Once saved always saved

[redleghunter]

There is verses that imply conditionial security and some that imply unconditional security. I’m not sure of which position to take so that’s why I am trying to read things from both sides and then make my decision after careful study. Do you think that conditional security doctrine leads to hell?

We know God is not a God of confusion. There are no contradictions other than the ones we create.

The logical harmony is such a person who sooner or later rejects Christ is an apostate.

The apostle John addresses this:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)

I think one of the greatest deceptions in Christianity today is what is called Decisonal Regeneration:

What is decisional regeneration / decision theology?

You are right though. Like the sower scattering the seed, we don’t know the hearts of others. We can only observe the fruits of a brother or sister in Christ. And the fruit comes from the Vine which is Christ lest we boast of it.

 

[Oldmantook]

His sheep hear His voice and follow Him . He loses none of them.

Only if they LISTEN and FOLLOW - Jn 10:27.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yet some here make an entire theology on the supposed child of God going back to full blown sinful living. I’m just trying to find a NT example of such a person.

I guess you never heard of the prodigal son.

 

[Oldmantook]

A lot of "IF" statements up there. One is either a child of God and if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us. If we have the Spirit. If Christ is in you. Not if you lose the Spirit or Christ leaves you. He is contrasting those who are children of God and who are not.

Yes a lot of If statements - which you ignore. You continue to ignore v.13. Why is that?? If you claim v.13 does not apply to believers because it applies to those who don't have the Spirit and are unsaved, that is impossible. Why? Because ONLY BELIEVERS have the choice IF to live according to the Spirit OR IF to live according to the flesh. If Paul were only addressing unbelievers, he would have had to use the word SINCE instead of IF. Unbelievers do not have the Spirit, therefore they can only live according to the flesh and have no choice thus Paul would have wrote SINCE you live according to the flesh, you will die. "IF" CAN ONLY APPLY to BELIEVERS hence your interpretation/belief is erroneous. Explain that away if you can.
The rest of chapter 8 verifies v.13. Verses 38-39 does not mention sin because sin does separate from God.

 

[Oldmantook]

You yourself said in post#98, "if you are born of God, you will not continue to practice sin/habitually sin."

Yes if you are born of God you will not continually sin. I NEVER said that means that you were never a believer in the first place, as that is what you claim - not me. If you are born of God you will still occasionally sin because no one is without sin. However those born of God do not practice sin, because if they practice sin, they will spiritually die according to Rom 8:13. Comprende?

But now you both contradict both what the Bible says, and what you yourself have said by saying,[/QUOTE]
No, based on your misunderstanding which you now hopefully comprehend.

Seeing as you explicitly reject what John clearly stated, I think we're done.

What did John explicitly state? That anyone who practices sin is OF THE DEVIL? I agree with that but you are the one who rejects it.
Any more questions? You should be able to defend your doctrine.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is once saved always saved biblical? Is it a false doctrine? Some say it’s false and some say it is true. What bothers me is some say that it leads to hell.
I know that we are saved by Chirst and nothing more. I do not think works are necessary. Some bible verses seem to be for and against once saved always saved. I’m trying to talk to my pastor about this because it’s hard to know what to trust at times. Here is a link of why I was asking.
Backsliding or Backslider GOD WANTS YOU BACK
ETERNAL SECURITY Doctrine and Grace is False

An absence of works is an absence of faith my friend. James 2:14-26 and John 15:1-10 are evidence that works are required for salvation. Not because we are saved by works but because a genuine faith undoubtedly produces works. So a person who doesn’t do good works does not have a genuine faith. They are not abiding in Christ.

 

[Kota]

An absence of works is an absence of faith my friend. James 2:14-26 and John 15:1-10 are evidence that works are required for salvation. Not because we are saved by works but because a genuine faith undoubtedly produces works. So a person who doesn’t do good works does not have a genuine faith. They are not abiding in Christ.

Are you saying you need works to be saved or not? I think I am misunderstanding what you are saying

 

[redleghunter]

Only if they LISTEN and FOLLOW - Jn 10:27.

He said so.

 

[redleghunter]

I guess you never heard of the prodigal son.

He was a believer before he left?

 

[redleghunter]

Yes a lot of If statements - which you ignore. You continue to ignore v.13. Why is that??

I didn’t. I put it in context. Now address the full context.

 

[redleghunter]

"IF" CAN ONLY APPLY to BELIEVERS hence your interpretation/belief is erroneous. Explain that away if you can.

No explanation necessary as you completely ignored Paul’s exhibition to the Romans on the distinction between those who are in Christ and those who are not. He is teaching them not warning them their new found faith was in jeopardy.

He is employing a teaching method.

If one has the Spirit then this

If one does not have the Spirit then this

Then reassuring them that the Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit we are children of God.

 

[redleghunter]

An absence of works is an absence of faith my friend. James 2:14-26 and John 15:1-10 are evidence that works are required for salvation. Not because we are saved by works but because a genuine faith undoubtedly produces works. So a person who doesn’t do good works does not have a genuine faith. They are not abiding in Christ.

What if a person is comatose?

 

[Mark Quayle]

You voice your opinion which is fine but it directly contradicts with Paul's warning to the brethren in Rom 8:13. Your view must reconcile with all of Scripture as we both know that the scriptures do not contradict each other. Therefore, you must deal with that verse which denies your view.

We've got a misunderstanding going on here. How does anything I said directly contradict Rom 8:13?

 

[redleghunter]

You voice your opinion which is fine but it directly contradicts with Paul's warning to the brethren in Rom 8:13. Your view must reconcile with all of Scripture as we both know that the scriptures do not contradict each other. Therefore, you must deal with that verse which denies your view.

That’s completely a self contradiction.

You tell someone who actually provided context to your inquiry they have to reconcile their point with the rest of Scriptures yet make an entire theology out of one verse.

You are telling him he has to use the remainder of the Bible to refute your one verse eisegesis in Romans 8:13.

 

[redleghunter]

Judas was already a child of perdition when he was called and I'm convinced Jesus called him.

We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (John 6:69-70)
​

When you think about it, the book of John really focuses on discussions of Jesus. He has just confronted a group that wanted to make him king because of the miracle of the loaves. When Jesus insists that they must believe in him, many of them turn away and will not follow him anymore. Charged with emotion he turns to his Apostles and asks, will you leave also. Peter says, where would we go, you have the words of eternal life. Then Jesus makes this ominous statement, one of you is a devil, doesn't that just send shivers down your spine. In the Upper Room Jesus tells them one of you is going to betray me, of course the group raises objections, of course eleven of them would never do such a thing. There is no indication this man was ever saved and the Biblical accounts indicate he was a child of perdition when Jesus called him, what better way to train ministers of the gospel then to show them how to deal with false brethren. He washed this mans feet, gave him the seat of honor at the Last Supper and got up and sold him out for 30 pieces of silver, which btw, was prophesied.

Jesus called Judas for a reason, certain men will creep in unawares as Jude warns us. I mean have you never had a friend stab you in the back? I read a miserable story about a man who had a ministry partner, together they founded a church and everything was going along great until his partner had him pushed out. Strangely he wasn't bitter and went to pursue other ministry opportunities but that has got to hurt.

That's one of the hazards of ministry, one Jesus faced on purpose. Jesus turned the other cheek, Judas had done him wrong before, Jesus overlooked it. I'm sure he could have confronted him for dipping in the till, most of us would, but Jesus never did. He could have looked at Judas and said I know what your going to do, I'm not going to let you get away with it. But that wasn't the purpose of calling him in the first place, the gospel first reveals sin then gives you the choice of sin or righteousness. Judas had already made his choice, Jesus never tried to talk him out of it or confront him, he just let him do what he always knew he would.

It ended badly for Judas, you know he probably hung there for days after he hung himself. No one wanted to defile themselves because of Passover and a couple of automatic Sabbaths. That's probably why his bowls gushed forth when he was cut down, he was bloated from hanging there for several days. So while Jesus was being raised from the dead Judas was swinging from a tree. These devils come to a wretched end, I think that is probably the most important lesson from Judas.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Excellent exhibition Mark.

I asked the question if Jesus chose Judas (He did) because from every Gospel reference we have on Judas, his betrayal was to fulfill the Scriptures. He was predestined to be that guy who would betray the Christ. Yet he willfully complied with the heart he had.

 

[mark kennedy]

Excellent exhibition Mark.

I asked the question if Jesus chose Judas (He did) because from every Gospel reference we have on Judas, his betrayal was to fulfill the Scriptures. He was predestined to be that guy who would betray the Christ. Yet he willfully complied with the heart he had.

Jesus gave him every opportunity to relent, Judas chose otherwise. Anyone interested in Christian ministry or doctrine will have to face this, I think that's the whole point. Judas was like the scorpion that stung the frog and they both died, in the end, the scorpion confessed, it's my character. He was a child of perdition when he was called, that much I'm sure of and did what his character dictated, betrayal.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Barney2.0]

You mean revert to unbelief?

Yes.

 

[Barney2.0]

John's baptism of repentance. Trinitarian baptism was after Christ's death and Resurrection. He commanded it in Matthew 28.

Baptism was still taking place at the time of Jesus regardless if it was Trinitarian Baptism or not.

 

[redleghunter]

I'll give this scenario.

You're in the middle of the sea, and you crying for help. Someone heard you, decided to swim to you and give you a life jacket. Can you say you are saved? Yes. But can you say that you're guaranteed safe? Only if you follow the instructions of the person that is saving you. Once you are in the dry ground you are safe.

There are scenarios that you could have done something foolish, and you lose grip of the lifeguard, and you drown and die. The tide could still take you away. Point is you have that life jacket didn't negate the fact that you are still in the water and can still face danger. And what if I decided that even when I'm about to reach the shore, you wanted to run back into the water? Maybe you left a special necklace and wanted it back. It would be as if you were never saved.

This is how I view that argument. Those who have an ear, let him hear.

Romans 8:

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

Granted that Calvin gets must of his stuff from Augustine, who was wrong on many points. But concerning Elections Augustine differed from Calvin in that he believed election was based on God's foreknowledge of the person's merits whereas Calvin doesn't, which is kind of the subject at hand.

Wikipedia says of Augustine "He believed God's predestination was based on God's foreknowledge of every individual's merits"

So invoking Augustine is counter productive to your position.

This does not wash with Augustine’s
On the Predestination of the Saints (Book I)

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine)

The introductory has this:

That the predestinated are called by some certain calling peculiar to the elect, and that they have been elected before the foundation of the world; not because they were foreknown as men who would believe and would be holy, but in order that by means of that very election of gracethey might be such, etc.