determine if they are in the faith.

Genuine believers are in the faith and do not fail the test, in contrast to those who merely profess to be believers, yet fail the test, demonstrating they are not in the faith.

The reason for this testing is to determine if indeed you fail the test.

Those who fail the test are not in the faith/are not genuine believers.

This test can in no way be construed as being directed to unbelievers because unbelievers have no faith to be tested to begin with.

The test is not failed by believers, but unbelievers, so those who fail the test are unbelievers who profess to be believers and are mixed in with the group of believers, so the test is directed at both.

Only believers possess a faith to be tested. Thus this verse indicates that it is possible for believers to fail the testing of their faith.

Genuine believers do not fail the testing of their faith.

If you don't that believe that believers can fail the test you would be at odds with the Apostle Paul who wrote this about himself:

The test in 2 Corinthians 13:5 is to determine whether or not you are IN THE FAITH. Believers are in the faith; unbelievers are not in the faith--failed the test.

But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, so that having preached to others I myself should not be disqualified (adokimos).

In context, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize (NIV) not failing the test of being in the faith. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18? Salvation is a gift, not a prize.

Paul plainly wrote that he disciplined his body/flesh in order that he would not become adokimos (disqualified/fail the test). You would never claim that Paul never truly belonged to the faith would you?

Yet disqualified for the prize (1 Corinthians 9:27) does not equate to fail the test of being in the faith, as in 2 Corinthians 13:5.

A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

Notice that verse 24 says, "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize, receiving the gold medal?

 

[Danthemailman]

Demons believe that there is one God as they do recognize God, however they do not obey.

The demons believe (mental assent) that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven, lack of obedience to Christ and continuous evil works.

The scriptures teach that belief and obedience are one and the same thing.

Not exactly. Choosing to believe is an act of obedience, yet belief is belief and obedience which follows is works.

To believe is to obey and vice-versa. You believe that "belief" is necessary for eternal life as Jn 3:16 states, correct?

To believe is to trust in Jesus for salvation and to obey Him afterwards is works and we are not saved by works (Romans 4:5-6). John 3:16 correctly states those who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Then do you not also believe that obedience is necessary for eternal life as Heb 5:9 states?

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (Jn 3:36).

In John 3:36, "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON". In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, obeying the Son here does not mean salvation by works, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe on the Son. The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message.

Yes, shallow belief withers away. However that does not mean that these had no belief to begin with as it plainly states "they believe for a while." Those who never believed are those referred to in Lk 8:12 where it plainly states "so that they may not believe and be saved." There is a vast difference between not believe vs. believe for a while.

Believe, as in the 4th soil, in which the seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." So where is the fruit from the rocky soil? The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Again, temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief.

Your argument is based on a logical fallacy sometimes known as a hasty generalization or overgeneralization. While it is true that some who believe but later fall away, were never truly believers in the first place, it is not logical to conclude that all who believe but later fall away were never believers in the first place.

Do you agree that shallow, temporary belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief? 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

That would be like saying some chickens lay brown eggs [true], therefore all chickens lay brown eggs [false].

Show me the words "lost salvation" in scripture.

 

[SBC]

Yes I'm a believer - for decades. Please deal with the text of Lk 15:3-7 or don't bother to reply. Was the lost sheep a believer since it originally belonged to the flock who need no repentance. Yes or no? If it was not a believer how can it have belonged with the other sheep who needed no repentance?
Everyone sins but again your apparent lack of knowledge of the Greek causes you to misinterpret. When this verse states "have no need of repentance" it does not mean that these sheep/persons don't sin. The word for "have" is from the Greek "echousin" which is a present tense verb accurately translated as "having." Thus at the present time these sheep are having no need of repentance since they are remaining in an abiding relationship with the shepherd. When the lone sheep strayed from this abiding relationship; it became a sinner and lost. Only upon repentance was it found. Sinners cannot be found unless they first repent of sin. A saved person/sheep can be lost (unsaved) through the practice of sin which is habitual sin. The only way back to the flock and salvation is through repentance and forsaking the practice of sin.

The LOST;
Are those WHO have HAD;
The "knowledge" about and of God;
WHO had commonly "Followed" along, Believing, participating in practicing, worshiping.
Commonly, ie meaning, by tradition and teaching of their fathers, clerics, community, etc.
LOST, ie meaning, stopped following, stopped practicing, possibly for some, stopped believing.

Everyone WHO is hearing, and following along, and believing;
Are Being "enlightened", by the Word of God, who is Light, who is Truth.

A follower, who IS being enlightened, is one who IS following,
BECAUSE they are BELIEVING, what they ARE Hearing.
Thus they Are "IN FAITH".

The KEY, is Commitment.

As in ancient days, AND to this day -
MANY follow along ... FOR MANY reasons
ie meaning, parents teach children, People have a interest to know, People choose to go and hear, read

Hearing, Reading, is ONLY the beginning of faith.
While ONLY the beginning...it is still having faith.

Anyone in their OWN beginning - ie WHEN they personally are hearing, reading, learning about God...
CAN at ANYTIME, for ANY of their own personal reasons,
STOP following along, or stop believing...
WHICH IS THEM PERSONALLY.....LOSING FAITH......ie FALLING FROM FAITH....
They are called LOST.

The KEY, is Commitment.

The Commitment - IS a person WITH FAITH, WHO,
is more than learning, following, hearing, reading, believing, having faith -

The Commitment - IS a person WHO
Calls on the Name of the Lord, giving the Lord, their own YES, word, to be FAITHFUL to God only.

This IS a word of a man in FAITH, whom God hears, and sees if the mans word is TRUE in the thoughts of his heart.... AND if so....

The Lord ACTS immediately, quickly, to do a number of things, securing this mans LIFE, the WHOLENESS thereof, of this mans LIFE, unto God only and forever.

The point being -
FAITH is one thing, and can apply to anyone following along believing; and one can FALL from FAITH, at any time.

FAITHFULNESS, is another thing, that ONLY applies to one IN FAITH, who COMMITS themselves, their WHOLE life, to God ONLY, and can NEVER fall FROM FAITH.

Their WHOLE life, IS - body, soul, spirit.

That IS the precise WHOLE of a man, that a faithful man commits unto the Lord, that His POWER,
1) forgives the carnal mans Sins against God
2) spiritually kills the mans natural body
3) spiritually covers the mans sin, cleanses the mans body, sanctifies it, justifies it to be redeemed
....and later changed, Kept with Christ, until such time of redeeming.
4) restores the mans souls to forever be with God
5) quickens the mans spirit
6) Spirit of God and His Power enters the man and dwells with the man forever.
7) The Power of God keeps the man unto God forever.
8) Spiritual gifts commence between the Spirit of God and the mans born again (quickened) spirit.
9) Spiritual gifts ie; Knowledge, Understanding, via the Word of God, the Spirit of Truth,

THIS ONLY APPLIES to the COMMITTED FAITHFUL.
The committed FAITHFUL, can NEVER FALL from FAITH...
Precisely BECAUSE -
A man in commitment, IS IN FACT giving God the Authority for HIS POWER to KEEP them FOREVER in FAITHFULNESS to God Only.

The KEY.....

WHEN Gods Spirit is IN A MAN.....then are ye of God...

1 John 1 [4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[redleghunter]

Yes the sheep repents and as a consequence is found.

The text does not say so, but if this comforts your theology, so be it.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes, no doubt I'm a sinner as no one is without sin. However, the scriptures make a clear distinction between occasional sin which is forgiveable upon confession and repentance, and habitual sin which if unrepented of leads to spiritual death for everyone including believers. That might make for a good study if you are so inclined. Also another hint - faith is indeed an act of obedience as you state; however in Heb 5:9 obedience is not a one-time act of faith as in obeying the call to salvation when one first trusts in Jesus for salvation. The word for obey in the Greek is a hypakouousin which is a present tense participle. Thus a believer must be "obeying" or continue to obey God in order to have eternal life - not just at the moment when one first believed in the past.

Obedience, Obedient, Obey: (G5219 - hypakouō) to listen, to harken of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter). (Vine’s Dictionary)
​

We know from Scripture that: ‘the winds and the sea obey G5219 him!’, same word (Matt. 8:27). That demons obey him (Mark 1:27). We know that we are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies, so that we obey G5219, the lusts thereof (Romans 6:12-16). So what does it really mean to be obedient to the faith? Obedience in this passage simply means get up and answer the door:

And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, G5219 named Rhoda. (Acts 12:13)
​

All the same word.

Ok, let's talk about our little lost lamb that wandered off from the Shepherd. Now I can't tell you if this lamb is actually saved when he wanders off, unless you can answer a question for me.

Yes I'm a believer - for decades. Please deal with the text of Lk 15:3-7 or don't bother to reply. Was the lost sheep a believer since it originally belonged to the flock who need no repentance. Yes or no? If it was not a believer how can it have belonged with the other sheep who needed no repentance?

Were these people saved?

Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” (Luke 15:1-2)
​

The text has a context and the context is clear the parables that followed were about the tax collectors and sinners. At the time of the parable are they saved and what is your reasoning that they were or were not?

Now we know that they had to be drawn by the Father, some would describe this as being called. Indeed many are called and few are chosen. In the parable of the sower they all receive the same seed on different soils. Were the ones who believed early on only to fall away because of persecution saved and then lost? All we know about the tax collectors and sinners is that they came to listen, so if they are not saved when Jesus starts the parable then neither was the little lost lamb.

Feel free to answer as you see fit, I await your response.

Grace and peace,
Mark

​

 

[RisenInJesus]

Ohh the old “Paul said he struggled with sin so that excuses you from continuing to sin“ line.

Guess what..he only said that in reference to his life BEFORE he was born again .
No born again believer is under sins power.
No born again believer has to continue to practice sin .
I wonder what the sin is your referring to in your own life.

It could be that I've been a faithful Christian for years, serving the Lord. Maybe I've had a faithful Christian marriage for years, raised a family of children who are believers, and now raising their own children in the Lord. You don't know anything about me, yet, you are assuming I am participating in continual sin and trying to make excuses for it. I think you may want to look at your own heart.

Although, (Romans 6:11)... Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord... is one of my favorite verses which I often think about, I am also aware of the reality that there is a battle that all believers deal with between the flesh and the Spirit which will not end until we leave this earth and dwell in resurrected bodies. God uses this for our sanctification as we are continually made to realize our dependence upon Him.

There is no way that Paul was simply speaking in reference to before he was born again...because only when one has been born again do they have the Holy Spirit, are they even aware of the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit or have any desire to live any other way but in the flesh. So clearly Paul was speaking about his struggle as believer.

 

[mark kennedy]

It could be that I've been a faithful Christian for years, serving the Lord. Maybe I've had a faithful Christian marriage for years, raised a family of children who are believers, and now raising their own children in the Lord. You don't know anything about me, yet, you are assuming I am participating in continual sin and trying to make excuses for it. I think you may want to look at your own heart.

Although, (Romans 6:11)... Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord... is one of my favorite verses which I often think about, I am also aware of the reality that there is a battle that all believers deal with between the flesh and the Spirit which will not end until we leave this earth and dwell in resurrected bodies. God uses this for our sanctification as we are continually made to realize our dependence upon Him.

There is no way that Paul was simply speaking in reference to before he was born again...because only when one has been born again do they have the Holy Spirit, are they even aware of the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit or have any desire to live any other way but in the flesh. So clearly Paul was speaking about his struggle as believer.

The struggle between sin and righteousness did not begin nor did it end, at conversion when Paul is born again. For the first time Paul has a choice of serving sin or righteousness, something the law couldn't do.

 

[Oldmantook]

Not so. The point Paul makes in 2 Corinthians 13:5 is that those who do not fail the test are in the faith and those who fail the test are not in the faith.

Genuine believers are in the faith and do not fail the test, in contrast to those who merely profess to be believers, yet fail the test, demonstrating they are not in the faith.

Those who fail the test are not in the faith/are not genuine believers.

The test is not failed by believers, but unbelievers, so those who fail the test are unbelievers who profess to be believers and are mixed in with the group of believers, so the test is directed at both.

Genuine believers do not fail the testing of their faith.

The test in 2 Corinthians 13:5 is to determine whether or not you are IN THE FAITH. Believers are in the faith; unbelievers are not in the faith--failed the test.

In context, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize (NIV) not failing the test of being in the faith. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18? Salvation is a gift, not a prize.

Yet disqualified for the prize (1 Corinthians 9:27) does not equate to fail the test of being in the faith, as in 2 Corinthians 13:5.

A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

Notice that verse 24 says, "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize, receiving the gold medal?

If those who are in the faith cannot adokimos, then why are we instructed to "examine yourselves?" If it were impossible for believers to adokimos, then the command to examine ourselves is quite irrelevant. Regarding nonbelievers - Paul would certainly not waste his time and instruct nonbelievers to examine themselves. How can nonbelievers examine themselves if they are not in the faith to begin with? I don't think your rationale fits with the context.

Moreover, Paul wrote that he himself could adokimos if it were not for the fact he made the effort to discipline his own body/flesh. Paul himself explains what he meant by "reward" in 1 Cor 9:18: "What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel." Rather than be rewarded with monetary compensation in preaching the gospel which was his right, Paul instead chose to forego that right in order that he could present the gospel free of charge. It has nothing to do with eternal rewards and beating and subjecting his flesh. If you think that being adokimos has nothing to do with one's salvific status, then examine Rom 1:28 - "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved (adokimos) mind, to do those things which are not proper." This verse in context is referring to those who practice homosexuality. These were certainly not Christians so being adokimos is associated with being unsaved. Taking these scriptures as a whole, believers are to examine themselves, be like Paul and discipline their flesh, in order they would not be like those unsaved homosexuals in Rom 1 who are adokimos.

Finally if you still think that you or any other believer cannot become adokimos then you would have no problem accepting the mark of the beast would you? Would you still "pass the test" if you took the mark of the beast? Yes or no? If you claim that you will be raptured before that scenario so therefore the question is irrelevant, look at Rev 14:12 - "This calls for endurance on the part of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faith in Jesus." Whether these are the church age saints or the tribulation saints is another subject. The fact remains that saints are still present at this time and this verse call for the saints to endure, keep the commands and hold on to their faith - by refusing the mark of the beast.