once saved always saved

[ZoneChaos]

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She was not seeking wisdom. She was decieved into beleiving that she would be equal with God. It wasnt about wisdom, the first sin was about pride.
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You don’t believe God is wise?

Huh? Yes I beleive God is wise. Never said I didn't. What did I say that made you think other wise?

My statement above was to chow you that Eve was not seeking wisdom.. she was seeking pride. She was seeking the very same sin that Satan Himself commited.. Pride in believing she could be equal with God.

Man’s nature changed when Adam entered into death.
I agree with the remainder.

You can't agree with it. You yourself said mankind doe snot know good from evil until they are saved. You said "being save dis knowing right from wrong". I said above that man inherited the knowledge of right form wrong, through Adam. SO which to you believe? That man does inherit that knowledge, or that man does not?

 

[Marillyn]

Email me and specify whether you want phone number, email address or whatever

 

[ZoneChaos]

e-mail sent

 

[Marillyn]

You said that only those who know right from wrong can be Christiasn. Since there are many people on this earth who are not saved.. there are then, many people who do not know right from wrong. When these people sin.. according tpo your view on what it take to be a Christian, they do not know they are dpoing wrong.. thus have no remorse for thier wrong doing, nor do they have the ability to know what they are dping is wrong.

Jesus prayed for those who killed Him, “Father, forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do.”

The Holy Spirit is the one that convicts us and gives us wisdom. Scripture also says that it is the goodness of God that draws us to repentance.

I agree. Knowing right from wrong, though, doe snot make you a Christian.

You can’t know God and His Word without knowing right from wrong.

Were not tlking about Law, Marillyn.. we are talking about morality. We are talking about knowing right from Wrong. According to you, any one who is not a Christian would see nothing wrong with murder, correct?

You gave a legal example of man’s government…..morality cannot be legislated.
Many who are Christians see nothing wrong with murder in certain cases.
If you are talking about the 10 commandments, Paul said that the law is spiritual….that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be.

Show me the verses that teach the doctrine of righteousness = knowing right from wrong.

What is it that separates us from God? Sin
What is it that brings forth sin? John said that every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lusts, and when lust is conceived it bringeth forth sin.
The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.
So, to have the desires contrary to God and conceive those desires brings forth sin…..unrighteousness.
What man considers righteousness is as filthy rags.
Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
It is knowing the truth that is righteousness….merely believing God is counted as righteousness even though we do not understand. (Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.)

Do you think this verse is saying that those who are not subject to the Law of God, are then not accountable unto it? Isn;lt it you who earlier said that people are accontable to Law, even if they don't know it? That not knowing the law is not an excuse? If that's true, then they are accountable unto the law, though they are not subject to it. They may choose to ignore the Law, but they will still be judge by it.

The carnal mind cannot obey God’s law because it can’t understand it to even know what is required…..the natural man receiveth not the things of God for they are spiritually discerned.
Is he accountable? Yes…..he is damned. The carnal man will be destroyed---every single one. As a man thinketh in his heart so is he……for to be carnally minded is death…..death is the last enemy to be destroyed. When carnal mindedness is destroyed, the carnal man is destroyed……when a poor man wins the $50 milliion lottery, the poor man is destroyed by making him rich.

The carnal man is damned. He is the only one who can partake of spiritual food unworthily…..and communing with God destroys his own carnal mind, thus partaking of communion is eating (bread, word) and drinking (spiritual understanding) damnation to himself.

They will still know roight from wrong, and refuse to live by what is right.. they will not be subject to what is right, but they will be held accountable in the end unto what is right, though they reject it.

I just answered that.

Ask Athiest Archon if he is mistaken about what is right and wrong. Ask Athiest Archon if he thinks murder is right or wrong. Then ask him if he is a Christian.

I am not mistaken in what is right and wrong. There are people, who are not saved, that even reject Christianity, and stil understandthe difference between right and wrong.

The murder God speaks of is the spiritual murder, although according to Paul, there is a certain show of wisdom in will worship.

When Jesus stands at the door of our hearts.. who opens the door?

The spirit stands at the door and knocks, and the will opens it……it is God that works in us to will and to do His good pleasure…..so, it is God that opens the door.

Fine, pick a version.. the verse will read the same.. It will show a destiny of man and not a predestination of man.

God sent His Word to save the world…..it will not return to Him void but will accomplish all that it was sent forth to do. Now, that is predestination.
Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. That is predestination.

Which is hy understanding this verse is so important. Is it Gods will that we are predestined to our salvation? Or is it God's will that we have a destiny of Salvation? There is a big difference there. The first.. man has no choice to acept salvation, the second, he does.

It is God’s will that none should perish……lay down your life and you will gain it……try to save it, and you will lose it anyway…..and losing it, you will gain it…….what you think is your life is death. You gain life by losing that life of death……carnal mindedness.

Sp then, according to you, God didn;lt have a reson for our existance? The Bible teachesthat God's reason for our existance is to choose to Love Him. Yet, you would deny us that choice, thus denying the reason God gave us to eist in the first place.

The Bible teaches that God’s reason for our existence is “for His pleasure all things were created”……can He have pleasure in your not loving Him? No…..so you will love Him.

 

[adam332]

I haven't read all 8 pages here but just thought I'd throw in my scriptures worth.

2Pet. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Also see Pro. 26:11
____________

Heb. 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The reason why I state that these verses indicate the opposite of OSAS, is from the manner in which it clearly starts,...."who were once", showing that they aren't anymore.

This and the rest of the past tense inferences, such as..."have tasted" and "were made partakers", shows that whom they are speaking of, are clearly not tasting or partaking in these things now.

When one comes to Christ and asks for the blood of His crucified body to cleanse them of their sin, they have accessed His death as an atonement in place of their own.

What these verses lead us to believe is that this would be "impossible" to do again.

For once they have "fallen away" from Him, to ask to be received again would be to crucify Him "afresh".

This is clearly different from a believer who is sinning but has not "fallen away" from His belief.

For one who still believes, can be made anew everyday.

Yet, these verse indicate that once you have disbelieved, it would be impossible to have Christ crucified again on your behalf.

This is perhaps eluding to the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit", the unpardonable sin.
For these verses state that the people who it would be impossible to redeem again were once "partakers of the Holy Ghost."
__________

Here's some verses that let us know that our names may be written in the book today but there are things we CAN do that will get our name blotted out.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Deu. 9:14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

Deu. 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
_________

Adam332

 

[ZoneChaos]

Jesus prayed for those who killed Him, “Father, forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do.”

That doe snot say they didn;t know right from wrong. That says they didn;lt know ehat they were oing was wrong. TO them they were putting to death a criminal. To them they knew criminals were to be out to death.

But that does not mean, by their lack of knowledge of who Jesus truly was, they they were incapable of understanding right from wrong. That is why they ouished people in the first place... becasue they knew right from wrong. If they did not, they wouldn;t have punished anhone in the first place.. Jesus or the thieves.

The Holy Spirit is the one that convicts us and gives us wisdom.

The Holy Spirit is not exclusive to Christiasn. The Holy Spirit convicts non-Christians as well. That bis how, as you have said, poeple come to know Chrsit, by the work of God, not thremselves.

You can’t know God and His Word without knowing right from wrong.

Never said you could. I am saying you can know right from wrong, and still not know God.

Many who are Christians see nothing wrong with murder in certain cases.

That is a lie. Gice me one example, or one Christian who thinks this.

What is it that separates us from God? Sin
What is it that brings forth sin? John said that every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lusts, and when lust is conceived it bringeth forth sin.
The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.
So, to have the desires contrary to God and conceive those desires brings forth sin…..unrighteousness.
What man considers righteousness is as filthy rags.
Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
It is knowing the truth that is righteousness….merely believing God is counted as righteousness even though we do not understand. (Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.)

The truth you mention is not the knowedge of Good and Evil.. of right and wrong. That truth is the knowledge that man cannot save Himself, and that Man needs Jesus as Lord of His life.

What I asked for was scripture to back up your claim that righteousness=knowing right from wrong.

Is he accountable? Yes…..he is damned.

So the carnal mind (non-christians) are accountable, even though they do not know the difference between right and wrong? Just want to clarify what you believe.

The murder God speaks of is the spiritual murder, although according to Paul, there is a certain show of wisdom in will worship.

Ask an athiest if they know right from wrong.

The spirit stands at the door and knocks, and the will opens it……it is God that works in us to will and to do His good pleasure…..so, it is God that opens the door.

Oh my goodness! Ok.. lets look at scripture:

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Who's doing the opening here? God or man?

God sent His Word to save the world…..it will not return to Him void but will accomplish all that it was sent forth to do. Now, that is predestination.
Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. That is predestination.

I do not even know where ot begin. You are not even on the right subject of the conversation here. I am tlaking about predestination as it relates to mankinds Salvation. Not the predestined will of God for Jesus Chrsit to be sent to earth.

It is God’s will that none should perish

God's will that none should perish or that none will perish?

lay down your life and you will gain it……try to save it, and you will lose it anyway…..and losing it, you will gain it

I almost laughed when I read this. This is the beggest twist of scripture I have ever seen. Who taught you this?

So, what you are saying then, with the statement above is that it does not matter if we lay down our lives or not? It does not matter if we surrender ourselves and let God take control? It doesnot matter if Jeus is or is not Lord of your life? It doe snot mattere than Jesus Died for us? Regardless of wethe we accept the meaning of His deathn or not.. we will still be saved?

Open your eyes, Woman! What you have just said above invalidates Jesus Christ! It denies the importance of His death.

“for His pleasure all things were created”……

you really want to look at this verse? Look at in in context with surrounding scripture?

Revelation can be an eye opening look at the nature of Character of God.

 

[Marillyn]

That doe snot say they didn;t know right from wrong. That says they didn;lt know ehat they were oing was wrong. TO them they were putting to death a criminal. To them they knew criminals were to be out to death.

If they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong, then they didn’t know right from wrong.
Even your addition to that verse doesn’t support your perception.

But that does not mean, by their lack of knowledge of who Jesus truly was, they they were incapable of understanding right from wrong. That is why they ouished people in the first place... becasue they knew right from wrong. If they did not, they wouldn;t have punished anhone in the first place.. Jesus or the thieves.

They judged, yes, but because they did not know right from wrong, they rendered unrighteous judgment. You cannot KNOW truth (conceive truth in your heart…understand) and bring forth unrighteousness. But, conceiving what you think is truth can. They THOUGHT they knew right from wrong and acted accordingly.

When you know truth, you know right from wrong and cannot be deceived.

The Holy Spirit is not exclusive to Christiasn. The Holy Spirit convicts non-Christians as well. That bis how, as you have said, poeple come to know Chrsit, by the work of God, not thremselves.

Right. I’m not sure what your point is. Calling oneself a Christian or going to church does not make one a Christian.

Never said you could. I am saying you can know right from wrong, and still not know God.

No, you can’t know right from wrong and not know God…..you can what sounds like right from wrong. To throw a clinker in, if you know wrong, you don’t know God. “Knowing,” in the Biblical sense, is becoming one with---copulating.

That is a lie. Gice me one example, or one Christian who thinks this.

Many condone abortion in cases where the mother’s life is in danger and sometimes in cases of rape. (This is speaking earthly, though, because that is what you are referring to. The Word is spiritual. )

The truth you mention is not the knowedge of Good and Evil.. of right and wrong. That truth is the knowledge that man cannot save Himself, and that Man needs Jesus as Lord of His life.

What I asked for was scripture to back up your claim that righteousness=knowing right from wrong.

Switching phraseology causes confusion. There is a difference between “knowing good and evil” and “knowing right from wrong”. Spiritually speaking, knowing (conceiving) good and evil produces hybrids. When you know the truth, you can see that what looked evil was all part of the process…..remember Jesus saying that the master of a great household has need both of clean and unclean vessels? ….and God saying He formed the darkness and created evil ….that He does all those things? and that God does all things well? ….and that God works all things together after the counsel of His will….and His will is good?
It is being guided by the Holy Spirit that we know right FROM wrong….for the Holy Spiirt guides us into all truth (so that we can KNOW the truth) by telling us right from wrong….”this is the way, walk ye in it”.

So the carnal mind (non-christians) are accountable, even though they do not know the difference between right and wrong? Just want to clarify what you believe.

Accountable? Yes. Every man will give an account for every idle word. (The word we conceive in our hearts is manifested in our thoughts (forehead) and deeds (right hand). Our works (words….what is produced by the heart….out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh) will be judged by fire.
1 Cor. 3: 13 EVERY MAN'S WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

Ask an athiest if they know right from wrong.

Would an atheist be speaking from his own understanding or from God’s wisdom?
The two are contrary, you know.
There are some professed atheists who are more christian than some professed Christians.
You can’t judge a person by a label anymore than you can judge a book by its cover.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Who’s talking?
If any man hears whose voice? God’s?
What does God speak? His Word?
Who is Jesus Christ? God’s Word?
Who can hear God’s voice? Certainly not the natural ears of man, so can hear? Only the spirit who has spiritual ears.
There is only one spirit. Consider that the kingdom of God is within you.
And, consider where Paul had the Son revealed. Ga 1:16 TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


So, who's doing the opening here? God or man?

I do not even know where ot begin. You are not even on the right subject of the conversation here. I am tlaking about predestination as it relates to mankinds Salvation. Not the predestined will of God for Jesus Chrsit to be sent to earth.

Ah, but it is the same subject. The focus is different.

God's will that none should perish or that none will perish?

2Pe 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ro 2:4 - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEADETH THEE TO REPENTANCE?

Ps 52:1 - Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? THE GOODNESS OF GOD ENDURETH CONTINUALLY.

The goodness of God is severity to the carnal man (mind, because as a man thinketh, so is he)
Ro 11:22 - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

That which hinders the emitting of the seed (the seed is the Word) cannot remain. It will be pushed back out of the way or can be cut of (circumcision).

It is the carnal man that receiveth not the things of God…..the heart (body of the seed) cannot conceive the life (embryo) as long as the seed casing (carnal mind) blocks absorption of faith (water).

I almost laughed when I read this. This is the beggest twist of scripture I have ever seen. Who taught you this?

It’s supposed to be foolishness to you.
The end result is the same……as is with being baptized in fire and being thrown into a lake of fire.

So, what you are saying then, with the statement above is that it does not matter if we lay down our lives or not? It does not matter if we surrender ourselves and let God take control? It doesnot matter if Jeus is or is not Lord of your life? It doe snot mattere than Jesus Died for us? Regardless of wethe we accept the meaning of His deathn or not.. we will still be saved?

Well, it’s harder to kick against the pricks…..but even if you don’t you still get pricked.
You WILL lay down your life. You will surrender. God IS in control. Yes, it matters whether Jesus is Lord of your life. That’s the reason God fulfills His Word. It matters that Christ died for us first….AND that Jesus died. You will “accept” the meaning for you SHALL know the truth…and yes, you will be saved.

Open your eyes, Woman! What you have just said above invalidates Jesus Christ! It denies the importance of His death.

The only thing it invalidates is your understanding (which, btw, is earthly) of Jesus Christ and God’s work through Him.

Revelation can be an eye opening look at the nature of Character of God.

I agree. As the Queen of Sheba said, “the half has never yet been told”. The gospel is better news than we have been led to believe. It truly is good news of great joy to all men.

 

[ZoneChaos]

If they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong, then they didn’t know right from wrong.

The couldn't have been misinformed? Believing a lie?

They judged, yes, but because they did not know right from wrong, they rendered unrighteous judgment.

So, they knew Blaspheme was wrong. They knew the wages of that crime. And they were told that Jesus commited it, yet they were wrong in thinking that Jesus should be punished for it?

They may have been wrong, becasue they didn;t know the truth, but they knew the difference between what was right and what was wrong. If they didn't, why not let Jesus go, the criminal that he appeared to be?

Right. I’m not sure what your point is. Calling oneself a Christian or going to church does not make one a Christian.

you said that only thos ewho know right from wrong (whoich you also equated to having wisdom form God) could be Christians. You said "The Holy Spirit is the one that convicts us and gives us wisdom"

So, does the Holy Spirit convict non-Christiasns, or not?

Does conviction also cause Salvation in your eyes?

No, you can’t know right from wrong and not know God…..you can what sounds like right from wrong. To throw a clinker in, if you know wrong, you don’t know God. “Knowing,” in the Biblical sense, is becoming one with---copulating.

I am not referring to "know" in the Biblical sense. With that cleared up, can a person know (be aware and understand) the differences between right and wrong? Can a person who is not saved know it is wrong to steal?

Many condone abortion in cases where the mother’s life is in danger and sometimes in cases of rape.

If they do, they then condone murder.

There is a difference between “knowing good and evil” and “knowing right from wrong”.

No, there is not. They are synonymous in language and in meaning. Having the knowldge of Good and Evil is having the knowledge that allows oyu to discern the differences in what is right and what is wrong.

Accountable? Yes.

Children.. even babies would fit in to this too, right? They do not know the difference between right and wrong. They therefore have Carnal minds as you put it. So they too would be held accountable for being a sinful creature due to thier lack of understanding, yes?

Would an atheist be speaking from his own understanding or from God’s wisdom?

His own obviously. Would a Athiest know the difference between right and wrong?

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
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Only the spirit who has spiritual ears.
There is only one spirit. Consider that the kingdom of God is within you.
And, consider where Paul had the Son revealed. Ga 1:16 TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

So, who's doing the opening here? God or man?

I asked you first... God or man? And since oyu elected to dodge my question with wuestions of your own, I will answer yours.

Who’s talking? - Jesus Christ.
If any man hears whose voice? - Jesus Christ's
God’s? - God Yes, for Jesus Christ is God.
What does God speak? - The truth of salvation.
His Word? - The Gospel, yes.
Who is Jesus Christ? - God
God’s Word? - Yes.
Who can hear God’s voice? - Any man who hears it.
Certainly not the natural ears of man, so can hear? - The natural mind of man can. For until Man is reborn, that is all man has.

 

[Marillyn]

Of course they were deceived. That's the reason they didn't know right from wrong. (sigh) They did what they thought was right...it sure seemed right according to their understanding....the problem was that they didn't have correct understanding....all they went by was outward appearance without understanding the truth.

They thought they knew what blasphemy was. They were the ones blaspheming but accused Jesus of it.

Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts non-Christians. That's the way non-Christians become Christians.

Conviction is part of the process of salvation.

Well, if you're not talking about things in the Biblical sense, why are we even using the scripture? And, what difference does it matter anyway if we're going to toss out the Bible? --or not use its meaning?

That reminds me of a forum where the moderator was going to prove the Bible was wrong. He could, too, based on his rules which restricted using the Bible's meaning. He was like the kid with the bat who wanted to play a ballgame to see who would win, but the other team would never get to bat. :lol:

Christians condoning murder--yes, didn't I say that?

Knowing good and evil is knowing the truth (alpha) in one's own understanding (anti omega) rather than the omega.

Knowing right from wrong is the ability to distinguish alpha anti omega from alpha omega.

Yes. Babies would be held accountable too. Babies will not have remain carnally minded either. They will be judged and their death (carnal mindedness) will be consumed, too, leaving them spirtually minded....which is life and peace.

Bingo. If the atheist spoke from his own understanding, then you couldn't rely upon what he said.

The answer to "who's doing the opening ?" is the same as the one I just gave about who makes the choice in the other thread.

 

[LouisBooth]

"You can’t know God and His Word without knowing right from wrong. "

Bull. I knew what was right and wrong long before I became a christian.

Mar, the major difference I see between you and Christ is that you're confusing, christ made the message simple and I think you still miss parts of it

 

[Marillyn]

Nah, you still don't know right from wrong.
And, I make about as much sense to you as Christ did to the Jews.

 

[ZoneChaos]

the problem was that they didn't have correct understanding....all they went by was outward appearance without understanding the truth.

I am not talking about them understanding the tuth of who God is.. I am tlaking aboutnthem haviung the mental capacity to descern a right action from a wrong action. In this discussion I don't care if they knew correctly what things were right and what things were wrong, only that they did or did not have the mental capacity to recognize the differences between something right and something wrong.

Well, if you're not talking about things in the Biblical sense

Cognitive functipon is what i am talking about. If you are not then fine, I have misunderstood this entire time what you meant when you said a person has to have a the ability to know right from wrong to be a Christian. I read that belief of yours like this: I person cannot have the mental capacity of deciding to sin or not to sin in a given situation until they are saved.

It now seems that you were actually saying: A person will know bare fruit of a Christian until they are a Chrsitian.

I agree wiht the latter. However, the latter was no the topic on the convrsation you jumped into.

Christians condoning murder--yes, didn't I say that?

Yes you did. I a shocked you would say it. Muder for any reason is still a sin. Condoning sin is rejecting God, for God cannot exist with sin. To accept one is to reject the other.

The answer to "who's doing the opening ?" is the same as the one I just gave about who makes the choice in the other thread.

So, the verse is wrong when it sasy "if any man"? It should read "if God"?

Knowing good and evil is knowing the truth (alpha) in one's own understanding (anti omega) rather than the omega.

Knowing right from wrong is the ability to distinguish alpha anti omega from alpha omega.

For clarification, lets drop the word know.. and replace it with the word discern, since it reflects the same meaning that I was using with the word know originally.

Can a man discern right from wrong without being a Christian?

 

[Marillyn]

Z,
Man can be so overcome by his own imaginations and emotions that he cannot think clearly...man has the unique capacity to rationalize "wrong actions" making them seem like "right actions" in his own mind for his particular circumstances. That's how people get off on "temporary insanity". They don't KNOW right from wrong because that knowledge does not change. But, not knowing, their perception sways with circumstances.

Cognition depends upon understanding or reasoning.
Yes, people can obey the laws of the land without understanding.....they can know what is right or wrong according to man's laws. But, man's laws deal with outward appearance.

According to man's laws, you are free to sit in your bedroom and be Jack the Ripper in your own mind, imagining and relishing every gorey detail and convince yourself that you are a holy person because you would never do it.

What you don't realize is that if you enjoy imagining it, you would do IF you could be certain that no one would ever know.

It is not a matter of knowing right from wrong, but a matter of knowing what you can get away with.....and a lot of people overestimate what they can get away with.

What SEEMS to be choosing right or wrong in the natural is not choosing at all. The natural man cannot choose....he can only do wrong. But, as Paul said, there is a SHOW of wisdom in will worship.....by restraining the will (which looks like knowing right from wrong) you don't end up being shot or going to prison.

So, yes, the ability is there---just as the spirit is there. But, in the unregenerate, that ability lies dormant and needs to be awakened or quickened. Having the ability is nothing. Many cars have an engine but don't run.

Christians condoning murder--hey, I didn't offer an opinion, just stated a fact. In situations such as rape or the endangered life of the mother, many Christian churches condone abortion. You were saying Christians don't....I was showing that Christians do and used that as an example.

No, the error is not in the verse but in your understanding of it.

Changing the word "know" to "discern" only changes the sound of the the question. "The natural man receiveth not the things of God for they are spiritually discerned." The "things" of God include truth...and one must discern (perceive, understand, receive) truth in order to distinguish right from wrong. The counterfeit looks authentic until you see it alongside the original.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Man can be so overcome by his own imaginations and emotions that he cannot think clearly...man has the unique capacity to rationalize "wrong actions" making them seem like "right actions" in his own mind for his particular circumstances.

According to you, man does not have this ability, becasue man doe snot have the capaicity to distingusih riht and wrong in te first place, in order to rationalize it one way or the other.

That's how people get off on "temporary insanity". They don't KNOW right from wrong because that knowledge does not change.

So, every non-Christian can plead temporary insanity?

The natural man cannot choose....he can only do wrong.

So temptation is null then? If i am tempted to do something, it isn;t becasue I know right from wrong, and choose wrong, but it is becasue OI don;t know right from wrong, and will always choose wrong? What's the point of Satan outting forth the effort ot tempt? Why not just let us be?

I I do not have the ability toi distinguish right from wrong, and thus, will always do wrong, then temptation does not exist, for temptation is an attempt to convince a person that they can get away with what is wrong.

You were saying Christians don't....I was showing that Christians do and used that as an example.

I didnlt say they don;t I said they are wrong in doing it.

Changing the word "know" to "discern" only changes the sound of the the question. "The natural man receiveth not the things of God for they are spiritually discerned." The "things" of God include truth...and one must discern (perceive, understand, receive) truth in order to distinguish right from wrong. The counterfeit looks authentic until you see it alongside the original.

So, now we are using the word distinguish? Fine same question.. using Distinguish.

 

[Marillyn]

No, man has the ability....he cannot use it until he knows the truth, though. And, he cannot know the truth without knowing God....and that's eternal life...salvation.

In man's government? Yeah, anyone can plead temporary insanity. They just have to be able to convince the judge and jury.

(I think you are still confusing what man considers to be right from wrong with right from wrong.)

You don't seem to understand that the work of Satan is part of the process. God has need of unclean vessels, too. God controls what and to what degree Satan does anything. Remember, God said that He created evil too. Remember, He has a purpose for everything He does....one purpose really. And, God does all things well. When you understand how a good God created things out of His own good Word, yet creates evil without doing evil, you will have a major piece of the puzzle in place.

Just because you say they are wrong does not make them wrong anywhere but in your own mind. In their minds you are wrong, but that doesn't make you wrong anywhere but in their minds. The point is---it doesn't matter what man thinks about what God says or anything else. All that matters is what God means.

Distinguish, discern, understand, know......the carnal man can do none of thise things. He's dead and he can't shine any light on his darkness. God has to do it. Compare spiritual death to what you know about physical death. How can a physically dead man do anything to help himself?

 

[InspectorVol]

You did a good job presenting it also.(much better than I) In fact you did such a good job that you will likely not get an answer to it as it is not a popular belief here because it puts more responsibility on people than they want.

 

[Marillyn]

Adam will get an answer.
I started on one, but haven't had time to finish it due to the time it has taken to address already ongoing topics.

Actually, I was hoping someone would go ahead and lay down the basics so it wouldn't take that much time.

 

[ZoneChaos]

No, man has the ability....he cannot use it until he knows the truth, though.

So you are tellig me that before i wa saved, I dinlt know that stealing was wrong? Or I didn't know that pushing one of my classmates was wrong? I beg to differ. I knew they were wrong.. and i knew what the right thing to do was, that I shuld have done. Before I was saved I knew the difference between right and wrong. How can this be explained?

 

[LouisBooth]

:lol: mar, don't put yourself up there because Christ ALWAYS made sence. That is why he talked in paraibles, to better explain things. You just confuse people by throwing in greek letters here and there. I understand you completely, but I hardly agree with your words, and I dont' think the bible does either unless you take a far out in left field interpation of it, totally ignoring all context.

 

[Marillyn]

You still steal....you rob the poor.
But, you are oblivious to it because you don't understand what stealing is.