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Once Saved, Always Saved?

Do you agree with OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved)?

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Geralt

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no contradiction, only part of your misled argument.

the reformed faith totally agrees man is judged by his own deeds. romans 2 is part of Paul's systematic presentation that all is guilty, for no one is righteous.

unfortunately it seems you got stuck there and did not proceed with the rest of the his whole systematic presentation. romans 2 is not romans.

Led to does not mean made them guilty. Because we receive the knowledge of good and evil before we are ready for it and mature enough to use it, we sin. Your interpretation of the Scripture contradicts Romans 2 and Matthew 25. Sorry. Man is judged by his own deeds. The whole concept of original guilt is something created by the Roman Catholics in their slavish devotion to Augustine's most glaring mistake. But Romans cannot contradict itself. Either a man is judged by his own deeds as Paul writes in Romans 2 and Christ depicts in the Sheep and the Goats, or Scripture is lying in one of the two instances, or Scripture is just plainly not the guide we need to use because Christianity is fundamentally false. Show me one depiction of the JUDGMENT where man is judged by any deeds not his own. Can't? Well, no you can't. Because there aren't any.
 
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sculleywr

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no contradiction, only part of your misled argument.

the reformed faith totally agrees man is judged by his own deeds. romans 2 is part of Paul's systematic presentation that all is guilty, for no one is righteous.

unfortunately it seems you got stuck there and did not proceed with the rest of the his whole systematic presentation. romans 2 is not romans.
It wasn't changed. Either he was right in saying all men are judged by their OWN deeds, or he is wrong. You can't rationalize this away. My interpretation lines up with the description of the Judgment by Christ.
 
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Wordkeeper

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you keep adding ion things simply not written . you slip in the words "a possession by evil spirits" when the text says no such thing . and it wasn't sin elsewhere Paul calls on the witness of timothy to verify the manner of life which he lives as being consistent with all he preaches .. people like to attribute some kind of unrepentant sin in pauls life ..but they do so to appease their own conscience methinks . it is not so, it is not written to be so .. dont add in words that are simply not there and then build doctrines on them .

Do you agree that Jesus boasted of his weakness here and God's power was manifested in His ministry:

John 5:19
So Jesus answered them, "I tell you the solemn truth, the Son can do nothing on his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise.


John 12:49
I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

John 12:50
And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say."

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, carrying out His work.

Do you also agree that Moses did not boast of his weakness, dependency on God, as recorded here:

Numbers 20
9So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him;10and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?”11Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank. 12But the LORDsaid to Moses and Aaron, “Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

Numbers 27:14
for in the wilderness of Zin, during the strife of the congregation, you rebelled against My command to treat Me as holy before their eyes at the water." (These are the waters of Meribah of Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.)

Deuteronomy 32:51
because you broke faith with Me in the midst of the sons of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel.

And if Paul boasted of a "messenger from Satan", how did he boast, what words would he have used?
 
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Alithis

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Do you agree that Jesus boasted of his weakness here and God's power was manifested in His ministry:

John 5:19
So Jesus answered them, "I tell you the solemn truth, the Son can do nothing on his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise.


John 12:49
I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

John 12:50
And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say."

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, carrying out His work.

Do you also agree that Moses did not boast of his weakness, dependency on God, as recorded here:

Numbers 20
9So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him;10and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?”11Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank. 12But the LORDsaid to Moses and Aaron, “Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

Numbers 27:14
for in the wilderness of Zin, during the strife of the congregation, you rebelled against My command to treat Me as holy before their eyes at the water." (These are the waters of Meribah of Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.)

Deuteronomy 32:51
because you broke faith with Me in the midst of the sons of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel.

And if Paul boasted of a "messenger from Satan", how did he boast, what words would he have used?
I say its completly nothing to do with. Jesus boasting in weakness ..
Your picking out scriptures and making stuff up about it is all it seems like. Try reading what it simply says.
 
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Wordkeeper

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I say its completly nothing to do with. Jesus boasting in weakness ..
Your picking out scriptures and making stuff up about it is all it seems like. Try reading what it simply says.

You mean you can't put in words how Paul boasted about being sent a messenger from Satan. Hee hee.! Thought so.
 
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Geralt

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no disagreement.
all the more it lines up with Christ's righteousness imputed to the believer.

It wasn't changed. Either he was right in saying all men are judged by their OWN deeds, or he is wrong. You can't rationalize this away. My interpretation lines up with the description of the Judgment by Christ.
 
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sculleywr

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no disagreement.
all the more it lines up with Christ's righteousness imputed to the believer.
No it doesn't. It doesn't even have anything to do with that. And even then, having the reputation of righteousness is not the same as being transformed through the renewing of your mind in Christ Jesus. That's the promise of Scripture. A reputation is just putting a pretty cloth on a filthy slime. That is what imputation is. Except that same goes for imputation of a bad reputation. It is putting a bad filter on something that might or might not be bad. It isn't anything different about the thing itself. It's just God's choice of how HE sees things, and that is His choice. It isn't our responsibility. It is His responsibility.

Orthodoxy sees things in terms of whether they are righteous or not in reality. A person begins his relationship with Christ as not being fully righteous, and through the relationship he becomes really fully righteous. It isn't a new set of clothes. It is a complete transformation.
 
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Wordkeeper

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well i don't have to..he told us that was the case .

He was using a metaphor. It's like asking a person how he felt after drinking coffee when he felt sleepy at work and he says it was like he got a ride on a rocket.

It's insane to think that Paul went around boasting he was a victim of satanic attacks. The Messenger from Satan was his DISQUALIFICATION to be an Apostle. He was constantly being questioned about his suitability.
 
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Alithis

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He was using a metaphor. It's like asking a person how he felt after drinking coffee when he felt sleepy at work and he says it was like he got a ride on a rocket.

It's insane to think that Paul went around boasting he was a victim of satanic attacks. The Messenger from Satan was his DISQUALIFICATION to be an Apostle. He was constantly being questioned about his suitability.
lol that is possibly the most ridiculous doctrine i have yet heard and completely detached from the plain written text
 
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Geralt

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i do not know where you are getting your word meanings. if you do not understand then just ask first. not use eyeglasses of orthodoxy and try to make conclusions as if you are correct.

imputed righteousness is not a reputation.

Pauls thesis is that everyone is accountable for their acts -> and that everyone is judged guilty before the creator is to conclude -> no one is deemed righteous before God simply by obeying. and therefore Paul proceeds with his thesis that a person can become righteous by another approach or method. this therefore is a (another kind of) righteousness "apart from the law" - something a person can achieve but not by his effort or obedience. And this is through faith alone- the other method, approach or solution.

Rom 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
sanctification and righteous living is another thing, but justification is totally by faith alone. don't try to confuse both trying to promote your orthodox beliefs when Paul is quite clear on that.

see if you dont get stuck with Romans 2 and proceed with the rest of Pauls thesis, the message is undeniable. but unfortunately what you do is start with orthodox beliefs and try to fit in verses from scripture for its vindication.

No it doesn't. It doesn't even have anything to do with that. And even then, having the reputation of righteousness is not the same as being transformed through the renewing of your mind in Christ Jesus. That's the promise of Scripture. A reputation is just putting a pretty cloth on a filthy slime. That is what imputation is. Except that same goes for imputation of a bad reputation. It is putting a bad filter on something that might or might not be bad. It isn't anything different about the thing itself. It's just God's choice of how HE sees things, and that is His choice. It isn't our responsibility. It is His responsibility.
Orthodoxy sees things in terms of whether they are righteous or not in reality. A person begins his relationship with Christ as not being fully righteous, and through the relationship he becomes really fully righteous. It isn't a new set of clothes. It is a complete transformation.
 
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Wordkeeper

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i do not know where you are getting your word meanings. if you do not understand then just ask first. not use eyeglasses of orthodoxy and try to make conclusions as if you are correct.

imputed righteousness is not a reputation.

Pauls thesis is that everyone is accountable for their acts -> and that everyone is judged guilty before the creator is to conclude -> no one is deemed righteous before God simply by obeying. and therefore Paul proceeds with his thesis that a person can become righteous by another approach or method. this therefore is a (another kind of) righteousness "apart from the law" - something a person can achieve but not by his effort or obedience. And this is through faith alone- the other method, approach or solution.

Rom 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
sanctification and righteous living is another thing, but justification is totally by faith alone. don't try to confuse both trying to promote your orthodox beliefs when Paul is quite clear on that.

see if you dont get stuck with Romans 2 and proceed with the rest of Pauls thesis, the message is undeniable. but unfortunately what you do is start with orthodox beliefs and try to fit in verses from scripture for its vindication.​


Erasmus made a mistake. In the Vulgate the word was reputatum, "given". He used imputatum, "borrowed". Philip Melanchthon, a Reformed scholar, used Erasmus' 1516 New Testament.

Imputed means borrowing.

Reputed means having.

Abraham demonstrated loyalty and he had righteousness credited to him. It was his own righteousness, not a future righteousness borrowed from Christ.

If Christ had a bank account in the same bank of righteousness as you had, then his righteousness can't be imputed, lent to you. The only way you could have ownership of that righteousness would be if he allowed you joint holding of his account, be in Him:

Quote
But I was not satisfied with this interpretation because it seemed to limit the scope of the biblical text. I tried to dance – ever so delicately – the line between the “old” view and the “new” (i.e. Wright’s) view believing that this passage does teach that believers “take on” God’s righteousness as it were, but through the Union With Christ (“In Him” it says) rather than “imputation”. In short, I leaned toward Edith’s understanding of this passage.

In Wright’s response to Edith Humphrey my anxieties were relieved. Wright, in explaining this text at the conference, seemed to go further with it then I think he does in his books. Keeping all of his premises in tact he expanded his interpretation of this passage to include all believers and their mission.


http://www.covenantoflove.net/theology/wrights-explanation-of-2-corinthians-521/


Do you want to continue, perpetuate, reinforce the Catholic scholar, Erasmus' mistake?
 
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sculleywr

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i do not know where you are getting your word meanings. if you do not understand then just ask first. not use eyeglasses of orthodoxy and try to make conclusions as if you are correct.

imputed righteousness is not a reputation.

Pauls thesis is that everyone is accountable for their acts -> and that everyone is judged guilty before the creator is to conclude -> no one is deemed righteous before God simply by obeying. and therefore Paul proceeds with his thesis that a person can become righteous by another approach or method. this therefore is a (another kind of) righteousness "apart from the law" - something a person can achieve but not by his effort or obedience. And this is through faith alone- the other method, approach or solution.

Rom 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
sanctification and righteous living is another thing, but justification is totally by faith alone. don't try to confuse both trying to promote your orthodox beliefs when Paul is quite clear on that.

see if you dont get stuck with Romans 2 and proceed with the rest of Pauls thesis, the message is undeniable. but unfortunately what you do is start with orthodox beliefs and try to fit in verses from scripture for its vindication.
It comes from the meaning of the words and etymology of what they meant when they were first used, not their modern usage. Imputation means that one is only ASCRIBED the righteousness. They aren't transformed:

1540s, noun of action from impute (v.) on model of Middle French imputation, or else from Late Latin imputationem (nominative imputatio) "a charge, an account," noun of action from Latin imputare "to charge, ascribe."

If I imputed my debts to you, would that mean that you did anything to earn them or that they were really yours? No. It means that the reputation of those debts are ascribed to you. This happens a lot in modern Credit Bureaus, where people get bad credit scores because someone who has the same name as them has a lot of debt. In one case, a person was denied an apartment because a miscommunication in one of the credit bureaus labeled, or imputed, the title of terrorist to him, and the actual terrorist in question was both dead and didn't even have the same name as he did.

That is what imputation is. That is what it meant when it was first being used. Sure, you've modernized it, but that doesn't change its etymology. This is what it meant when it was first being used in the Reformation. You can't escape the meaning of a word simply because you use it differently. The people who first coined the term used it this way. This is why Orthodox reject the term altogether. The meaning of words is very important, especially for a person like me, an interpreter between languages. It has been my job to understand words and their meanings. So when you come at me with a word like Imputation and get surprised when I realize that it shares the same etymology as reputation, being from the same language with the same root word "Putare", then you're looking for a ballgame that's not in your league.

Moving on...

Since Romans says we are not justified by works OF THE LAW, and James says we are justified by works, and not by faith alone, then either James is speaking of some other kind of works, or either James or Paul are talking of the same thing and one is wrong. See, your Romans Switchback doesn't really help you here because it ignores the whole of Romans for a simpler, easier salvation that is really just spiritual fire insurance. That's all OSAS is in the end. Fire insurance. If there is literally nothing you can do, even of your own free will, to give up salvation, then you:

1. Do not really have free will, but are forced to do things against your will.
2. Do not need to worry about a thing. Eat, drink, and be merry, for even if tomorrow you die, you still get eternity in heaven, because that's all that really matters.

That last one is pretty much perfectly summed up in the most common question I hear at invitations in Protestant services. I heard this phrase so many times at Tennessee Temple University, West Jacksonville Baptist Church, Highland Park Baptist Church, and every other Baptist church I have been in, from so many different pastors, I wondered if someone had printed the question into their Bibles somewhere:

"If you died today, do you know if you would be in heaven?"

or

"If you died today and God asked you 'why should I let you into My heaven?' what would you say?"

The questions center upon the final destination, and not the final relationship.

To be quite frank, if I had to go to hell itself in order to spend eternity with Christ, the price of hell would be cheap compared to the benefits of the relationship with Christ. I really don't like the idea of hell, but if that is where I would be if I had a relationship with Christ, then sobeit. I'll take hell with Christ over heaven without.

Salvation, for the Orthodox, has nothing to do with the where. God is everywhere present and filling all things. Saying there is a place God is not is like saying that there's a place where nothing exists at all. Even total vacuum is filled with virtual particles popping in and out of existence at all times. That's just how God created the universe. For me, being saved is knowing everything there is to know about Christ, in the same way that a husband knows his wife, not as a list of facts about her, but as a lifetime of experiences, an eternity of experiences with Him.

This is the reason that salvation is never OSAS for the Orthodox, because the very meaning of salvation is fundamentally different. For the Orthodox, whether we go to heaven is immaterial. It's a consequence of the relationship, not the goal of the relationship.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Where does verses like John 3:16 and 17 fit in if you can loose your salvation ? curious


Quote
The righteousness of God does in fact refer to God’s faithfulness to his covenant expressed fully in the life, death and resurrection of Christ (i.e. the Gospel). Furthermore, Paul in 2 Corinthians is talking – in context – specifically about his own ministry and that of the other Apostles. But – and this I think is the touch Wright adds which he does not make clear in his previous writings – we believers have a job to do in proclaiming the Kingdom Message of the Gospel to the world and when we do that then we too become, i.e. embody, the Righteousness of God.


http://www.covenantoflove.net/theology/wrights-explanation-of-2-corinthians-521/

In the time period that the word was used, pistis, believe, it was in most instances used to mean to be loyal.

The phrase "in Christ " is metonymy, synechdochal. If someone did a 9/11 on you, you would understand that a terrorist attack had occurred. In the teaching that the elect in Christ are safe, remember there is a qualifier, a condition. It's not the elect are safe. The condition is to be " in Christ ". And that means the bolded text above.
 
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sculleywr

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Where does verses like John 3:16 and 17 fit in if you can loose your salvation ? curious
Believe isn't a present tense verb. It's a perfect tense in the Greek: Pisteuo. It means you believe, and you keep on believing, and when you're done believing, you believe some more, and then some more after that. And you keep on believing until you die. It's a perfect Continuous Tense.
 
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CodyFaith

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  1. Yes
    48 vote(s)
    47.1%
  2. No
    54 vote(s)
    52.9%


    To the 54 who don't believe. Jesus said in John 3:14-15 that Jesus's being lifted up was related to Moses lifting the serpent in the wilderness. For those who don't know what that means, the Israelites were rebelling against God in the desert. God sent snakes to bite them and poison them. God instructed Moses to make a serpent on a pole, and that whoever would look on the serpent would live. Moses made a serpent of brass, and those who looked on it lived.

    We are poisoned. We are all sentenced to death. The Father made Jesus high and lifted up, and whoever looks upon the Son of Man (believes in him and believes in his payment for our sins with his blood), is healed. They're saved. They're safe.

    It really is that simple. Read the verses for yourself.
bumping my post.
 
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