once saved always saved

[ZoneChaos]

And while they are in Jesus' hand, NO ONE can snatch them out of his hand - NOT even death./quote]

UNless you thinkn Jesus would decide ot let go of His children.. then OSAS applies here.

But what happens when people GET OUT of Jesus' hand? They LOSE Jesus' and the Father's protec

Verses above state tha is not going to happen.

Where do you find those people who are in Jesus' hand? Where do you find those people whom God GAVE to Jesus?
[/quotew]

They are those who are christiasn.. who are saved, who have made Jesus Lord of thier life.

Unfortunately, the first-century church was OVERTAKEN by FALSE teachers AFTER all the apostles died. Her name was changed to Roman Catholic Apostolic Church and her doctrines were changed to doctrines of demons (read the doctrines at 1 Tim.

The frist centurry church was not taken over by the Roamn Ctholic Churhc. I to agree the the ROman Catholic church was not that same church, but the 1st centurry church has alwasy existed and alwasy wil.. the first century church is not defined by its members or its titles , etc.. it is defined by the truth. There have been chtristians all threough histiry, even during the Roman Catholic Chruch and those Christiasn were and still are the Church od Christ.

Despite the title of a denomonation, a Christians is the Chruch. the INC is jusr an organizatoion of man.. nothing more. It does not define the Chruch. Believers do.

Only this time, Jesus "little flock" started, as prophesied, in the "far east" at the time, "ends of the earth." That place in the "far east" is a small country (much like Galilee) called the Philippines. Thus, the re-emerged church is called "Iglesia Ni Cristo" in Pilipino which means "church of Christ" in English.

This is an out right lie...

 

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

You wrote:

UNless you thinkn Jesus would decide ot let go of His children.. then OSAS applies here.

Lie #1: In other posts, you vehemently insisted that Jesus is NOT the Father and the Father is NOT Jesus. Why do you say now that Jesus has children? Deosn't that IMPLY tht Jesus is God the FATHER? If he is a Father other than God the Father, then you are saying that the Bible is NOT telling the truth because it says that we have only one God the Father. Either you or the Bible is a LIAR Zone. Which is it?

Lie #2: You say Jesus has children. But Jesus said in John 20:17 that he was ascending to HIS Father and to our Father, to HIS God and our God. And he ordered Mary to tell HIS brethren, the disciples. In short Zone, Jesus CONSIDERS his disciples BROTHERS - not children. Thus, by saying that Jesus has children, then you are saying that the Bible is NOTa telling the truth. Either you or the Bible is a LIAR Zone. Which is it?

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

"Deosn't that IMPLY tht Jesus is God the FATHER? "

:lol: no..and you spelled doesn't wrong

ed, you're getting way off topic here. Now do you have any biblical evidence to say that Once saved always saved is not blbical when it is taken in context?

 

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

ed, you're getting way off topic here. Now do you have any biblical evidence to say that Once saved always saved is not blbical when it is taken in context?

Whatever you mean by "taken in context" the doctrine that "once saved always saved" is NOT biblical.

Now answer my questions to Zone if you can. Otherwise, let other more sensible people do it. Thanks.

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

It is very biblical and you cannot show me otherwise, or at least you have failed to do so this far. You are taking verses out of context. That's what I mean by taking verses out of context. You distort their meaning by relocated them into another situation that the speaker was not addressing.

It is written ed that NONE can snatch them from the father's hand. Do you think he was lying when he said that ed?

 

[ZoneChaos]

Are we the Father's Children? Yes. Are we God's children? Yes. Is Jesus God? Yes. Is the Holy Spirit God? Yes. Are we Jesus' Children? Yes. Are we the Holy Spirits Children? Yes.

No I am not implying that Jesus is the Father. The Father is the Father and Jesus is Jesus. hey are both the same God, though, and we are adopted children of that God.

 

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

Do you know what "Joint-heir" mean? What is an "heir" Zone? Who does the Bible say as "heirs of God?"

Are you aware that those who have been REDEEMED by the blood of Christ by BECOMING members of the TRUE church of Christ have RECEIVED adoption as SONS of God, and IF sons are HEIRS of God (Gal. 4:7) and "JOINT-HEIRS" wih Christ (Rom. 8:17)?

If Christ is God, why is he an HEIR of God and JOINT-HEIR with all adopted sons of God? Are you saying Zone that you are right and apostle Paul is wrong?

Ed

 

[Ben johnson]

What would be the "point" or reason for asking this question? WOuod it be to discuss
the differences in wethe ror not a person has eternal salvation, or by his own action can
lose it? Or am I to assume this question was really presented o find out if it is or is not
possible to know if another is saved?

It matters because it "colors" our entire perspective. If I believe in "Predestined-Election", then I might share the Gospel with the world, but I will not worry about whether or not the "grow" or "wither and die from shallow roots". After all, if they are predestined, GOD will make them grow or not.

If I believe in "Carnal Christian", then all I seek is for them to say "The Sinner's Prayer" and they will be magically saved. They need not stop sinning or work on drawing close to God, 'cause there is no difference between carnal-lost and carnal-saved. Except for having "believed" (whatever THAT means), having said "the Sinner's Prayer"...

If I believe in "Eternal Security", then it is perfectly all right if I have more pressing matters day-to-day than to spend time with my Lord. After all, it's not like I can lose salvation, is it??? I also don't hafta worry too much about growth, because I can never lose "the eisodos-entrance to Heaven", so no big deal...

BUT, if I believe in "Responsible Grace" (and I DO), then I very much need to "make certain of my calling and election", that those characteristics which accompany a "truly-saved-Christian" may be found in me, that "by my fruits I am known", that I will not "have forgotten my former purification from my sins" and that the eisodos-GATE-OF-HEAVEN will be abundantly provided to me". 2Pet1:2-11

Those who hold to the very Scriptural premise of "OSNAS", believe salvation is "fellowship with/in/through Jesus". Identically, "abiding in Christ". So that if we CEASE to "abide", we cease to be saved.

"I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you. If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is cut off as a dried branch and thrown into the fire..." Jn15

"Watch yourselves, that you not lose what we (you) have accomplished. Anyone who goes too far (goes on ahead) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD. But he who abides in the teachings, has both the Father and the Son." 2Jn. (Not gonna tell you which chapter...)

"He who HAS the Son HAS THE LIFE. I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life." 1Jn5:12

"If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and the truth is not in us..." 1Jn1:6

 

[LouisBooth]

"If I believe in "Carnal Christian", then all I seek is for them to say "The Sinner's Prayer" and they will be magically saved. They need not stop sinning or work on drawing close to God, 'cause there is no difference between carnal-lost and carnal-saved. Except for having "believed" (whatever THAT means), having said "the Sinner's Prayer"..."

Wrong-o ben. That's not what people that believe in OSAS believe. They (we) believe that can be the first step, but not the last one. If its true faith there are more steps to come. Its not just say this prayer and I move on :lol: Jesus didn't say that in the commision either. You're wrong in your generalization and way way off.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, Louis. You and I agree that there are more "steps to be taken". The "Carnal Christian" is only one facet of "OSAS". There are actually three quite different beliefs under the heading of "OSAS"; the "Carnal" one posits that "a person can be OUT OF FELLOWSHIP with Jesus, but still be in a saved RELATIONSHIP with Him. Jesus may well DENY YOU before the Father, but you will STILL WALK HEAVEN'S STREETS. I've seen this position persist even in light of direct passages as Heb10:26ff and 1Cor6:9ff.

Since I believe in both that salvation can be forfeited, AND that the Rapture occurs AFTER the Tribulation, then passages such as Mark 13 take on a terrible meaning. If Christians can "fall from grace", then the words, "You will be beaten, hated, and killed for My namesake; but he who endures to the end will be saved" become more critical in our attitudes.

I also believe this passage parallels 1Tim4:1ff. Every part of the Bible that I read, supports "free will". So as Peter says, "we are to be diligent to make sure of our calling and election; for as long as we practice these things (bear fruits that reveal our saved hearts), the "eisodos-gate-of-Heaven" will be abundantly provided to us. 1:1:10-11

Really, the "more steps" is simply another label for "our becoming Christlike" (Rom8:29, Eph4:13-15)

 

[Ben johnson]

So, which are you---"predestination" or "eternal security"?

 

[LouisBooth]

both We are predestinded because God knows our nature. We have eternal security if we have true faith, or as its put around here..Once saved always saved.

 

[Ben johnson]

OK, if we can never "fall from salvation", please help me understand these passages:
Col1:21-23
Gal5:4
1Tim4:1, Heb2:1-3, 3:12-14
2Pet2:20-22 (careful---they who are "again entangled", are the "ontos apofuego truly escaped through the clear and correct epignosis knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ" vs 2:2:18. See Peter 2:1:3-4 for an undeniable account of truly saved people who have escaped...)
James 5:19-20 (thanatos---physical death with implication of eternity in Hell)
2Jn2:8-9 (see 1Jn5:12-13)

These are just some of the passages that do not seem to allow "eternal security". Our inheritance may be "eternal" (1Peter1:4), but it seems to clearly say that our grasp of that inheritance (salvation) is forfeitable. Not from God's side, but from our own. See the Heb 3 passage above. And Heb 6, "It is impossible to restore them to repentance WHILE THEY ARE FALLING AWAY". The tense of the Greek is crucial here. And the "fulcrum", the pivitol word in the Heb6 passage, is "SINCE". SINCE they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him up to contempt. See Heb10:26ff

Can you help me understand these verses in a "OSAS" view???

 

[InspectorVol]

Absolutely not. The bible gives us numerous warnings about being steadfast and falling away. Here is an example:

2nd Peter 3rd Chapter verses 16 through 18,

16. as alsoin all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things are hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures.
17.You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
18.But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

 

[Blackhawk]

Inspector Vol,

"2nd Peter 3rd Chapter verses 16 through 18,
16. as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things are hard to understand,
which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures.
17.You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
18.But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Where does this say that they will lose their salvaton?

blackhaw

 

[InspectorVol]

Verse 17 says this. In particular (beware lest you fall from your own steadfastness, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked. What else could it mean? If you are led away you are not in the body of christ anymore therefore you lose your salvation. You can repent for sure but that has to be done. Also Matthew 10-23 says;
And ye shall be hated of men for my name's sake; but he that ENDURETH TIL THE END SHALL BE SAVED.
You have to live as a christian till your life ends to be saved, you are not saved until then.

 

[Blackhawk]

Verse 17 says this. In particular (beware lest you fall from your own steadfastness, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked. What else could it mean? If you are led away you are not in the body of christ anymore therefore you lose your salvation. You can repent for sure but that has to be done. Also Matthew 10-23 says; And ye shall be hated of men for my name's sake; but he that ENDURETH TIL THE END SHALL BE SAVED. You have to live as a christian till your life ends to be saved, you are not saved until then."

What happens if I lie? Am I being led away? I would say yes. If I die and do not repent of that one lie am I going to hell? Or does it take 2 sins? Or 50 sins? How many sins would it take before I am not living a christian life? Does the Bible say?

Also what about grace. Is it only grace that I ma saved like Ephesians 2:8,9 says? If I have to live good enough to be saved it seems like that is a work to me. So maybe I could boast. I could say I am not as sinful as you are because you did not repent which is a sin. So you are worse than I am. I got myself at least part way into Heaven. Could I say that? why or why not?

Blackhaw

 

[edpobre]

Friends,

Read 1 Cor. 5:9-13 and understand that one who is being saved can lose that hope of salvation if he remains wicked and is put OUTSIDE the church (v. 13) which Christ will save (Eph. 5:23).

Ed

 

[InspectorVol]

Yes we are saved by grace as WE ALL have sinned and fell short of the glory of God, but by his grace we are saved if we continue to walk in the light as he is in the light. Ergo we must strive to best of our ability to be as he would have us to be and then although we are still sinners he will have mercy on us at the end. IMHO I don't think one would be condemed for being less than perfect because we can't help it. We are just lowly humans.
There are so many things I don't know but I vehemently believe that you cannot go around acting like a heathen(for lack of a better word) and think you are going to be saved because you once believed.

 

[Blackhawk]

"There are so many things I don't know but I vehemently believe that you cannot go around acting like a heathen(for lack of a better word) and think you are going to be saved because you once believed."

i will agree to that. I think we both think christians should live a holy life. What I believe though is that the Christian is notsaved because of his holy living. now after reading your post I do not thik yu do either. So where is the point that we disagree on? I think I might of been cofused about what you believed so maybe there is none. However I do believe in OSAS. I think that goes along with God's grace and mercy. That it goes with Eph2:8,9 and other Biblical verses that say that God saves us. Ans Also the verse that I think I quoted earlier in this thread about no one being able to take you out of God's hand. I think that no one is also oneself. I believe that god completely sustains our salvation. That even though we ought to live a holy life that is not what saves us at all.

Also i believe that holy living is an outgrowth of being saved. that if one is saved the Holy Spiit works with us to sanctify us. Also since we are saved and sicne we love the Lord we do as jesus said and obey Him. (Jesus said if you love me you will obey me.) So us living holy is a natural outpouring of our love towards God. And the great thing is that God gives us all the stregnth to do it.

now you could believe all these things I have stated but waht I got from your previous post was that you do not believe i OSAS. That you can fall out of God's hands by jumping out of them. I can't go with that because of scripture and because it makes salvation partly my own effort and not completely God's.

Really though either way I think that true Christians or christians that have not fallen away will be the same ones for both of us. Waht I mean is that I think that both of us if given a hypothetical situtation will probably come to the same conclusion as to if the person in that situation would be saved or not but we would have different reasons why. But really it makes no difference if you or I think that they or saved or not. only if God has them in the Lamb's book of life or not.

blackhaw