once saved always saved

Ed do you really think if I said "Oh @#$*!" I lose my salvation?

"So God's power is limited? You mean he can't work in the life of someone who doesn't believe he exists? So you are of the opinion that all Atheists are lost causes, and can never be saved? "

DA no God LIMITS himself. He will not force anything on anyone. That is the point. Yes he limits himself that way. If an atheist doesn't believe he exsists no matter what there is no way God will save him. How can I have a relationship with someone that doesn't know I'm alive even if I'm standing right in front of them?

"No, my point has been that (assuming anyone is 'saved') you don't know the difference. Is that so difficult to admit? Good grief! "

We admited we dont know who is saved but if someone doesn't think God exists its a safe bet to say they aren't because they don't believe the one that saves them exsists.

No, my point has been that (assuming anyone is 'saved') you don't know the difference. Is that so difficult to admit? Good grief!

Click to expand...

First I have nothignto admit.. i was never wroing in my saying that I do not know if you are a Christian or not.

Second.. I have sadi I did not know many tiumes. so why don't you listen? Good grief!

Third, Why not start a topic centered arounf wether it is or is not possible to know if someone is saved rathe rthan be in a topic about OSAS.. since your point was never wether we could or could not lose are salvation?

Once saved - always saved?

Ya' think?

Click to expand...

What would be the "point" or reason for asking this question? WOuod it be to discuss the differences in wethe ror not a person has eternal salvation, or by his own action can lose it? Or am I to assume this question was really presented o find out if it is or is not possible to know if another is saved?

Your "point" may be valid in the new thread you created on backsloifing, but it is obviously not the intent of this thread.

So, in this thread, your intention was either ot find out which was the case, eternal security or not...

or your intent was to agree with me that salvation is eternal...

or your intent was to agree that it is not...

From what I have read about your thoughts on this matter DA, the point you have been making is that no one is secure in their salvation. As i said before, to this I whole-heartily disagree.

LouisBooth,

As you posted on the backsliding thread:

to become an ineffective christian, yes, but that doesn't make me less of a christian, just an ineffective one My analogy is this..if an apple tree stops making apples for a short time..does it become a peach tree..no..

Click to expand...

Concerning OSAS, this is a very good analogy to use for this point, but not in the sense of changing the fruit it bears. If an apple tree stops making apples, does the tender of the orchard keep the tree, or does the tree get destroyed. The tree may be kept for a while to see if it will once again bear fruit, but if it is not bearing fruit at the time of harvest, then the tree will be destroyed to make a place for a more fruitful tree.

I think let's keep to hypotheticals and let's turn back to what the good book has to say and not opinions. I will start with the 1st verses.

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.

I think these verses alone are enough to show the OSAS is true. If one is saved then God has them. No one can take them away from Him. We are in His hand. In it we are safe for eternity.

Blackhaw

And what happens if a person should kill someone, or should steal an item from someone, or even if someone should tell a lie? Will these have eternal life?

drmmjr,

I will answer that with a question. Did Jesus Die for all sins or just ones that are not so bad?

Blackhaw

I guess I should clarify. If after accepting Jesus as their Savior, a person does these things, will they still have eternal life.

drmmjr,

I would still askthe same question but in a different way. what sins did Jesus not die for? what sins were bad enough that His death on the cross was not payment enough? I would say none. That is except the unpardonable sin. Which would be to not accept the gift of salvation that Jesus has granted us.

Blackhaw

Oh and I do believe that if they do those things being a Christian they still will be saved. they are not good things and those Christians will not be good people but salvation is based on God's goodness not ours.

I'll agree that Jesus died to pay for all sins. But once a person accepts Jesus, their life needs to change. They need to put the sinful things of the world behind them.

So your thought is that after accepting Jesus, a person can act the same as before, or even worse, and not have to worry about punishment.

drmmjr,

Yes and no. Yes they do not have to be good enough in order to be saved or stay saved.

No because if they are really saved they would not want to sin. That won't mean that they won't though. The best example of this is when i fell in love and got married to my wife. After I fell in love with her I did not want to go out or date any other women. She was it. The cream of the crop. Etc. Same thing occurs when one becomes a Christian. The desire to sin should goes away. Not that one won't sin or have temptaion but the desire to just sin and not care goes away.

So because I have faith I do good works. i do good works because I love God and want to obey Him.


Blackhaw

"If an apple tree stops making apples, does the tender of the orchard keep the tree, or does the tree get destroyed. "

Drrm..the tree is always kept the analogy you are talking about is related to a WHOLE nother subject. Parabiles are ment to prove a certain point, not to be universal in nature. That's what context is for. The tender of the orchard in this case would not burn the tree but care for it until it started producing fruit again, but that is not the point of the analogy.

"So your thought is that after accepting Jesus, a person can act the same as before, or even worse, and not have to worry about punishment. "

YOu need to read romans chapter 7. Paul shows there he still sins...do you think Paul is in hell?

The point is exactly what I've been saying throughout this thread. If you believe the OSAS doctrine, you should be prepared to employ it.

Click to expand...

So, now your point is that a OSAS Doctine beleiver shoud employ the doctrine they beleive in.. how many points you got?

That means 'put it to work'... allow it to apply to people... get it? And you obviously don't.

Click to expand...

How is it obvious that I don't?

Lets get to the bottom of this. You vrought up the question,
Once saved - Always Saved?

So, why did you bring this up? What was the point? What are you after? A simple reply is yes.? That enough? If so, then great problem solved.

I am not backed inot a corner by the doctrine of OSAS.

I believe a person wh is saved is alwasy saved.

I beleive that a persons salvation is ony known by God and that person.

I believe that we can recognize other christiasn by their fruit.

Blackhaw,

You wrote:

I think let's keep to hypotheticals and let's turn back to what the good book has to say and not opinions. I will start with the 1st verses.

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.

I think these verses alone are enough to show the OSAS is true. If one is saved then God has them. No one can take them away from Him. We are in His hand. In it we are safe for eternity.

Click to expand...

These verses do NOT support the doctrine of OSAS. In fact, these verses prove that OSAS is FALSE. You will note that Jesus was talking about people whom God GAVE to him. They are in his hand. And because they are in his hand, they are also in his Father's hand. And while they are in Jesus' hand, NO ONE can snatch them out of his hand - NOT even death.

But what happens when people GET OUT of Jesus' hand? They LOSE Jesus' and the Father's protection.

Where do you find those people who are in Jesus' hand? Where do you find those people whom God GAVE to Jesus?

Apostle Paul, in his letter to the Colossians said, that those "whom God DELIVERS from the power of darkness, He TRANSLATES (brings safely) into the KINGDOM of His son, in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Col. 1:13-14).

What is this kingdom of God's son in whom there is redemption through Christ's blood, the forgiveness of sins?

It is NONE other than the church which Christ built (Matt. 16:1 , for whom he GAVE his life (Eph. 5:225), the church he PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:2 and the church that Christ WILL SAVE (Eph. 5:23).

INSIDE the church, one is safe and assured of salvation because not even death will prevail against the church that Christ built (Matt. 16:1 .

OUTSIDE the church, one becomes APART from Christ, WITHOUT God and WITHOUT hope in the world (Eph. 2:12).

Why is one APART from Christ OUTSIDE the church?

Because the church is Christ's BODY and is joined to Christ as the HEAD (Col. 1:1 . Thus, to be IN UNION with Christ, one has to become a MEMBER of Christ's BODY, the church.

What is the name of Christ's church?

Of course the church that Chrst built, HIS church, is named after him. Have you heard of someone whose name is David but his body is callled various names? It would be absurd, right?

Apostle Paul called the members of the first-century church "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16). The first-century church was called by its Hebrew or Greek name which means "church of Christ" in English.

Unfortunately, the first-century church was OVERTAKEN by FALSE teachers AFTER all the apostles died. Her name was changed to Roman Catholic Apostolic Church and her doctrines were changed to doctrines of demons (read the doctrines at 1 Tim. 4:1-3).

But Jesus foretold that in the future, his "other sheep" will hear his voice and there will be ONE flock and ONE shepherd (John 10:16). This was fulfilled in 1914 when Jesus' "other sheep" heard his voice and once again, the church of Christ LIVES.

Only this time, Jesus "little flock" started, as prophesied, in the "far east" at the time, "ends of the earth." That place in the "far east" is a small country (much like Galilee) called the Philippines. Thus, the re-emerged church is called "Iglesia Ni Cristo" in Pilipino which means "church of Christ" in English.

Going back to OSAS, as long as one is INSIDE the Iglesia Ni Cristo, he is in God's and Jesus' hands. But if one turns back to his WICKED ways, apostle says: "But those who are OUTSIDE God judges. Therefore, PUT AWAY from yourselves that WICKED person" (1 Cor. 5:13).

One who is PUT AWAY or EXPELLED from the church of Christ is one who is NOT able to ENDURE until the end of his life or until the end of the world (Matt. 24:13). He LOSES the promise of eternal life because once again, he becomes a stranger to the covenants of God (Eph. 2:12).

He who has eyes, let him see. He who has ears, let him hear. That he may be saved.

Ed

Ed, only God has the power to gove eterna life.. thus, from that verse we see that A, Jesus is God, and B, we are in God's hands.

The vereses say that once we are in God's hands, we can nver get out of God'd hands... that no one can take us away from His grasp.. including ourselves.