Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh, and there is also Acts 3:26, too.

"...having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:26).

So again, we always here the love of God and how Jesus died for our sins, but the message of how Jesus died or was raised up so as to turn away from our iniquities is never or rarely preached.


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[friend of]

John 14:23 is my favorite atm

Some confusion from the OSAS camp could be due to the fact that we're all sinners regardless, so people think it's okay to double down (idk). It is a spirit of laziness for people to not so much as try to live the way Christ instructed us to live. It's true we will never come close to achieving perfect adherence to the Law, but a stark lack of effort does not show respect to Christ for his sacrifice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 14:23 is my favorite atm

Some confusion from the OSAS camp could be due to the fact that we're all sinners regardless, so people think it's okay to double down (idk). It is a spirit of laziness for people to not so much as try to live the way Christ instructed us to live. It's true we will never come close to achieving perfect adherence to the Law, but a stark lack of effort does not show respect to Christ for his sacrifice.

I agree.

You may like Alan Ballou's videos.
They are really good.

Alan Ballou's YouTube Page.

And here is his website:
How to stop sinning | HowToStopSinning.com

This is really powerful stuff.
I created my own long list of verses at this thread here as a result of being inspired by watching his videos.


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[friend of]

Cool thanks!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Cool thanks!

You are most welcome.


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[friend of]

You are most welcome.

I'm checking out-

Help I'm stuck in sin | HowToStopSinning.com

and reading through

What are sins that lead to death | HowToStopSinning.com

Thanks again!

 

[LoveofTruth]

Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.

Start with the unanswerable verses in Hebrews 3:1,6,12. The OSAS camp cannot get past this section of scripture. i have never heard any escape the consequence of this, Many have tried and tired to say this is not talking about believers, but the verses speak for themselves, and are as clear as day to the unbiased reader,

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;...6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God....14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" ( Hebrews 3:1,6,12,14 KJV)


Also consider the holy angels who were created perfect in all their ways and abode in the truth, who some of them sinned and fell and did not abide in the truth and so are headed for the lake of fire. Peter warns if God spared not the angels that sinned...warning all who read.

But stick with hebrews 3:1,6,12,14 for now

 

[nomadictheist]

Start with the unanswerable verses in Hebrews 3:1,6,12. The OSAS camp cannot get past this section of scripture. i have never heard any escape the consequence of this, Many have tried and tired to say this is not talking about believers, but the verses speak for themselves, and are as clear as day to the unbiased reader,

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;...6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God....14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" ( Hebrews 3:1,6,12,14 KJV)


Also consider the holy angels who were created perfect in all their ways and abode in the truth, who some of them sinned and fell and did not abide in the truth and so are headed for the lake of fire. Peter warns if God spared not the angels that sinned...warning all who read.

But stick with hebrews 3:1,6,12,14 for now

I have never seen the other "camp" get past Jesus' own statement that He would not lose a single one of those that God has given Him. Nor do they seem to be able to grasp what it means when the scriptures tell us that the man who 'builds on the foundation' laid by Christ with 'straw' will himself be saved, but as one escaping through the fire as his works will be burned up.

But the whole argument is really nothing more than semantics. The Bible is pretty clear on one thing: You will know true believers by their works. Jesus says it many times. The apostles all speak of the necessity of good works. These passages aren't meant for us to judge whether people can 'lose their salvation,' but rather on the one hand, to assure us that if we are in Christ there is nothing in this whole world that can separate us from Him, and on the other hand, cause us to reflect on whether our lives abound with the good works that our Lord has prepared for us to walk in.

But let's get to Hebrews. There is something that you leave out of your red lettering that is very important. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief...

How does one come to salvation? By believing on the name of the one and only begotten Son of God. If you have a heart of unbelief, then you don't believe. The author even makes that clear at the end of the chapter where he says "so we see that they could not enter because of their unbelief."

Belief is tested by how we respond to God's will and God's calling. Just as the children of Israel were condemned for their unbelief, so those with unbelieving hearts who act the part of the Christian are condemned for their unbelief.

But when it comes to it, only God knows who has the unbelieving heart and who is the one who will himself be saved, even though his works are destroyed by the fire.

 

[LoveofTruth]

But let's get to Hebrews. There is something that you leave out of your red lettering that is very important. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief...

How does one come to salvation? By believing on the name of the one and only begotten Son of God. If you have a heart of unbelief, then you don't believe. The author even makes that clear at the end of the chapter where he says "so we see that they could not enter because of their unbelief."

Belief is tested by how we respond to God's will and God's calling. Just as the children of Israel were condemned for their unbelief, so those with unbelieving hearts who act the part of the Christian are condemned for their unbelief.

But when it comes to it, only God knows who has the unbelieving heart and who is the one who will himself be saved, even though his works are destroyed by the fire.

You are not accurate here , the writer includes himself in the wArning of being hardened through sin and having a evil heart of unbelief . The writer says take heed brethren, speaking as in the beginning vetsescto the holy brethren in Christ . You are two sting the scriptures here to try and escape the coesrvearningvto believers . Sin hardens the heart if men continue in it and this can lead to an evil heart of unbeliefbun DEPARTING from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you were oncecwith him and the people he speaks to are holy brethren on Christ.

 

[nomadictheist]

You are not accurate here , the writer includes himself in the wArning of being hardened through sin and having a evil heart of unbelief . The writer says take heed brethren, speaking as in the beginning vetsescto the holy brethren in Christ . You are two sting the scriptures here to try and escape the coesrvearningvto believers . Sin hardens the heart if men continue in it and this can lead to an evil heart of unbeliefbun DEPARTING from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you were oncecwith him and the people he speaks to are holy brethren on Christ.

Show me where he includes himself in that warning. You claim it, but it's not there.

Once again, the exact words he uses are "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief."
And in his second warning, "lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

While there could be a second discussion on whether these two warnings actually pertain to the same thing, in both cases the writer does not include himself.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Show me where he includes himself in that warning. You claim it, but it's not there.

Once again, the exact words he uses are "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief."
And in his second warning, "lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

While there could be a second discussion on whether these two warnings actually pertain to the same thing, in both cases the writer does not include himself.

Hete it is you correction verse

"14 For we [speaking of himself as well ] are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

And

"; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

 

[nomadictheist]

Hete it is you correction verse

"14 For we [speaking of himself as well ] are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

And

"; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

These verses are not part of the warning. He says "we are made partakers of Christ..." not "take heed, lest there exist in any of us...." big difference. On the one hand, he is including himself in those who are made partakers of Christ. On the other, he is warning that they must be watchful in case any of them have an unbelieving heart. The verses are there, and they are clear.

 

[LoveofTruth]

These verses are not part of the warning. He says "we are made partakers of Christ..." not "take heed, lest there exist in any of us...." big difference. On the one hand, he is including himself in those who are made partakers of Christ. On the other, he is warning that they must be watchful in case any of them have an unbelieving heart. The verses are there, and they are clear.

No you are wrong the verses are clear to the unbiased reader he is speaking that any believer, who is a holy brethren in Christ, can be hardened through sin and then have an unbelieving heart and depart from God. None could depart from God unless they were once in Christ. He also says that we (all who he speaks to including himself) are made partakers of Christ IF they hold the beginning of their confidence unto the end . This shows that continual faith is needed

The writer is writing to the believers , holy brethren in Christ so he is not saying words of warning to them . But he adds himself in the overview.

I marvel at how some as yourself can twist scripture so much tI try and escape the clear rebukevto the false doctrine of eternal security hat many teach . These verses are very very clear.

 

[nomadictheist]

No you are wrong the cersesate clear to the unbiased reader he is speaking that any believer who is a holy brethren in Christ can be hardened through sin and then have an unbelieving heart and depart from God. None could depart from God unless they were in Christ. He also says that we (all who he speaks to including himself) are made partakers of Christ IF they hold the beginning of their confidence unto the end . This shows that continual faith is needed

The writer is writing to the believers , holy brethren in Christ so he is not saying words of warningbto them . But he adds himself in the overview.

I marvel at how some as yourself can twist scripture so much tI try and escape the clear rebukevto the false doctrine of eternal security hat many teach . These verses are very ver clear.

One, could you please spell check as your answers can be very hard to read. Two, no matter how you try to frame it, the fact is that in the warnings he uses the word "you," not "us." It's clear that the warning of falling away was for "them" while the promise of being confirmed in Christ was for him and them. It's what the verses plainly say.

But you have demonstrated that you only like context as far as it agrees with you, because if you expand the context out to include the whole chapter, even, then the meaning becomes clear.

This chapter is talking about the people of Israel, who were promised the "land flowing with milk and honey." Yet the generation that saw the deliverance from Egypt was never able to enter that land. Even though they saw God, through great wonders, work his deliverance from Egypt, they hardened their hearts every time there was trouble, because of their unbelieving hearts. That is why that warning is there. The author of Hebrews is saying to take heed - that is, to take a warning from the people of that time - and not persist in unbelief despite seeing God's wondrous deeds. That is why he talks about their heart of unbelief, and adds at the end that the reason they could not enter His rest was because of their unbelief. He wants to stress that unbelief will result in death.

The next chapter then makes it clear. He says in Hebrews 4 (beginning in verse 1):

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Again, here the author includes himself ("We which have believed do enter into rest"). It is all about belief and unbelief. Those who do not enter God's rest do not enter due to their unbelief.

 

[LoveofTruth]

One, could you please spell check as your answers can be very hard to read. Two, no matter how you try to frame it, the fact is that in the warnings he uses the word "you," not "us." It's clear that the warning of falling away was for "them" while the promise of being confirmed in Christ was for him and them. It's what the verses plainly say.

But you have demonstrated that you only like context as far as it agrees with you, because if you expand the context out to include the whole chapter, even, then the meaning becomes clear.

This chapter is talking about the people of Israel, who were promised the "land flowing with milk and honey." Yet the generation that saw the deliverance from Egypt was never able to enter that land. Even though they saw God, through great wonders, work his deliverance from Egypt, they hardened their hearts every time there was trouble, because of their unbelieving hearts. That is why that warning is there. The author of Hebrews is saying to take heed - that is, to take a warning from the people of that time - and not persist in unbelief despite seeing God's wondrous deeds. That is why he talks about their heart of unbelief, and adds at the end that the reason they could not enter His rest was because of their unbelief. He wants to stress that unbelief will result in death.

The next chapter then makes it clear. He says in Hebrews 4 (beginning in verse 1):

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Again, here the author includes himself ("We which have believed do enter into rest"). It is all about belief and unbelief. Those who do not enter God's rest do not enter due to their unbelief.

The context is also clear. We which have believed in Chapter 4 is again speaking to the HOLY BRETHREN in Christ as he said earlier. The ones he is speaking to are Christians who are of Jesus household as he was. There is no way to avoid this reality in the verses, no matter how you spin it.

The story and warning of the Ot saints who did not enter in because of unbelief is used to reinforced the danger of becoming hardened through the deceitfulness of sin and then having an evil heart of unbelief.

 

[nomadictheist]

The context is also clear. We which have believed in Chapter 4 is again speaking to the HOLY BRETHREN in Christ as he said earlier. The ones he is speaking to are Christians who are of Jesus household as he was. There is no way to avoid this reality in the verses, no matter how you spin it.

The story and warning of the Ot saints who did not enter in because of unbelief is used to reinforced the danger of becoming hardened through the deceitfulness of sin and then having an evil heart of unbelief.

I'm not spinning it. You are. He says "we who believe are entering into the rest." The true believers are entering into the rest. He is writing to a church. Every church body from the beginning has numbered at least some who persisted in unbelief. I have laid out the text and the context, which you continue to ignore. It's not about works. It's about belief.

 

[LoveofTruth]

One, could you please spell check as your answers can be very hard to read. Two, no matter how you try to frame it, the fact is that in the warnings he uses the word "you," not "us." It's clear that the warning of falling away was for "them" while the promise of being confirmed in Christ was for him and them. It's what the verses plainly say.

But you have demonstrated that you only like context as far as it agrees with you, because if you expand the context out to include the whole chapter, even, then the meaning becomes clear.

This chapter is talking about the people of Israel, who were promised the "land flowing with milk and honey." Yet the generation that saw the deliverance from Egypt was never able to enter that land. Even though they saw God, through great wonders, work his deliverance from Egypt, they hardened their hearts every time there was trouble, because of their unbelieving hearts. That is why that warning is there. The author of Hebrews is saying to take heed - that is, to take a warning from the people of that time - and not persist in unbelief despite seeing God's wondrous deeds. That is why he talks about their heart of unbelief, and adds at the end that the reason they could not enter His rest was because of their unbelief. He wants to stress that unbelief will result in death.

The next chapter then makes it clear. He says in Hebrews 4 (beginning in verse 1):

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Again, here the author includes himself ("We which have believed do enter into rest"). It is all about belief and unbelief. Those who do not enter God's rest do not enter due to their unbelief.

Lets examine the clarity of this section before all who read here and see that it is unescapable.

HEBREWS 3

"3 Wherefore, holy brethren,[speaking to all believers who are brothers in Christ and HOLY you seem to avoid this clarity] partakers of the heavenly calling,[to be a "partaker is "a participant, a sharer in" in Greek and only believers are sharers in the heavenly calling in Christ] consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;[The words "our profession", include the writer in this and he says that those he speaks to have Chrst Jesus as their apostle, and High Priest. Again, this is as clear as day to whom he is speaking and he includes himself as well in this]

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, [showing clearly that he is referring to himself and those he writes to here and that they are believers in Christ, there is no way whatsoever that these first few verses where the writer speaks of holy brethren partakers of Christ and of his house hold are not believers] if we hold fast [He says that, he and the other believers that he writes to, must "hold fast", showing there is a need for faith and continual unto the end, the reason he warns them here is that some may turn back and harden their heats and their hearts will become dark and lost and have an evil and unbelief as the context clearly clearly shows] the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.[again this must be done "unto the end", so those who say we cannot fail or fall or have a unbelieving heart and depart from God and all is well now and forever, need to read these exhortations and warnings to believers, and the writer includes himself in the warnings as well, showing that he also must "hold fast" unto the end or else the warnings here are for him as well.]

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.[The writer uses an OT example of this warned how some went away from God and after temptation fell and this was because of hardness and sin and unbelief, this just adds to his previous words as an example]

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, [again speaking to the same HOLY BRETHREN in Christ partakers of the heavenly calling and of Jesus household and that they are "brethren" in Christ] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.[The ones he writes to who were believers in Christ, must take heed and guard there hearts and take heed lest they fall, and in the next verse he says how this can happen with the believers, "through the deceitfulness of sin. But clearly here he says believers can depart from God through unbelief in their heart. he is not saying we depart by works but by unbelief. Again this is so clear to the unbiased reader. A person cannot depart from God unless they are once with him.]

13 But exhort one another daily,[exhort other believers] while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.[If they as believers were already hardened through sin and unbelief he would have said different words. They were in Christ and he warns them of this danger.]

14 For we [again he refers to the ones he writes to and includes himself in the summing up of this whole section. He uses the words "we".] are made partakers of Christ,[again speaking to the holy brethren that were already partakers of Christ and implies the ongoing faith needed to continue in this] if we [again including himself in this exhortation] hold [lay hold of eternal life is another scripture that can go along with this "holding" part, we lay hold by faith, continued faith unto the end] the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;[how long do all believers need to take heed and lay hold and continue in the faith for? until the end]

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.[He then goes back to the OT warning and tells them not to harden their hearts either. This is simply using OT as reinforcement of what he says and as an example]

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.[The rest the believers had is in Christ as he said they were in Christ all through this chapter. But the danger of not being in that rest is to go into works of the flesh and sin and an evil heart of unbelief]

HEBREWS 4

"4 Let us therefore fear,[again he speaks of himself and the other holy brethren he was writing to and says let us "FEAR". Why would there be any fear if you could not depart from God through an d evil heart of unbelief. But he includes himself in this fear and warning] lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[The rest we enter into now is in Christ in our hearts but the final rest is in the new heaven and new Earth, again there is a warning of some not entering in to that rest, and we only remain in that inward rest in Christ as we take heed and guard our hearts and walk in the spirit and sin not etc so that our hearts do not become evil in unbelief and then we would depart from the living God]

Then from vs 2 on till here he uses an OT example and says

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." [This verse shows clearly that the writer is talking to believers including himself of the danger and fear of falling into unbelief. This verse 11 coincides with 3:12 previously, and connects to it. Showing clearly that the writer is speaking of holy brethren including himself taking heed of the danger and fear of falling into unbelief]

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not spinning it. You are. He says "we who believe are entering into the rest." The true believers are entering into the rest. He is writing to a church. Every church body from the beginning has numbered at least some who persisted in unbelief. I have laid out the text and the context, which you continue to ignore. It's not about works. It's about belief.

no you are wrong here read this verse that sums it up

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

showing that he simply uses the OT example for the true believers in Christ he writes to and inculdes himself in the warning of unbelief

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not spinning it. You are. He says "we who believe are entering into the rest." The true believers are entering into the rest. He is writing to a church. Every church body from the beginning has numbered at least some who persisted in unbelief. I have laid out the text and the context, which you continue to ignore. It's not about works. It's about belief.

I never say it is about works, but rather unbelief is how men depart from the living God. The heart gets hard through continual sin and can become an evil heart of unbelief that is that danger for all believers.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not spinning it. You are. He says "we who believe are entering into the rest." The true believers are entering into the rest. He is writing to a church. Every church body from the beginning has numbered at least some who persisted in unbelief. I have laid out the text and the context, which you continue to ignore. It's not about works. It's about belief.

you may want to read this also in Hebrews 10

"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

again the writer includes himself in the warning