Once saved always saved

[eleos1954]

I maybe think that someone can lose salvation, but it would be in an extreme situation. Like if someone becomes an atheist or something.
I do not want to make any assumptions until I know for sure.

Yes, it can be lost, if someone totally quits listening to the Holy Spirit, that is the unpardonable sin.

Another thing to consider is Lucifer and the 1/3 angels who were cast out of heaven. They lost their salvation .... and God will destroy them along with the earth.

 

[bcbsr]

That is why if you are born of God, you will not continue to practice sin/habitually sin. But if you do you will sow what you reap.

You say confidently that those born of God will not practice sin. But then you contradict yourself saying "if you do you will reap what you sow." If those born of God will not practice sin, why the "if" statement. It's because you don't actually believe that those born of God will not practice sin.

IF a person practices sin he simply hasn't been born of God. Those born of God have lost the ability to practice sin.

 

[Oldmantook]

Jesus never dealt in logical fallacies as the Divine Logos.

That is indeed true as Jesus is the all-wise Shepherd but we as sheep are pretty dumb and are prone to falling prey to logical fallacies as you have now demonstrated.

 

[Kota]

What did the first Christians have to say? If we're so unsure of what everything in the Bible means today, then our first resource should be the first Christians. See what they had to say and you'll find your answer.

This is what the first Christians believed.

• Salvation is to be found in Jesus alone.
• We are saved by grace through faith.
• Works matter—faith without works is dead. However, we do not earn our salvation through our deeds.
• Our sins are forgiven when the believer is immersed in water.
• After baptism, we must remain faithful to GOD or, by returning to a life of sin, we will lose our salvation.

 

[Oldmantook]

You say confidently that those born of God will not practice sin. But then you contradict yourself saying "if you do you will reap what you sow." If those born of God will not practice sin, why the "if" statement. It's because you don't actually believe that those born of God will not practice sin.

IF a person practices sin he simply hasn't been born of God. Those born of God have lost the ability to practice sin.

Do you not understand conditional clauses in the scriptures? I never wrote that those born of God will not practice sin as it is indeed possible for believers to practice sin; engage in habitual sin. Must I remind you that Paul himself warned the brethren in Rom 8:13 that those believers who are living according to the flesh, WILL DIE. Living according to the flesh means the practice of sin in our lives. IF we do so, warns Paul, we will spiritually die. If we do so, warns Paul, we reap what we sow. The Apostle Paul in Rom 8:13 directly contradicts your false belief that "those born of God have lost the ability to practice sin." If it were not possible for believers to live according to the flesh/practice sin, why would Paul warn the brethren against doing it? That would ridiculous.

 

[redleghunter]

That is indeed true as Jesus is the all-wise Shepherd but we as sheep are pretty dumb and are prone to falling prey to logical fallacies as you have now demonstrated.

His sheep hear His voice and follow Him . He loses none of them.

 

[redleghunter]

You say confidently that those born of God will not practice sin. But then you contradict yourself saying "if you do you will reap what you sow." If those born of God will not practice sin, why the "if" statement. It's because you don't actually believe that those born of God will not practice sin.

IF a person practices sin he simply hasn't been born of God. Those born of God have lost the ability to practice sin.

The "if" statements are what form straw man arguments to promote an eisegesis.

 

[bcbsr]

The Bible says, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9 NASB

You yourself said in post#98, "if you are born of God, you will not continue to practice sin/habitually sin."

But now you both contradict both what the Bible says, and what you yourself have said by saying,

I never wrote that those born of God will not practice sin as it is indeed possible for believers to practice sin; engage in habitual sin..

Seeing as you explicitly reject what John clearly stated, I think we're done.

 

[redleghunter]

Do you not understand conditional clauses in the scriptures? I never wrote that those born of God will not practice sin as it is indeed possible for believers to practice sin; engage in habitual sin. Must I remind you that Paul himself warned the brethren in Rom 8:13 that those believers who are living according to the flesh, WILL DIE. Living according to the flesh means the practice of sin in our lives. IF we do so, warns Paul, we will spiritually die. If we do so, warns Paul, we reap what we sow. The Apostle Paul in Rom 8:13 directly contradicts your false belief that "those born of God have lost the ability to practice sin." If it were not possible for believers to live according to the flesh/practice sin, why would Paul warn the brethren against doing it? That would ridiculous.

One verse rodeo commonly known as eisegesis.

Let's look at the text in context and then we can continue on to see Paul explain the sovereign work of Grace in His adopted children. You quoted Romans 8:13. Here's the rest of the story.

ROMANS 8: NASB
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

A lot of "IF" statements up there. One is either a child of God and if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us. If we have the Spirit. If Christ is in you. Not if you lose the Spirit or Christ leaves you. He is contrasting those who are children of God and who are not.

Once again eisegesis fails in the light of context. Here's why continuing in Romans 8:

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

The Bible says, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9 NASB

You yourself said in post#98, "if you are born of God, you will not continue to practice sin/habitually sin."

But now you both contradict both what the Bible says, and what you yourself have said by saying,


Seeing as you explicitly reject what John clearly stated, I think we're done.

There is a possibility some look at these verses and assume a materialistic view. Paul in three places made a distinction between our inner and outer man. For example:

2 Corinthians 4: NASB

7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death works in us, but life in you.

13But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, 14knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. 15For all things arefor your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

16Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[redleghunter]

This is what the first Christians believed.

• Salvation is to be found in Jesus alone.
• We are saved by grace through faith.
• Works matter—faith without works is dead. However, we do not earn our salvation through our deeds.
• Our sins are forgiven when the believer is immersed in water.
• After baptism, we must remain faithful to GOD or, by returning to a life of sin, we will lose our salvation.

If one returns to a life of sin what exactly does that look like? How many sins, for how long?

What usually constitutes one leading a life of sin?

 

[redleghunter]

Judas technically was a baptized Christian as he would never have ever found a seat besides the disciples if he wasn’t. Jesus called him a devil because he knew of Judas’s eventual betrayal. Judas was called by Christ for a purpose and that purpose was that so all things may be fulfilled including his death at the cross. Nothing went wrong with the Baptism of Simon Magnus, something was wrong with the flesh not the Spirit.

There was no Christian Baptism until Pentecost. Judas was dead.

Simon Magus was baptized but not a believer.

 

[redleghunter]

We don’t necessarily lose salvation, but God may revoke his covenant in certain people. As he did with heretics.

Yet the New Covenant is in Christ's blood. Would not any revocation be a result of one denying the efficacious nature of His saving blood?

 

[redleghunter]

[Jhn 6:70 NLT] 70 Then Jesus said, "I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil."

Jesus knew Judas was a devil and yet He chose him. Why?

 

[Barney2.0]

There was no Christian Baptism until Pentecost. Judas was dead.

Simon Magus was baptized but not a believer.

There was Baptism at the time of Jesus as it was required for salvation, how can we be sure Simon Magnus didn’t at one point believe and not believe?

 

[Barney2.0]

Yet the New Covenant is in Christ's blood. Would not any revocation be a result of one denying the efficacious nature of His saving blood?

One could sincerely accept the blood of Christ shed on the cross and reject it after time. In which case the New Covenant would be revoked.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Jesus sums up this topic pretty well in John 6:37-40. And in John 10:27-29. I believe in Eternal security because not only was it a doctrine taught by the Apostles but Jesus himself also talked about it throughout the Bible.

 

[redleghunter]

There was Baptism at the time of Jesus as it was required for salvation, how can we be sure Simon Magnus didn’t at one point believe and not believe?

John's baptism of repentance. Trinitarian baptism was after Christ's death and Resurrection. He commanded it in Matthew 28.

 

[redleghunter]

One could sincerely accept the blood of Christ shed on the cross and reject it after time. In which case the New Covenant would be revoked.

You mean revert to unbelief?

 

[EJ M]

Did Calvin come up with the 5 points?

Yes,
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Perverse heresy,
Basically says God alone chooses who He will save, Man has nothing to do with being saved.
And says God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned, man does not have a choice in salvation.
I'm very glad the God I serve said "whosoever will, may come"