One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[Bible Highlighter]

18 pages of this thread makes this abundantly clear.

Meaning I had to leaf through canned apologetics claiming and telling me what I believe.

Yet, how does that help me to understand what you believe is true, though?

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This is closed for staff review.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This is being reopened. Please stay on topic.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Even though those verses say those who are in Christ will not be separated.

A good (and sad today) example is marriage.

"Till death do us part" - as YHWH said YHWH HATES DIVORCE.

If someone does what YHWH HATES, not just once, but every day, don't think YHWH will be pleased. Nor that Yeshua will testify for them before His Father (YHWH).
Likewise, if 2 people get married and become one flesh, as YHWH SAYS,
and remain together as YHWH SAYS all their lives, this is good and true and faithful and right.

Even though YHWH said no one should break apart what YHWH has put together,
...
sad.... what happens anyway....

likewise, unless YHWH took free will away before someone died, they can potentially at any time in their life follow SATAN instead of JESUS, by their free will/ choice.

If they follow JESUS and REMAIN with HIM, no one can pull them out of His Care - that's true.
It does not contradict that they can turn away from Him and follow SATAN if they choose to, as many have done in the last 2000 years, and even Jesus disciples - in the New Testament, many of His disciples left Him when it "got too hard" for them to stay with Him.

This is even more true today, so many more billions not willing to "endure" or stay with Him for whatever reason.

 

[redleghunter]

A good (and sad today) example is marriage.

"Till death do us part" - as YHWH said YHWH HATES DIVORCE.

If someone does what YHWH HATES, not just once, but every day, don't think YHWH will be pleased. Nor that Yeshua will testify for them before His Father (YHWH).
Likewise, if 2 people get married and become one flesh, as YHWH SAYS,
and remain together as YHWH SAYS all their lives, this is good and true and faithful and right.

Even though YHWH said no one should break apart what YHWH has put together,
...
sad.... what happens anyway....

likewise, unless YHWH took free will away before someone died, they can potentially at any time in their life follow SATAN instead of JESUS, by their free will/ choice.

If they follow JESUS and REMAIN with HIM, no one can pull them out of His Care - that's true.
It does not contradict that they can turn away from Him and follow SATAN if they choose to, as many have done in the last 2000 years, and even Jesus disciples - in the New Testament, many of His disciples left Him when it "got too hard" for them to stay with Him.

This is even more true today, so many more billions not willing to "endure" or stay with Him for whatever reason.

Well written and clear above. Liked how you gave us the Bride of Christ representation.

In effect you may be saying as the Bride we can burn the pot roast from time to time due to our still fallen flesh. However committing adultery with Satan is a deal breaker. If so I cannot argue the logic.

I'm still looking at the Christ statement of "I never knew you." Which is affirmation He truly never knew who He speaks of. This is a very confirming statement there was never a relationship.

Something to consider. Something more monolithic and should cause us to continually examine ourselves.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm still looking at the Christ statement of "I never knew you." Which is affirmation He truly never knew who He speaks of. This is a very confirming statement there was never a relationship.

Something to consider. Something more monolithic and should cause us to continually examine ourselves.

Yes,
and consider the disciples who walked with Jesus along with Peter, James, John and the others -
yet when His Word got too hard to bear (don't be surprised - it 'confused' them, as it does billions of souls today who are misled and do not learn from Jesus nor from the Father in heaven) ,
they walked away from Him, and He (notably) did not try to stop them at all, nor (notably) did He (in Scripture, apparently) go after them later - He just let them leave Him...... never took their free wil away (same today with the billions who remain deceived on the wide road to destruction) ....

Would those disciples who left Jesus be ones He "never knew" ? < shrugs > perhaps.... Does it matter ? < shrugs > not really....

From His ,and from YHWH'S perfect all-knowing view, in His omniscience, He knew everyone's name before He created the world, even though no one was created yet - no one had been conceived in the womb yet, a gift of life from YHWH. (realizing that the heresy that people existed before being conceived is an abomination, contrary to all Scripture, and without any understanding) ....

Back on track, it doesn't matter what men say about osas, or such topics. It is their loss - they might come to the truth some day, as YHWH is gracious and forgiving. .....

 

[redleghunter]

Yes,
and consider the disciples who walked with Jesus along with Peter, James, John and the others -
yet when His Word got too hard to bear (don't be surprised - it 'confused' them, as it does billions of souls today who are misled and do not learn from Jesus nor from the Father in heaven) ,
they walked away from Him, and He (notably) did not try to stop them at all, nor (notably) did He (in Scripture, apparently) go after them later - He just let them leave Him...... never took their free wil away (same today with the billions who remain deceived on the wide road to destruction) ....

Would those disciples who left Jesus be ones He "never knew" ? < shrugs > perhaps.... Does it matter ? < shrugs > not really....

From His ,and from YHWH'S perfect all-knowing view, in His omniscience, He knew everyone's name before He created the world, even though no one was created yet - no one had been conceived in the womb yet, a gift of life from YHWH. (realizing that the heresy that people existed before being conceived is an abomination, contrary to all Scripture, and without any understanding) ....

Back on track, it doesn't matter what men say about osas, or such topics. It is their loss - they might come to the truth some day, as YHWH is gracious and forgiving. .....

Indeed YHWH is gracious, forgiving and longsuffering.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Your playing games.
Lets get to brass nails..
A person becomes a born again Christian .walking in and following the holy spirit.
Forsaking all sin as the spirit makes it known to them and not returning it.(sanctification) then for whatever event or reason they enjoy a sin (maybe porn or drugs or alcohol or money) they don't deal with it and cease.
They continue in it.it grows and gets worse. They make excuse and begin to reason it away they have moved into self deception .still they continue to practice that sin even though they know it IS sin .Now they are in a perpetual willful state of rebellion.
Then Suddenly one day the Lord returns ..in a day when they expect Not.and there they are laying with thier neighbors wife...
I assure you.they will not be saved no matter they began on that road to life and believed .no matter they continued to attend church heal the sick cast out devils. They left that path of truth when they chose to continue in thier sin and they self justified doing so with I was doctrines.
They will not be saved And you will never ever convince me otherwise.

Now to be fair..you might argue.they never were saved. And I would agree.
And that is frightening because it suggests most of the western styles church is also not saved.
So each of us should take account .trembling.and search out hearts whether we are IN the faith.

Because if we continue in the practice of sin .we are not yet saved.
We have not yet forsaken “our own way” and set out to follow JESUS.

Wait this doesn't feel right. I thought when we accepted Jesus Christ and we are born again and we are given the Holy Spirit that ALL of our sins past, present, and future were forgiven? I thought we ALL continue to sin AFTER we are saved? So how can what you said be true? If people who still "continue in thier sins" can't be saved than NOBODY IS SAVED. Plus, just what is continuing to live in your sins? I would like to know that. Because, we all still sin. You still are a slave to sin, I still am a slave to sin, everyone is. Even Paul admitted he still was a slave to sin. So, I don't understand what you mean. Can someone please explain?

 

[Adzinfi]

Wait this doesn't feel right. I thought when we accepted Jesus Christ and we are born again and we are given the Holy Spirit that ALL of our sins past, present, and future were forgiven? I thought we ALL continue to sin AFTER we are saved? So how can what you said be true? If people who still "continue in thier sins" can't be saved than NOBODY IS SAVED. Plus, just what is continuing to live in your sins? I would like to know that. Because, we all still sin. You still are a slave to sin, I still am a slave to sin, everyone is. Even Paul admitted he still was a slave to sin. So, I don't understand what you mean. Can someone please explain?

I'm not a slave to sin .neither was Paul.Paul is speaking in context of how things were BEFORE Christ..
Jesus came to save us from sin not leave us it's prisoner.

If a person is stil a slave to sin then they are not free.
Of they are not free then they are stil a captive of the kingdom of darkness and sin and they need to be saved.
Jesus set me Free from sin .
As a new creation (not the old one that served sin) I am free and have the authority to overcome .
That's also what Jesus makes us .overcomes and more then conquerors.
Jesus set me Free
FREE !
I never have to knowingly commit an act I know to be sin ever again .and I love him so much for doing so that I don't Want to do an act I know to be sin .I Want to do like Jesus did i love him .
I'm not sure which JESUS your talking about .but if your Jesus didnt set you free from sin then maybe your following the wrong one.
I used to be a drug addict..chain smoking cursing lying thieving angry porn addict.
But Jesus set me free I don't do any of those sins any more.my Jesus set me Free. He did not fail me on the cross.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I'm not a slave to sin .neither was Paul.Paul is speaking in context of how things were BEFORE Christ..
Jesus came to save us from sin not leave us it's prisoner.

If a person is stil a slave to sin then they are not free.
Of they are not free then they are stil a captive of the kingdom of darkness and sin and they need to be saved.
Jesus set me Free from sin .
As a new creation (not the old one that served sin) I am free and have the authority to overcome .
That's also what Jesus makes us .overcomes and more then conquerors.
Jesus set me Free
FREE !
I never have to knowingly commit an act I know to be sin ever again .and I love him so much for doing so that I don't Want to do an act I know to be sin .I Want to do like Jesus did i love him .
I'm not sure which JESUS your talking about .but if your Jesus didnt set you free from sin then maybe your following the wrong one.
I used to be a drug addict..chain smoking cursing lying thieving angry porn addict.
But Jesus set me free I don't do any of those sins any more.my Jesus set me Free. He did not fail me on the cross.

I see. Thank you for responding.

 

[mark kennedy]

Well written and clear above. Liked how you gave us the Bride of Christ representation.

In effect you may be saying as the Bride we can burn the pot roast from time to time due to our still fallen flesh. However committing adultery with Satan is a deal breaker. If so I cannot argue the logic.

I'm still looking at the Christ statement of "I never knew you." Which is affirmation He truly never knew who He speaks of. This is a very confirming statement there was never a relationship.

Something to consider. Something more monolithic and should cause us to continually examine ourselves.

Those Jesus never knew, were ministers, did a lot of great things for God according to them. You ever met or heard a preacher you just knew was a big phoney baloney? This must be the Great White throne, so they have had a thousand years to wonder what they are doing in hell. They knew church, they knew theology, bet they were some dynamite fund raisers but they never knew Christ in a personal way

 

[Kenny'sID]

and herein lies one of my pet peeves - redefining or expanding words.

Believe means precisely what it means. I can tell by the structure of your post that you have more than a casual understanding of the word believe. I would bet a dollar to a donut that you know full well that believe does not mean to believe and follow but means precisely what it means.

I see that several times you redefine words in your post. Why do you do that?

My pet peeve, going through all that and never once defining it yourself.

Cut to the chase...what does it mean?

Show me where I redefined and I'll tell you "why I did that" or if they were actually "redefined" at all or just didn't meet your criteria for definition. Better yet, give me your definition on any word in question. See I'm getting nothing from you on why exactly there is a problem with me, just that there is.

 

[Oldmantook]

Let's back up the truck on this. There is nothing in the text that says the sheep repents and is thus found. That's a fact.

However, the Big Fact is everyone in the Gospels who follow Jesus turn away from their previous lives and follow Him. That is repentance.

Jesus told Matthew to follow Him. Matthew repented by action by immediately dropping what he was doing and followed him. If that is not repentance I don't know what is.

Notice you could have told me that when the sheep willingly goes back with the Shepherd that is repentance because he is going on the Shepherd's terms...back in the fold with the 99.

Please don't jump the gun when I plainly point out when something is not clearly in the text. The important piece of the Good Shepherd is that He leaves the 99 to go and get the lost sheep. Meaning the beauty of this is Christ is a lover and pursuer of His sheep.

Your reply is problematic in that you would then have to explain how the lost sheep is found. The lost sheep originally belonged to the flock of other 99 sheep who need no repentance which can only describe believers - never unbelievers. The lone sheep then leaves the flock and becomes lost and is referred to as a sinner. Lost and sinner are terms descriptive of an unsaved/unbeliever. Therefore we have a saved person who belonged with the other 99 who need no repentance. This saved person then strayed and became a lost sinner according to the text - thus unsaved. The Shepherd does indeed get the sheep but you fail to account for how the sheep is found. Does not this now unsaved person first have to repent and turn around in order to be found? No sinner can be found unless he/she first repents, therefore this sheep had to repent in order to be found by the shepherd. If you are interpreting this passage as only applying to those who were never saved to begin with, the text clearly indicates otherwise as this sheep was originally a part of the other 99 who need no repentance.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

Scripture also warns against apostasy, turning away from Christ, and not shipwrecking our faith.

The question shouldn't then be which set of Scriptures is true, but rather how do we confess all of Scripture?

As a Lutheran I believe that we have complete confidence and assurance in Christ, through faith, on account of the indelible and irrevocable promises of God. I can therefore, because of the Gospel, have every confidence that I am saved, I belong to Christ, and if I am Christ's then I belong to God. And there is nothing which can pluck me from His hand, neither is there any power which can separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. But that does not mean it is impossible for me to fall away, if I deny my baptism, turn away from Christ, throw away my faith, then I throw away my salvation and become apostate.

If one says, "Well, then you never believed in the first place." Then we deny the confidence and assurance of the Gospel, no longer depending on God's grace and word to hold us and keep us, but rather holding to our own ability.

The problem with Eternal Security, as popularly taught, is that it denies the severe warning in Scripture about falling away and when confronted with the fact of real world apostasy it must attempt to rationalize it away which actually thwarts the assurance and hope of the Gospel. If two people are baptized and have faith in the same Christ, hoping in the same Gospel, and one of them jumps ship and abandons their faith and the other says, "Well they had no faith in the first place, and their baptism was ineffective, and the Gospel did nothing at all" then it denies all confidence in the Gospel and abandons all assurance found in Christ and His Word.

It is only in Christ and His Word that we have this hope, this confidence, this assurance--and we can indeed be confidence and have assurance in Him. That it is, in fact true, that none can pluck us from His hand--because His Word is true and certain and sure. And it is true, certain, and sure even of those who, at some point in their lives, throw it all away to shipwreck their faith--the Word of God is not made null because of the faithlessness of sinful man. The same Gospel falls upon the same soil, that in some cases weeds and thistles grow and choke it out, or birds come and eat the seed, does not make the seed worthless, or the Farmer who sowed that seed ineffective or false.

The apostate has not received a defective Gospel. And it is this same Gospel that we hope and pray will return him back--for we have One who will run to greet the long-lost prodigal. We have a Shepherd who will travel mile over mile over mile to find one lost little lamb.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[redleghunter]

The Shepherd does indeed get the sheep but you fail to account for how the sheep is found.

I don't fail to mention and nor does Christ. The text says the man goes out and finds. That literally means the man goes out looks around, sees the sheep and finds it.



Luke 15:1-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

 

[Danthemailman]

The problem with your interpretation is that the verse does not say "believe a little" as you wrote. It plainly reads believe for a while. Believe means believe - if only for a while. Believe in this verse is the exact same word for believe used in Jn 3:16. Pisteuo never refers to unbelievers or only those who believe a little.

The demons "believe" (pisteuo) that "there is one God" but they do not believe (pisteuo) on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. The word "pisteuo" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.

Luke 8:13 - But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth.

People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having root do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." *Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this - Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away.

John mentions certain people who believe "to some depth" but are not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief/faith in Jesus that "falls short of consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 in which their "belief" is obviously superficial in nature. Also, in John 8:31-59 where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in.

 

[Danthemailman]

The verse plainly states believe for a while. It does not say never believed. The verse states they fell away - fell away from what? How can they fall away from something/the faith if they never truly belonged to the faith in the first place? The verse states that they were tested. How is it that these unbelievers as you claim are tested? Only believers are tested.

Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. You can fall away from your profession of faith without truly belonging to the faith. In 1 John 2:19, we read they went out from us but they were not of us..

In 2 Corinthians 13:5, we read - Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test?

 

[Oldmantook]

I don't fail to mention and nor does Christ. The text says the man goes out and finds. That literally means the man goes out looks around, sees the sheep and finds it.



Luke 15:1-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

So your explanation entails that sinners can be found without repentance correct? Sorry but that goes against all scripture. If the Shepherd just goes around looking for lost sheep to be found without repentance required on the part of the sheep, then everyone would be saved wouldn't they?

 

[Oldmantook]

Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. You can fall away from your profession of faith without truly belonging to the faith. In 1 John 2:19, we read they went out from us but they were not of us..

In 2 Corinthians 13:5, we read - Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test?

Thank you for quoting 2 Cor 13:5 as ironically you cite a verse which just happens to prove the opposite of what you hold to be true. The Greek word for "fail the test" is the word "adokimos." Believers are to test themselves in order to determine if they are in the faith. The reason for this testing is to determine if indeed you fail the test. This test can in no way be construed as being directed to unbelievers because unbelievers have no faith to be tested to begin with. Only believers possess a faith to be tested. Thus this verse indicates that it is possible for believers to fail the testing of their faith. If you don't that believe that believers can fail the test you would be at odds with the Apostle Paul who wrote this about himself:
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, so that having preached to others I myself should not be disqualified (adokimos). Paul plainly wrote that he disciplined his body/flesh in order that he would not become adokimos (disqualified/fail the test). You would never claim that Paul never truly belonged to the faith would you?

 

[redleghunter]

So your explanation entails that sinners can be found without repentance correct? Sorry but that goes against all scripture. If the Shepherd just goes around looking for lost sheep to be found without repentance required on the part of the sheep, then everyone would be saved wouldn't they?

You need to read the entire passage I quoted. The sheep does repent as later Jesus says so in the last two verses.

Which makes sense. We are told God convicts us of our sin.

Let the beauty and love of the Lost Sheep sink in for a few moments. He throws the sheep on His shoulders. Wow.