Once Saved, Always Saved?

[VanillaSunflowers]

You are not a Jew, therefore speak not for the Jew.

The same would be said to you.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Not quite so ugly when each group espouses that the other is hell bound for their particular belief of salvation

The issue is starkly clear when it is realized one group are misled to follow men who have interjected themselves into a deific station, office, capable of forgiving sins, decreeing by their claim of vested authority to determine who retains their salvation and who can lose it.
And counter to that is the truth of God in Christ and the scriptures.
Jesus said call no man father but your Father in Heaven. Jesus died on the cross to guarantee eternal salvation because the father sent him to deliver that very gospel of the good news that we can live eternally beyond the corrupt flesh.
The argument that keeps pages accruing here is between the faction dedicated to the man made deific tradition and those aligned with the spirit of Christ. And of course the compounded multiple accounts one or many assume in order to reiterate their position. But Gods word stands eternal so argue as we choose in the end the truth is never overcome.

A Christian cannot become unsaved. They cannot undo the sacrifice on the cross. They cannot become un-reborn, they cannot become un=redeemed. When God calls those whom He will to salvation being He is eternal and unable to be comprehended but can only be apprehended by the human intellect, He does not then as that all powerful source allow humans to overcome his will for them by their changing their mind and undoing all that Jesus died to accomplish.

It's folly to argue eternal salvation isn't true because it is a fools errand that calls Jesus a liar. Being he is the one that died to make that an immutable fact of human life. John 3:16 reiterates the truth. Those opposed who believe they can become unsaved are arguing that the nominal christian was never saved in the first place. And in that regard they are right. Otherwise, if anything knows the full import of "eternal" it is the God that made the covenant possible.

Only fools argue God got it wrong.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

“He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” Mark 7:6-9

 

[pescador]

Yes, well, you don't know a thing about the Hebrews or you'd never make such an opening remark. Therefore all of your observation really says nothing that pertains to this thread topic.

You're wrong, he's right.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

You're wrong, he's right.

Dear Lord.

 

[Alithis]

Not entirely correct. Jesus is God's righteousness NOT us. We are made righteous by faith in Christ who exhibited perfect righteousness.[/Q'UOTE]
"................so that in him we might become the righteousness of God..." its correct i was only repeating what is written

 

[Wordkeeper]

I agree. Thank you for your kind reply.

Yesterday we had a very lively discussion here. The question was are we, as believers, saved sinners or righteous, by grace? Of course, we are both, I said, but some said if we see ourselves as sinners then our growth as believers is stunted. Others said that if we see ourselves as righteous, then we will become proud and self-confident. What do you think?

2 Corinthians 12:8I asked the Lord three times about this, that it would depart from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So then, I will boast most gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may reside in me.

Paul asked God to take away his sin. In other words, he recognised he was a sinner. It seems it was a good thing , because according to God, His power became stronger in Paul’s life, the finger of God, the proof that Paul was in union with God, that confirmed Paul’s message was true, resided in him.

So it seems that it is a good thing not only to see ourselves as sinners, but also to boast about our weaknesses.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread has had a clean up - a rather big one. Folks, the flaming needs to stop. The
General Theology Statement of Purpose includes:
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• It is permissible to discuss biblical/historical topics that may include inflammatory words or phrases as long as the usage of these words does not specifically flame any CF recognized Nicene group or denomination or insinuate that they are not Christians. Please use these words and phrases with caution.
  
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Continuing to flame will result in thread bans.

Also, please stay on topic.​

​

 

[bbbbbbb]

2 Corinthians 12:8I asked the Lord three times about this, that it would depart from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So then, I will boast most gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may reside in me.

Paul asked God to take away his sin. In other words, he recognised he was a sinner. It seems it was a good thing , because according to God, His power became stronger in Paul’s life, the finger of God, the proof that Paul was in union with God, that confirmed Paul’s message was true, resided in him.

So it seems that it is a good thing not only to see ourselves as sinners, but also to boast about our weaknesses.

Thanks. I had not considered the question in light of that scripture. In all things Christ should receive all the glory.

 

[CodyFaith]

1. Yes
   48 vote(s)
   47.1%
2. No
   54 vote(s)
   52.9%
   
   
   To the 54 who don't believe. Jesus said in John 3:14-15 that Jesus's being lifted up was related to Moses lifting the serpent in the wilderness. For those who don't know what that means, the Israelites were rebelling against God in the desert. God sent snakes to bite them and poison them. God instructed Moses to make a serpent on a pole, and that whoever would look on the serpent would live. Moses made a serpent of brass, and those who looked on it lived.
   
   We are poisoned. We are all sentenced to death. The Father made Jesus high and lifted up, and whoever looks upon the Son of Man (believes in him and believes in his payment for our sins with his blood), is healed. They're saved. They're safe.
   
   It really is that simple. Read the verses for yourself.

 

[Geralt]

Imputation is being true to scriptures. Paul's comparison of Adam's disobedience+sin consequences imputed to all his seed, whilst the Christ's obedience+righteousness to his own, Romans 5:18-19. You cannot deny this and is the very heart of the gospel.

Now if you suggest below that righteous living does not come in play and only a matter of judicial argument you are totally wrong. The reformers believe that if GOD SAVES PEOPLE HE ALSO "CHANGES" THEM. There is probably no better exposition and study of the work of the holy spirit in the life of the believer than those made by the reformers. Unfortunately all arguments made by anti-osas factions assumes a conclusive antinomianism to all those who believe it and this blinds them like a fog of war and guides all there arguments and denial of all other scripture reference that supports it.

The problem with saying it is "imputed" is the idea that only the REPUTATION of righteousness is given to a person, and not any REAL RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is what it means to impute something. Instead of changing the person to be really righteous, in the Baptist and other Protestant world, God only gives the reputation of righteousness. That's also a problem because the word "impute" doesn't even have a corrolary with any of the Greek words used in Romans, much less the portions you cited. So yes, all salvation is, functionally speaking, is forgiveness. It ends at forgiveness.

In Orthodox soteriology, salvation is being transformed into righteousness. As I said earlier, "becoming by grace what Christ is by nature" (quoting Athanasius). In Romans 3-8, a Christian isn't simply given the reputation of righteousness, but is given the ability to be REALLY RIGHTEOUS. This transformation takes time. It cannot happen in one day, but over a lifetime of obedience. Those people who make dying confessions are the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[Standing Up]

Christ had to come because his people, my people, the Hebrews, ALSO believed in "Eternal Security". It was for this belief, that many of them became the kind of people they were: Self righteous, judgmental, unloving, unforgiving, merciless, gossiping, self interested... SO argue all you want over what you think scripture is saying, but know that those of us that have been given to see your fruits, know your arguments are in vein.

Where does scripture say the Hebrews believed in "Eternal Security"?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Where does scripture say the Hebrews believed in "Eternal Security"?

The doctrine is not in SCRIPTURE.
Some of what is often carried along with the doctrine
may be wrong. TEST EVERYTHING.

Read how many multitudes in SCRIPTURE think they are saved while on earth,
and find out different on JUDGMENT DAY when it is final; too late.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

i agree-- once saved~ always saved~
our Father doesn't disown/unadopt His kids!

 

[trinichristiannudist]

No one may agree with me here, but let's start at John 10:27," my sheep hear my voice, and I KNOW them, and they FOLLOW ME. And I shall give them ETERNAL life and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any "man PLUCK them out of my ""hand". Obviously, Jesus was ""showing that all who REMAINS "within the plan of SALVATION "are the ones who are SAVED "forever. Remember, Jesus also "said in MATTHEW 24:13," He that endures to the end, the same shall beSAVED". Thus showing that eternal life is the PRESENT POSITION of all who remains in his will and the FUTURE reward of his glorious return. He also said in MARK 10:29 & 30 that we shall receive an HUNDRED FOLD in this life & in the LIFE To COME ETERNAL LIFE. Thus confirming once again it is the present position of all who remain in his will. And you remain in his will by ascribing to what PAUL the APOSTLE said in ROMANS 12: 1&2. As if anyone can lose their salvation, I agree with what Jesus said in John 10 about the vine and branches. But when Judas Iscariot did what he did, did he immediately lose his salvation? I wouldn't say so based on the amount of time he spent with the savior. But I would say, he lost his SECURITY by the choice he made. Hebrews6:4-8 confirms this. It is not a matter of losing our salvation, but losing our security & protection that helps keep us in God's plan of salvation. That is why we have Holy spirit to guide and uplift us so we do not lose our salvation and our security as revealed in Romans 8 thru 10.

 

[trinichristiannudist]

Holy Spirit's job is to uphold, preserve, and empower us as Jesus taught & revealed in John 14. Only when we surrender daily to God and his will by the leading of Holy Spirit, can we hold on to our salvation & everything promised to us in the scriptures.

 

[trinichristiannudist]

The doctrine is not in SCRIPTURE.
hear Some of what is often carried along with the doctrine
may be wrong. TEST EVERYTHING.

Read how many multitudes in SCRIPTURE think they are saved while on earth,
and find out different on JUDGMENT DAY when it is final; too late.

Yes, but how do YOU know how many people think they are saved?? Did not Jesus say my sheep hear my voice & I KNOW them? And that " ye shall know them by their fruits"? How are any of us to know??

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

Holy Spirit's job is to uphold, preserve, and empower us as Jesus taught & revealed in John 14. Only when we surrender daily to God and his will by the leading of Holy Spirit, can we hold on to our salvation & everything promised to us in the scriptures.

agree to everything but the "holding on" part...
it's called GRACE

 

[Alithis]

2 Corinthians 12:8I asked the Lord three times about this, that it would depart from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So then, I will boast most gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may reside in me.

Paul asked God to take away his sin. In other words, he recognised he was a sinner. It seems it was a good thing , because according to God, His power became stronger in Paul’s life, the finger of God, the proof that Paul was in union with God, that confirmed Paul’s message was true, resided in him.

So it seems that it is a good thing not only to see ourselves as sinners, but also to boast about our weaknesses.

The thorn in the flesh was an evil spirit sent to buffit him ..not a sin. Which makes your entire premise wrong.

 

[sculleywr]

Imputation is being true to scriptures. Paul's comparison of Adam's disobedience+sin consequences imputed to all his seed, whilst the Christ's obedience+righteousness to his own, Romans 5:18-19. You cannot deny this and is the very heart of the gospel.

Now if you suggest below that righteous living does not come in play and only a matter of judicial argument you are totally wrong. The reformers believe that if GOD SAVES PEOPLE HE ALSO "CHANGES" THEM. There is probably no better exposition and study of the work of the holy spirit in the life of the believer than those made by the reformers. Unfortunately all arguments made by anti-osas factions assumes a conclusive antinomianism to all those who believe it and this blinds them like a fog of war and guides all there arguments and denial of all other scripture reference that supports it.

If imputation is true to the Scriptures, then God judges you for stuff you can't actually be responsible for and is unjust ACCORDING TO HIS OWN STATED MEASURES FROM SCRIPTURE.

And if a person is transformed at the point of salvation, and it is completely finished, then he will be perfect from the point of salvation onward. Antinomianism, therefore, is literally the ONLY logical belief to be assumed if one believes salvation is completed at conversion. If you cannot give up your salvation by free will, then the moral law has absolutely no hold on you. If Hitler really was a believer when he was a child, it doesn't matter what you think of him, he will be one of your neighbors in heaven.

And no, the "Hitler didn't really believe when he was a child" argument doesn't fly because that's assuming you know exactly what was going through kid Hitler's mind. Or it's assuming that a person doesn't have free will after conversion, in which case, we're left with the "God as monster" paradox because HE forces people to live with Him against their will.