Once saved always saved

[redleghunter]

People can lose salvation, the biggest example of this is Judas, a baptized Christian who ended up selling Jesus to his own death.

Yet Jesus called Judas a devil and the son of Perdition. He called him a devil before His betrayal.

Plus he was not a Christian and never received Trinitarian Christian baptism. In fact we don’t know if he even received John’s baptism of repentance.

And do we know if Judas was ever called by Christ to follow Him?

Now Simon Magus (Acts 8) was baptized but then when trying to buy the Power of the Holy Spirit was condemned by Peter for thinking such. What went “wrong” with his baptism?

 

[redleghunter]

People can lose salvation,

Truly we can’t “lose” something God bestows on us. I think the proper terminology for your position is God can revoke our standing as children of God and make us once again children of wrath.

Can you show me how this happens?

 

[Thess]

People can lose salvation, the biggest example of this is Judas, a baptized Christian who ended up selling Jesus to his own death.

I see what you're saying, but none of the disciples believed. Their hearts were hardened so that they couldn't. What a gift, for if God had not, they would all 12 have been slaughtered that day that Jesus was tortured and murdered. Nah, none of them were true believers....it wasn't the right time.

 

[Barney2.0]

Yet Jesus called Judas a devil and the son of Perdition. He called him a devil before His betrayal.

Plus he was not a Christian and never received Trinitarian Christian baptism. In fact we don’t know if he even received John’s baptism of repentance.

And do we know if Judas was ever called by Christ to follow Him?

Now Simon Magus (Acts 8) was baptized but then when trying to buy the Power of the Holy Spirit was condemned by Peter for thinking such. What went “wrong” with his baptism?

Judas technically was a baptized Christian as he would never have ever found a seat besides the disciples if he wasn’t. Jesus called him a devil because he knew of Judas’s eventual betrayal. Judas was called by Christ for a purpose and that purpose was that so all things may be fulfilled including his death at the cross. Nothing went wrong with the Baptism of Simon Magnus, something was wrong with the flesh not the Spirit.

 

[Barney2.0]

Truly we can’t “lose” something God bestows on us. I think the proper terminology for your position is God can revoke our standing as children of God and make us once again children of wrath.

Can you show me how this happens?

We don’t necessarily lose salvation, but God may revoke his covenant in certain people. As he did with heretics.

 

[Thess]

And do we know if Judas was ever called by Christ to follow Him?

[Jhn 6:70 NLT] 70 Then Jesus said, "I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is once saved always saved biblical? Is it a false doctrine? Some say it’s false and some say it is true. What bothers me is some say that it leads to hell.
I know that we are saved by Chirst and nothing more. I do not think works are necessary. Some bible verses seem to be for and against once saved always saved. I’m trying to talk to my pastor about this because it’s hard to know what to trust at times. Here is a link of why I was asking.
Backsliding or Backslider GOD WANTS YOU BACK
ETERNAL SECURITY Doctrine and Grace is False

To say that "Once saved, always saved" is a true doctrine is a little bit like saying that chewing one's food before swallowing helps one to live. It is true, but misleading. Chewing your food is not the point --ingesting food is.

"Once saved, always saved" leaves open the method and reason for salvation, and simply points out an irrelevant fact. OF COURSE a saved person will always be saved, but the reason a person is saved is because of God's choice --and God's reason for creating.

Whatever God sets out to do, he will indeed accomplish, and cannot be deterred from accomplishing it. Whatever does not happen, he never intended to happen. If God can be stopped from accomplishing what from the foundation of the earth he has begun, then he is not God.

But more than this, Salvation is simply God-made, God-done, God working in a person. It depends on God alone. His reason for creating is for his own sake, to show his power and greatness and beauty and glory, in that he has created for himself a dwelling place (and many other names describing the same result --his particular creation-- the Bride of Christ. This is not a set of random, nor of deserving, people drawn from a pool of possibles, but rather simply those he created for this particular purpose.

Again, it is important to understand this is for his sake, and not ours by comparison, though it is consumingly relevant as regards us, and that it does not depend on our decision. However, to say that works are not necessary, or that we do not decide, are also misleading. Works and the decision by the believer will inevitably occur, if a person belongs to Christ. As will perseverance, and obedience, and freedom from the slavery of sin, and so on --but these are the result of the change of heart that occurs as "regeneration" --these ARE the new creation, and not the cause of the new creation. We MUST obey; therefore, we do obey, and yes, it does take our effort and will, but this too is the work of God.

You see, God's economy is not our logistics.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is once saved always saved biblical? Is it a false doctrine? Some say it’s false and some say it is true. What bothers me is some say that it leads to hell.
I know that we are saved by Chirst and nothing more. I do not think works are necessary. Some bible verses seem to be for and against once saved always saved. I’m trying to talk to my pastor about this because it’s hard to know what to trust at times. Here is a link of why I was asking.
Backsliding or Backslider GOD WANTS YOU BACK
ETERNAL SECURITY Doctrine and Grace is False

Do not trust "Once saved, always saved"; Trust God's decision, not yours.

We see everything backwards.

 

[Oldmantook]

Went to your eternal security page. Think you nail it here:

“Thus the heretic's position concerning such verses is no more than a strawman argument in that there doesn't actually exist anyone born of God who continues to live a lifestyle of sin.

But there are those who use the reverse logic saying that they knew so and so who was "genuinely" saved, but then continued to live a lifestyle of sin and on that basis they derive their doctrine. In contrast I encourage people to derive their doctrine from the Bible and scrutinize their experience in light of what the Bible teaches.

For example in this case concerning an alleged believer continuing to live in sin, I would call into question whether they are genuine believers. In fact John goes even further saying that such people were never saved to begin with. For he says, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19”

Your argument is based on a logical fallacy otherwise known as an overgeneralization. Yes, there are SOME who went out from us but were never of us; i.e. not genuine believers as John pointed out. However, that does not automatically entail that ALL who depart were never of us. In fact in the same letter, John points out that those believers who practice sin are of the devil.
"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil" (1 Jn 3:8-9).
"Little children" is term of endearment reserved exclusively for believers; not unbelievers. John warn believers that those who practice sin are of the devil. John warns believers that habitual sin leads to spiritual death.

 

[Oldmantook]

OF COURSE a saved person will always be saved

A saved person will not always be saved as he/she may choose to disobey. An unbeliever who has not been regenerated by the Spirit has no choice but to disobey. A believer regenerated by the Spirit now has the choice to obey or disobey God. He/she may choose to live according to the flesh, or instead choose to live according to the flesh. Paul warns in Rom 8:13 that those believers who choose to live according to the flesh will die; i.e. spiritual death.

We MUST obey; therefore, we do obey, and yes, it does take our effort and will, but this too is the work of God.

Circular reasoning.

 

[Mark Quayle]

A saved person will not always be saved as he/she may choose to disobey. An unbeliever who has not been regenerated by the Spirit has no choice but to disobey. A believer regenerated by the Spirit now has the choice to obey or disobey God. He/she may choose to live according to the flesh, or instead choose to live according to the flesh. Paul warns in Rom 8:13 that those believers who choose to live according to the flesh will die; i.e. spiritual death.


Circular reasoning.

Not really. The saved person is saved by God. He is, or he is not. Regeneration is not revoked. It depends only on God. (To do something one thinks of as obedience is only filthy rags, if he is not regenerated, and even if he is regenerated, to do "apparent obedience" may be only effort or once again trying to earn status with God --once again, filthy rags.)

Those who believe may only believe as surely as the demons believe. They may well display what passes for fruit of the Spirit and enjoy some of the results of their "good" deeds, but they are corrupt throughout, and not true believers --"followers of Christ", religious, but workers of iniquity --not belonging to God. Regeneration is not subsequent to ones decision, but is the Cause of the decision. Regeneration is GOD IN ME.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yet Jesus called Judas a devil and the son of Perdition. He called him a devil before His betrayal.

Plus he was not a Christian and never received Trinitarian Christian baptism. In fact we don’t know if he even received John’s baptism of repentance.

And do we know if Judas was ever called by Christ to follow Him?

Now Simon Magus (Acts 8) was baptized but then when trying to buy the Power of the Holy Spirit was condemned by Peter for thinking such. What went “wrong” with his baptism?

Judas was already a child of perdition when he was called and I'm convinced Jesus called him.

We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (John 6:69-70)
​

When you think about it, the book of John really focuses on discussions of Jesus. He has just confronted a group that wanted to make him king because of the miracle of the loaves. When Jesus insists that they must believe in him, many of them turn away and will not follow him anymore. Charged with emotion he turns to his Apostles and asks, will you leave also. Peter says, where would we go, you have the words of eternal life. Then Jesus makes this ominous statement, one of you is a devil, doesn't that just send shivers down your spine. In the Upper Room Jesus tells them one of you is going to betray me, of course the group raises objections, of course eleven of them would never do such a thing. There is no indication this man was ever saved and the Biblical accounts indicate he was a child of perdition when Jesus called him, what better way to train ministers of the gospel then to show them how to deal with false brethren. He washed this mans feet, gave him the seat of honor at the Last Supper and got up and sold him out for 30 pieces of silver, which btw, was prophesied.

Jesus called Judas for a reason, certain men will creep in unawares as Jude warns us. I mean have you never had a friend stab you in the back? I read a miserable story about a man who had a ministry partner, together they founded a church and everything was going along great until his partner had him pushed out. Strangely he wasn't bitter and went to pursue other ministry opportunities but that has got to hurt.

That's one of the hazards of ministry, one Jesus faced on purpose. Jesus turned the other cheek, Judas had done him wrong before, Jesus overlooked it. I'm sure he could have confronted him for dipping in the till, most of us would, but Jesus never did. He could have looked at Judas and said I know what your going to do, I'm not going to let you get away with it. But that wasn't the purpose of calling him in the first place, the gospel first reveals sin then gives you the choice of sin or righteousness. Judas had already made his choice, Jesus never tried to talk him out of it or confront him, he just let him do what he always knew he would.

It ended badly for Judas, you know he probably hung there for days after he hung himself. No one wanted to defile themselves because of Passover and a couple of automatic Sabbaths. That's probably why his bowls gushed forth when he was cut down, he was bloated from hanging there for several days. So while Jesus was being raised from the dead Judas was swinging from a tree. These devils come to a wretched end, I think that is probably the most important lesson from Judas.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

To say that "Once saved, always saved" is a true doctrine is a little bit like saying that chewing one's food before swallowing helps one to live. It is true, but misleading. Chewing your food is not the point --ingesting food is.

"Once saved, always saved" leaves open the method and reason for salvation, and simply points out an irrelevant fact. OF COURSE a saved person will always be saved, but the reason a person is saved is because of God's choice --and God's reason for creating.

Whatever God sets out to do, he will indeed accomplish, and cannot be deterred from accomplishing it. Whatever does not happen, he never intended to happen. If God can be stopped from accomplishing what from the foundation of the earth he has begun, then he is not God.

But more than this, Salvation is simply God-made, God-done, God working in a person. It depends on God alone. His reason for creating is for his own sake, to show his power and greatness and beauty and glory, in that he has created for himself a dwelling place (and many other names describing the same result --his particular creation-- the Bride of Christ. This is not a set of random, nor of deserving, people drawn from a pool of possibles, but rather simply those he created for this particular purpose.

Again, it is important to understand this is for his sake, and not ours by comparison, though it is consumingly relevant as regards us, and that it does not depend on our decision. However, to say that works are not necessary, or that we do not decide, are also misleading. Works and the decision by the believer will inevitably occur, if a person belongs to Christ. As will perseverance, and obedience, and freedom from the slavery of sin, and so on --but these are the result of the change of heart that occurs as "regeneration" --these ARE the new creation, and not the cause of the new creation. We MUST obey; therefore, we do obey, and yes, it does take our effort and will, but this too is the work of God.

You see, God's economy is not our logistics.

There is no such doctrine of OSAS, I've never seen any such thing. Eternal security is synonymous with eternal life and it's just a confidence that God will preserve believers until final judgment. What people call OSAS sounds a lot more like easy believism or Lordship salvation, both require nothing of the individual beyond a profession of faith. That's not how Calvinism works, we just put more emphasis on God's grace and sovereign control, less on the things you do to maintain salvation, you do good works because of salvation, not to earn it. Grace justifies, grace sanctifies and grace empowers the saints for service, all Christian traditions recognize this.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There is no such doctrine of OSAS, I've never seen any such thing. Eternal security is synonymous with eternal life and it's just a confidence that God will preserve believers until final judgment. What people call OSAS sounds a lot more like easy believism or Lordship salvation, both require nothing of the individual beyond a profession of faith. That's not how Calvinism works, we just put more emphasis on God's grace and sovereign control, less on the things you do to maintain salvation, you do good works because of salvation, not to earn it. Grace justifies, grace sanctifies and grace empowers the saints for service, all Christian traditions recognize this.

Agreed, except, Reformed doctrine does not allow for "maintaining one's salvation" as such. It does claim, quite happily, even, that one will inevitably persevere, and yes, that that takes no end of effort, but it too is the work of God.

But we do make statements for the purpose of summing up a truth, (see, "Trinity", "TULIP", etc) that are not made in Scripture as such, and as such, these statements are suspect, though perhaps useful. But, I agree, "OSAS" is not even particularly useful, and curtails good thinking in favor of attempted security. It is misleading, even if not untrue.

 

[mark kennedy]

Agreed, except, Reformed doctrine does not allow for "maintaining one's salvation" as such. It does claim, quite happily, even, that one will inevitably persevere, and yes, that that takes no end of effort, but it too is the work of God.

But we do make statements for the purpose of summing up a truth, (see, "Trinity", "TULIP", etc) that are not made in Scripture as such, and as such, these statements are suspect, though perhaps useful. But, I agree, "OSAS" is not even particularly useful, and curtails good thinking in favor of attempted security. It is misleading, even if not untrue.

Calvinists put a great deal of emphasis on God's sovereignty, once your a child of God nothing wrestles you from God's hand. That doesn't mean you won't be disciplined, the New Testament is clear you definitely will answer for your sin, both in this life and the one to come. I think a Christian pays a higher price for certain sins then an unbeliever will, just not the ultimate price of perdition. I would never discourage someone from working out their salvation in fear and trembling, regardless of what theological system we identify with. I just don't think God goes around revoking peoples salvation because they fell into some kind of carnality, I don't think he takes it lightly either. I think there is going to be a terrible moment in final judgment when believers will stand before God and their whole lives do a pass and review. I think we will see how much damage our sin has done and the potential we squandered and I do mean all of us. Job had a terrible confrontation with God, he seems furious. Job is practically begging not to have to answer and God says Gird up they loins like a man. God is telling him on your feet, I'm going to ask you questions and you will answer them. Job finally just confessed he was wrong and God turns to Job's friends saying, you have not spoken of me rightly like my man Job.

We all need to take the dangers of sin seriously and encourage one another to let our faith purify us more in our word thoughts and deeds. But the idea of salvation being revoked is just not how I see the New Testament witness, although many a professing Christian departed the faith, I don't think they were ever saved in the first place.

 

[Oldmantook]

Not really. The saved person is saved by God. He is, or he is not. Regeneration is not revoked. It depends only on God. (To do something one thinks of as obedience is only filthy rags, if he is not regenerated, and even if he is regenerated, to do "apparent obedience" may be only effort or once again trying to earn status with God --once again, filthy rags.)

Those who believe may only believe as surely as the demons believe. They may well display what passes for fruit of the Spirit and enjoy some of the results of their "good" deeds, but they are corrupt throughout, and not true believers --"followers of Christ", religious, but workers of iniquity --not belonging to God. Regeneration is not subsequent to ones decision, but is the Cause of the decision. Regeneration is GOD IN ME.

You voice your opinion which is fine but it directly contradicts with Paul's warning to the brethren in Rom 8:13. Your view must reconcile with all of Scripture as we both know that the scriptures do not contradict each other. Therefore, you must deal with that verse which denies your view.

 

[Tolworth John]

Is once saved always saved biblical?

It is not a vital doctrine, it is ok to agree to disagree about this.

Personaly, when one consides all that Jesus went through inorder to save us. I find it unbelievable to think that he would then let someone, who on a whim,just give up on Christianity.

 

[mark kennedy]

It is not a vital doctrine, it is ok to agree to disagree about this.

Personaly, when one consides all that Jesus went through inorder to save us. I find it unbelievable to think that he would then let someone, who on a whim,just give up on Christianity.

That's a professing believer that departs from the faith, I don't know what to tell you about them. It's a lot different if you come to saving faith, I don't think such a person is capable of departing from the faith anymore then I believe a child of perdition is capable of coming to saving faith.

 

[Tolworth John]

hat's a professing believer that departs from the faith

That is a contradiction. If they believed Jesus is the only way to be saved, how can a believer depart from what they know to be true.
If they say it is not true, did they ever believe in what is not true.

 

[mark kennedy]

That is a contradiction. If they believed Jesus is the only way to be saved, how can a believer depart from what they know to be true.
If they say it is not true, did they ever believe in what is not true.

That's not a contradiction as much as something we really don't really know.