Once Saved, Always Saved?

[VanillaSunflowers]

You're welcome, but I'll still be around.

Then the Christians here will rebuke your attempt to call Jesus words false for as long as you are allowed to endure.

 

[marineimaging]

For God so love the world... that whosoever believes on his Son shall have everlasting life. Either God is God, or a liar. If you have a "list" of things we must measure up to, please reveal it. Adam and Eve only had one rule..., and they couldn't handle it.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Thank you for correcting my post, I helped you correct yours as well- "So, make sure to write your name in hebrew ,(Hebrew) celebrate the jewish (Jewish) holidays and be sure to open and close your post with some sort of hebrew (Hebrew) greeting." These are your words clipped and pasted from you, right? and this "תודה רבה לך על הפוסט הנפלא הזה עם זאת אתה טועה וכולנו נלך לעזאזל לנצח. אני רגיל ללכת לעזאזל בגלל שאני כותב עברי. I can go to heaven now?"

Did you seek out what those words they wrote in Hebrew actually say?
תודה רבה לך על הפוסט הנפלא הזה עם זאת אתה טועה וכולנו נלך לעזאזל לנצח. אני רגיל ללכת לעזאזל בגלל שאני כותב עבר = "You are wrong, and we all go to hell forever. I wont go to hell because I write Hebrew"

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Then the Christians here will rebuke your attempt to call Jesus words false for as long as you are allowed to endure.

Oh, that sounds very christian of them. Your post was the same as mine. Mine was shorter, more blunt and to the point. Your was drawn out and more articulated than mine. However, your post did the same thing that you are accusing me of. I wasn't trying to start anything, merely saying I totally agree with the point that you brought up. Did you not say that Jesus words and other parts of the Bible contradict themselves? If your answer is no, than you should re-read your post and correct it, because that's the exact thing you said. Can I rebuke you now, or maybe we can get rebuked together? We could start a club! I LIKE clubs! Thanks for the ideas!

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Did you seek out what those words they wrote in Hebrew actually say?
תודה רבה לך על הפוסט הנפלא הזה עם זאת אתה טועה וכולנו נלך לעזאזל לנצח. אני רגיל ללכת לעזאזל בגלל שאני כותב עבר = "You are wrong, and we all go to hell forever. I wont go to hell because I write Hebrew"

While it would be nice to say that I'm fluent in Hebrew, it's not one of my known languages. I will admit, it was google translate! Oh, the gasps of horror. I was making a point for the OP.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

"He who endures till the end SHALL BE saved."

Adam was born without a death sentence... he sinned and the clock began to tick. We are born with the clock ticking... the wages of sin is death. Since we still die, then we have not been perfected, we do not have the law (fully) on our hearts, and thus we are still paying the price. We WILL BE changed, WE have rest, WILL be made incorruptible. Until then, we still are exposed to sin, still are tempted, and still decay and die. If the wages of sin is death and we still die... then we are not saved yet. We might belong to God and can call ourselves sons and daughters, but there is clearly still work on the table that is still to be fulfilled!

Then you should work, work, work, for the approval of the god you worship and hope you meet his approval.

Christians here read and believe the teachings of Jesus Christ. Because God sent his only begotten son to deliver the message of his grace, through faith, that saves eternally. So much so was that message intended to impact the world and those who were called to believe, that Jesus died to seal the truth of it with his blood. Blood that would cover every sin of every sinner who accepted on faith the grace of God and grace given gift of eternal salvation, and eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:12-13
Works salvation? OK, sure, in a sense. But it was Gods work. Not ours that saves. John 6:28-29.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Oh, that sounds very christian of them.

It is indeed. Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Titus 1:9 He must be devoted to the trustworthy message we teach. Then he can use these accurate teachings to encourage people and correct those who oppose the word.

 

[ldibart]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

The Foundation you need first before looking at the scriptures is that we are all sinners and our works are as dirty rags. SOLO DEO GLORIA we can do absolutely nothing to get us saved and absolutely nothing to make us un saved ..NOTHING can pluck us from our fathers hands and and we are something right?

the scripture did not feel the need to have to specify it includes us since it says NOTHING CAN ..and keeping with this line of thought ,all things are in his hands for us to do right or wrong will do nothing to save or un save us only GOD can be that judge NOT man ..

WHO IS MAN? do you actually think MAN can walk around and Judge others because they think someone is unsaved even though this unsaved person believes and states belief in Christ this you can lose your salvation is seeded with a poison pill that one would naturally take and be that much more judgmental while with a always saved it cuts into the control part of the heart that man needs to have it cuts into the what we need to judge a person and tell them they are going to go to hell if they do not stop this or that ..it is a control issue

people grow at their own rate and pace ..yes we are to judge those members in our churches for things like fornication ..and even though we cannot guess or not are they saved as even excommunication from a church does not mean hell bound ..it means we cannot have that in our church.

..we have no idea how deep some peoples wounds go do we? but by how you or I feel that they are behaving does not mean God in not pleased with this person and their progress? their growth may be different than ours?

what is fruit? what is enough fruits we may have a much different idea of what that is. ..do you know how many talents God has given us from the start ? what you think is not good enough, GOD may think is and it would be you who is judged by your judgement.

See the line of thought like people that are saved are not or may not be, leads to the person judging another in his heart as saved or not or possibly ..WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.

Again what is fruit ? you may not see the fruit ..what if the fruit is to make people laugh? yet you are not humored by this fruit? this to you is not fruit but to GOD would be

Another fruit may be to sympathize with people that are needing that ..you may not see the effects of this and if this same person does not fit what you feel is a christian you can now think he is not one ..and yet you would be wrong and still in a spot to be judged by GOD because you heart is not right! in thinking a person is going to hell that is trying even if you cannot see it ...because we are all fallen .

to get us unsaved what works or sins do we need to do daily? ten 20 more ?...but that is not the right way to look at it .looking at it as we all sin and even do willful sins at some point as well but what this means to us as humans and what it means to God may also be a bit different and should be as no one has the mind of God we strive to let this mind be in us.. SO At what point are we deemed worthless?


let me ask this question ..if you are doing things right and you are trying and do not mess up do you feel a person is saved on that day ..but when they mess up the next do they now become unsaved? How does 7 times 70 fit in there then?

If our salvation becomes dependent on our works and we have part in the salvation process then we thereby negate SOLO DEO GLORIA . This is incorrect . our faith and even our very will to do what is required by God is given By God as a gift to us through the mercy of God ..who PROMISES to finish the works HE started in us not WE but HE.

The language and symbolism used in the bible is also a bit daunting at times ..the vine represents christ ..is it the physical christ meaning church body and to be tossed out in this life OR does it mean the after life ..what does it mean in revelations that is very symbolic? yet read so literally by some, you would think it was one of the ten commandments ..

does that blotting out mean you would be put to death here as is shown in the final stage of excommunication if they still will not repent or just not part of Gods plan and you do not know it or do you know it?.. Again the seriousness of hell i would think God would look at it a whole lot different than judgmental mankind would ..

I bring up now mental illness, if a person cannot fight there way out of depression ..one believing that they should be happy and show fruit in the lord may think that unless this person is healed they are not saved but what if the fight the do against it IS the fruit for that person?..what if they cannot work ..now should they not eat? that is in the bible as well. correct ..

Mans hardened hearts reading scripture will lead to judgmental-ism and we are suppose to try to avoid this type of heart in us. How many times do I need to forgive my brother ..7 ..no 70 times 7 ...so if someone sins against you over and over and over ..our call is to forgive them period NOT declare in our hearts they are not saved ..is this not said about if your BROTHER?..do you feel that Jesus put this on a human being and is not even more merciful than we are?

MY belief is the ones that are endangered of hells fire are those that believe in works to earn and miss the whole point they are legalistic people ..they think they do works for the lord and they fool themselves and are perishing they have judgmental hearts and eyes and the scripture is stated about those lord have not we done this and done that? and He replies depart from me you evil doers I knew you not! These people never found the saving Grace in Christ because of a heart issue even though they worked.

 

[Ken Rank]

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly; and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith--not by faith and our works, hence, faith alone.

Only if you ignore a lot of scripture. James writes that faith without works is DEAD if alone. Paul writes about how it is the law that defines what sin even is (Romans 7:7) as does John in 1 John 3:4.

The Law is the yardstick by which we are measured. It is that which declares we have fallen short and NEED grace. If you pit grace against the law, or remove the law entirely.. you remove the need for grace because the thing that says you need it, no longer states that.

Here is the problem... I say works and you HEAR "unto salvation." That is NOT even remotely a thought in my mind, nor was it a thought in the mind of the Spirit inspired author (James) who again said, "faith without works is dead being alone." Works and faith do not contrast, they are not at odds... heck, Yeshua himself said, "If you love me keep my commandments." John wrote, "this is the love of God that we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." Unto salvation? It doesn't say that... we come in faith and THEN we learn to work and live as God expects. That is what makes HIM Lord. We play by His rules, His understanding of righteousness, not ours. Blessings.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

It is true that work does not save. We know this because Jesus taught it to be so.
When we are saved, we do the work of the Father. His truth and grace appears in everything we are about. We further the kingdom by bringing the truth of Gods presence to life in a world of the walking dead.

Those who think salvation can be lost were never saved in the first place. Jesus taught us that. Because people left Jesus during his ministry as well.
1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

Matthew 24:13 is said to reiterate those who believe they have to work to earn their salvation. But that isn't what the verse is talking about. It is talking about the tribulation period to come. Those who are in the faith even through the trials shall be saved to the end. No trial can come against the Christian that will strip them of the grace of God and eternal salvation.
If we could lose what Jesus died to deliver by Gods grace, would Jesus be false then when he taught this:John 10:28

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Only if you ignore a lot of scripture. James writes that faith without works is DEAD if alone. Paul writes about how it is the law that defines what sin even is (Romans 7:7) as does John in 1 John 3:4.

The Law is the yardstick by which we are measured. It is that which declares we have fallen short and NEED grace. If you pit grace against the law, or remove the law entirely.. you remove the need for grace because the thing that says you need it, no longer states that.

Here is the problem... I say works and you HEAR "unto salvation." That is NOT even remotely a thought in my mind, nor was it a thought in the mind of the Spirit inspired author (James) who again said, "faith without works is dead being alone." Works and faith do not contrast, they are not at odds... heck, Yeshua himself said, "If you love me keep my commandments." John wrote, "this is the love of God that we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." Unto salvation? It doesn't say that... we come in faith and THEN we learn to work and live as God expects. That is what makes HIM Lord. We play by His rules, His understanding of righteousness, not ours. Blessings.

Paul never wrote that we have to work to keep our salvation.

 

[1John2:4]

Did you seek out what those words they wrote in Hebrew actually say?
תודה רבה לך על הפוסט הנפלא הזה עם זאת אתה טועה וכולנו נלך לעזאזל לנצח. אני רגיל ללכת לעזאזל בגלל שאני כותב עבר = "You are wrong, and we all go to hell forever. I wont go to hell because I write Hebrew"

Vanilla- I was quoting a post from Doubtful Salvation - trying to show him that what he wrote was kind of ugly to some of the other folks on this forum. Those are his words not mine - Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Ken Rank]

Paul never wrote that we have to work to keep our salvation.

Nor did I say that Paul said that. You need to read more carefully and stop making assumptions. I said that Paul said the law defined sin and then I provided the verse for you to go look at it. Works do not save, but that fact does not abrogate works. And why is it, that you'll jump over to a comment I made about Paul (totally outside the context I used) and then ignore James who made a statement that stands in direct opposition to what you said?

You >> Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly; and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith--not by faith and our works, hence, faith alone.

James >> Faith without works is dead being alone.

Again, works don't save... if we agree than there is nothing left to say. If you want to go beyond that and take works out of the picture altogether, then you might as well rewrite the bible.

 

[Vicomte13]

It seems the only reason why you want to give John's words more weight than Paul's is that you can more easily twist his words

I twist NOTHING. I QUOTED Jesus, extensively. We have nothing more to say to each other.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Vanilla- I was quoting a post from Doubtful Salvation - trying to show him that what he wrote was kind of ugly to some of the other folks on this forum. Those are his words not mine - Sorry for the confusion.

Not quite so ugly when each group espouses that the other is hell bound for their particular belief of salvation

 

[ldibart]

Only if you ignore a lot of scripture. James writes that faith without works is DEAD if alone. Paul writes about how it is the law that defines what sin even is (Romans 7:7) as does John in 1 John 3:4.

The Law is the yardstick by which we are measured. It is that which declares we have fallen short and NEED grace. If you pit grace against the law, or remove the law entirely.. you remove the need for grace because the thing that says you need it, no longer states that.

Here is the problem... I say works and you HEAR "unto salvation." That is NOT even remotely a thought in my mind, nor was it a thought in the mind of the Spirit inspired author (James) who again said, "faith without works is dead being alone." Works and faith do not contrast, they are not at odds... heck, Yeshua himself said, "If you love me keep my commandments." John wrote, "this is the love of God that we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." Unto salvation? It doesn't say that... we come in faith and THEN we learn to work and live as God expects. That is what makes HIM Lord. We play by His rules, His understanding of righteousness, not ours. Blessings.

In Christ Jesus he has fulfilled all things needed works and of Faith ..without being in christ our works are dead ..being in Christ they are made alive as he has fulfilled this

in HIM all glory to God, this is so no Man can boast ..James is correct Faith without works is dead and Works without faith is just as dead .Works done out of fear is dead as it lacks the faith that is needed as fear comes from the devil ..Works done to keep your salvation are works of fear and this is not an acceptable sacrifice to God

Christ brings this together he gifts us our faith ..now what are works ? what does god feel is the work you need to do we all have different things needed to be worked on ..some things lie deep and is a root of other things that would be removed after the root is taken we cannot know what we need to do first for the glory of God to shine the most in us and help others around us

Fortunately these works are not done by us so..is it not Christ our savior that works in us and through us? so that even our works that we do are done by him and not us! solo deo gloria

 

[Ken Rank]

I want to add something...

I believe that there is a complete lack of understanding when it comes to the word "faith." Ok, bold statement... how about some facts mister?

We have tied the words faith and belief into one word. We think that if we believe strongly enough, that this is faith and it isn't. A good example... did you watch God's Not Dead? Remember the pastors car wouldn't start a number of times and finally with the evangelist the pastor puts down his suitcase and goes to try one more time. The evangelist says, "No man, have faith, put the suitcases in the car and know God will start it." (paraphrased)

OK, that is >>NOT<< faith... that is belief.. and a misguided one that leads to treating the Creator as our personal genie waiting for His bottle to be rubbed.

What is faith?

Faith COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

Faith is the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN

Faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead being alone.

3 verses... let's put them together....

What is faith? We have to HEAR God (hearing is not seen) and then we act on what we hear (that is the evidence of the unseen/ what we heard) and without the action faith is dead. This is why Hebrews 11 shows that Noach HEARD and then ACTED, Abraham HEARD and then ACTED, Moses HEARD and then ACTED... and so forth.

The word "faith" and the Hebrew word shema (translated as "hear" but really meaning "hear and do") virtually have the same meaning. True faith means we have HEARD God and acted on what we heard... so works accompany faith or it isn't faith!

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

It is indeed. Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Titus 1:9 He must be devoted to the trustworthy message we teach. Then he can use these accurate teachings to encourage people and correct those who oppose the word.

Then we shall be rebuked together for having the same beliefs. God help us.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Vanilla- I was quoting a post from Doubtful Salvation - trying to show him that what he wrote was kind of ugly to some of the other folks on this forum. Those are his words not mine - Sorry for the confusion.

I know. That's why I asked in my post if you knew what they had said in the writing.

 

[MayMcFlurry]

I think you'd do well to realize what certain of us are reiterating of Jesus teachings is that no true Christian ever loses their salvation.

That's kinda what I was saying...