Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[Bigmike424]

As you say on your profile also: "He that hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1.6)

One of my many favorite Bible passages! I also absolutely love Romans 5:1-5. When I first got saved I had an incident where I wanted to righteously end a coworkers life. As soon as I got home the Holy Spirit convicted me and I prayed about it, asked GOD to help me to grow as a new Christian and I opened my Bible randomly as GOD took my eyes to this scripture where Paul writes about how we glory intribulations cause it works hope, patience and love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If context is what you want, then you need to understand what was said when it was written. If you want to ignore that and just go by someone's English translation (which one of the many there are), then go ahead with that. But don't keep insisting that we're getting the most accurate understanding of things that way.

First, you have not brought forth any verse in John 21 to support your claims that "phileo" is different in meaning in this particular instance. Context should support you if what you assert is true. But you can't do so because it is just not there in the text. So we can go around and around all day on this, but until you produce a verse that supports your opinion on the word "phileo", it is just that. An opinion, until you prove your case with the Scriptures.

Second, the KJV has been around for hundreds of years before the English Modern Translations came onto the scene. While the Modern Translations can be helpful to update the language in the KJV at times, they should not be our final word of authority because they actually say things many times that attack the faith or God's Word (i.e. the KJV - which was translated from the original languages).

Three, I keep insisting that I get a more accurate understanding of God's Word in my own language because I am familar with English and not Greek. You cannot pull a fast one on me and say that the word "dog" actually means "cat" in English because I grew up speaking and writing English as a part of my culture. You and everybody else on the planet that has lived in the past couple of hundred years has not grown up speaking and writing Biblical Greek. Yet, somehow you magically think you and others are experts in this language when you are merely going off what others think that it says from certain books. As you know, Evolutionists think the Earth is millions of years old and we descended from apes because books told them that information when they were young and dumb. It is time to stop believing in what some book by some guy says and just believe the Word of God in your own language. God is simple and He is not complicated. In fact, if God wanted you to look to the ancient languages such as Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT), then surely there would be evidence of this in His Word to support this viewpoint. But you will not find such a thing. On the contrary, what you will find is evidence in Scripture that God preserved His Word for all generations. For in Acts chapter 2, God had no problem communicating the different languages so that people could understand each other. God did not speak in the Hebrew or Greek and asked them to decipher it or something silly.



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[Bible Highlighter]

Why do you keep trying to convince me or anyone that you're right and everyone else is wrong?

Why? Because we cannot all be right.
Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it.
When Jesus told his disciples to preach two by two, if that house did not receive their message, they were to shake the dust off their feets and move on. In John 6:66, many of the disciples stopped following Jesus because they could not accept what He said. So they once believed in Jesus and then they stopped following Him. According to you, a person is saved if they believe, right? Can a person be saved and stop following Jesus by rejecting His teachings?

You sound pretty arrogant and ignorant.

Thank you for the insult. I will rejoice in God my Savior for that.

I never said nor implied willful sin.

You don't have to. Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) already implies that within it's doctrine for you. For do you not believe all future sins are paid for? Do you not believe that your wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17 says that you will always be in sin?

And why do you keep referring to links you created?

I can only repeat myself so many times. People ask the same things over and over and over again. So instead of trying to say the same thing 10 million different ways, I just refer to what I had written on the Biblical topic elsewhere on the forums. I had provided many verses to support the case for Sinless Perfectionism (Which is in another thread). If you want to be ignorant to what the Bible says, then that is your choice.

Kinda reminds me of like a Jim Jones and the Guyana tragedy. No koolaid for me, thanks anyway!

Well, Jim Jones hated the KJV (i.e. the Bible). He was more of a communist liberal than a fundamentalist Christian. He didn't believe we should take the Bible so seriously. Jim Jones also believed suicide was okay, which is a one way ticket to hell (if one is not brought back to life). A fundamentalist Christian believes in the strict literal interpretation of Scripture. I believe one should interpret the Bible literally unless there are words used to suggest that is a metaphor. I have argued with liberalists before, so I am not one of them. I am also a strong advocate of the KJV and believe it is the divinely inspired preserved Word of God for our day (Which runs contrary to Jim Jones). I believe the Word of God existed perfectly thru out history in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and currently English. I believe in the Trinity (i.e. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost). I believe the Living Word was made flesh by way of a virgin birth. I believe Jesus Christ died upon the cross for man's sins and rose three days later from the grave and that we can be saved right here and right now by asking Jesus to forgive us of our sins and by believing that He died on was risen again on our behalf. But from that point, one is transformed spiritually. From that point they have Jesus living in them if they continue in Christ's good ways. A true Christian will be changed and they will live more and more holy because is it is the proof in the pudding that Christ lives within them. As for suicide: Actually OSAS Proponents have more in common with Jim Jones than I do because I have heard many of them say that suicide does not send a believer to hell. However, I believe suicide is really wrong and will lead to a believer's soul being destroyed (i.e. annihiated) in the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment).

George Sodini is the poster child for Once Saved Always Saved. He strongly believed in it. Yet, he committed mass murder and then suicide. He even had written a suicide note stating that he would be saved despite his evil acts.

George Sodini - Poster Child of OSAS.


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[Bible Highlighter]

In fact, I remember an OSAS Proponent admitted to me (in person) once that they could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and that they would still be saved while doing so. Needless to say I was apalled and made sick to my stomach by such a statement. Now, do all OSAS Proponents believe that way? No. Some of them are more subtle of course. But ultimately they still believe that you can sin on some level and still be saved because OSAS means that no sin can separate you from God. In other words, if there was a law that was past in your state whereby there was no more speed limits on the high ways, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drive fast and there is going to be more traffic deaths and serious injuries on the road. For it is human nature to do the wrong thing. But the good thing for us is that Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This means Jesus can help you to overcome your sin.


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[Geralt]

what is there to explain when the approach you use is to cherry pick verses in different parts of scripture to support an idea. cults and many others do the same approach. this ends up in believing scripture to be in conflict with itself.

simply read Romans, Paul explain it clearly. the righteous are MADE righteous. not of their own. and as such they can still sin but already are righteous at the same time. sinner yet saved. no condemnation.

I agree that we cannot make ourselves righteous. Jesus saves both in Justification (Belief that He is our Savior) and in Sanctification (Allowing Jesus to continue to do the good work thru your life).

As for not understanding the gospel:
I can say the same for you, too. But what would that prove? Truth is determined by the Word of God and you have not been able to explain the many verses I brought forth that condemns the type of gospel that you are teaching.


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[Bible Highlighter]

what is there to explain when the approach you use is to cherry pick verses in different parts of scripture to support an idea. cults and many others do the same approach. this ends up in believing scripture to be in conflict with itself.

simply read Romans, Paul explain it clearly. the righteous are MADE righteous. not of their own. and as such are both sinners and righteous at the same time. sinner yet saved.

I can say that you are cherry picking the verses like a cult, too. But what does that prove? Unless you can explain at least some of verses I put forth, then you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of because you stating opinions rather than Scripture.

Also, I believe a person can be saved right here and right now by asking Jesus to forgive them of their sins and by believing He died and was risen 3 days later on their behalf. While a person can be saved right away without any works, that does not mean Sanctification is not natural part of a believer's faith afterwards. For where we disagree is that God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). For a person can deny Christ by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Meaning, faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

As for Romans:
Paul says,
15 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? "
(Romans 6:15-16).

Paul says,
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

Paul says,
6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-7).

Paul says,
21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:21-22).

In conclusion:

Paul says,
3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

And James says,
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Anyways, my friend. I believe you are confused about Romans because you think Paul was talking about ALL Law when Paul was actually talking about the Law of Moses in reference to the word "law." Just do a keyword search at BlueLetterBible.org for the word "circumcision" and it's related words in the written works by Paul and it will become obvious. For Paul was addressing the heresy of circumcision salvation. Meaning, certain believers in the Roman church thought you had to be circumcised to be initially saved or right with God. This is the context of what Paul is talking about. Paul is not condemning obedience to God's laws. That wouldn't make any sense because Paul himself says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Also, if you not under any Law in regards to salvation: Then are you not under the Command or Law in 1 John 3:23 that commands us to believe in Jesus? Can you have life or salvation by not obeying this Command?


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[Geralt]

play of words. what you are simply saying is that a person can increase his/her chances to be saved right here, right now.

unless sanctification (righteous living) is the result of justification (saved and born anew- changed nature), you will always persist in believing that salvation is conditional to your performance.

1Jn 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

clearly righteous living is the result of one who is born (by God).

I can say that you are cherry picking the verses like a cult, too. But what does that prove? Unless you can explain at least some of verses I put forth, then you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of because you stating opinions rather than Scripture.

Also, I believe a person can be saved right here and right now by asking Jesus to forgive them of their sins and by believing He died and was risen 3 days later on their behalf. While a person can be saved right away without any works, that does not mean Sanctification is not natural part of a believer's faith afterwards. For where we disagree is that God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). For a person can deny Christ by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Meaning, faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

As for Romans:
Paul says,
15 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? "
(Romans 6:15-16).

Paul says,
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

Paul says,
6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-7).

Paul says,
21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:21-22).

In conclusion:

Paul says,
3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

And James says,
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Anyways, my friend. I believe you are confused about Romans because you think Paul was talking about ALL Law when Paul was actually talking about the Law of Moses in reference to the word "law." Just do a keyword search at BlueLetterBible.org for the word "circumcision" and it's related words in the written works by Paul and it will become obvious. For Paul was addressing the heresy of circumcision salvation. Meaning, certain believers in the Roman church thought you had to be circumcised to be initially saved or right with God. This is the context of what Paul is talking about. Paul is not condemning obedience to God's laws. That wouldn't make any sense because Paul himself says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Also, if you not under any Law in regards to salvation: Then are you not under the Command or Law in 1 John 3:23 that commands us to believe in Jesus? Can you have life or salvation by not obeying this Command?


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[Bigmike424]

First, you have not brought forth any verse in John 21 to support your claims that "phileo" is different in meaning in this particular instance. Context should support you if what you assert is true. But you can't do so because it is just not there in the text. So we can go around and around all day on this, but until you produce a verse that supports your opinion on the word "phileo", it is just that. An opinion, until you prove your case with the Scriptures.

Second, the KJV has been around for hundreds of years before the English Modern Translations came onto the scene. While the Modern Translations can be helpful to update the language in the KJV at times, they should not be our final word of authority because they actually say things many times that attack the faith or God's Word (i.e. the KJV - which was translated from the original languages).

Three, I keep insisting that I get a more accurate understanding of God's Word in my own language because I am familar with English and not Greek. You cannot pull a fast one on me and say that the word "dog" actually means "cat" in English because I grew up speaking and writing English as a part of my culture. You and everybody else on the planet that has lived in the past couple of hundred years has not grown up speaking and writing Biblical Greek. Yet, somehow you magically think you and others are experts in this language when you are merely going off what others think that it says from certain books. As you know, Evolutionists think the Earth is millions of years old and we descended from apes because books told them that information when they were young and dumb. It is time to stop believing in what some book by some guy says and just believe the Word of God in your own language. God is simple and He is not complicated. In fact, if God wanted you to look to the ancient languages such as Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT), then surely there would be evidence of this in His Word to support this viewpoint. But you will not find such a thing. On the contrary, what you will find is evidence in Scripture that God preserved His Word for all generations. For in Acts chapter 2, God had no problem communicating the different languages so that people could understand each other. God did not speak in the Hebrew or Greek and asked them to decipher it or something silly.



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Amen bro!!!! I have a brother who is a tenured doctor of inorganic chemistry at a major university that published a paper that disproved the accuracy of carbon dating and challenging this theory that GOD's Earth is millions of years old, and he is a strong Christian man. It was funny because he was challenged all the way to the point of debate over this by atheistic scientists of whom not one would show or commit to the debate. Our GOD is much stronger than any words or ideas we could ever have!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

play of words. what you are simply saying is that a person can increase his/her chances to be saved right here, right now.

unless sanctification (righteous living) is the result of justification (saved and born anew- changed nature), you will always persist in believing that salvation is conditional to your performance.

1Jn 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

clearly righteous living is the result of one who is born (by God).

When I read the Bible I do not get the impression that it even remotely teaches Calvinism or that we do not have free will in regards to our salvation. There are many commands given to us in the New Testament. Commands imply an obligation on our part involving free will. These commands would be useless rubbish if God just forced regenerated us to do what He wanted us to do. Also, Did you not take action of your own choice to ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins by way of prayer and believe that He died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead 3 days later? Or do you think God just zapped you into His Kingdom against your free will choice thereby forcing regenerating you into His Kingdom? If this is the case, then why doesn't God just force save everyone? Why would God want anyone to perish? 2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance. Anyways, we know that there is...

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

As for 1 John 2:29:
So are you walking righteously?
Or would you say that you are also walking unrighteously?
Is there a time you are not loving your brother?
Note: Loving your brother is more than just with words (See James 2:16).

1 John 3:10 says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

1 John 3:15 says,
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Has their ever been a time when a believer has hated their own brother and or stumbled into this particular sin? The Bible says whosever hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

Jesus says,
"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20).

This statement above by our Lord Jesus would not make any sense if Calvinism was true. Jesus is telling us to do something here. He is telling us that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees or we will not enter the kingdom of God. This statement makes little to no sense if God just forced regenerated people to be righteous. Jesus would not need to tell anyone that their righteousness must exceed the scribes and pharisees if everyone was force regenerated to automatically do righteousness so as to enter into the Kingdom.


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[Hillsage]

Do you have verses for this?
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"Counted/ imputed/declared/reckoned righteousness" comes from ‘believing in faith’. Believing FOR the righteousness of God in the OT, and believing FOR the righteousness of Jesus in the NT.

GEN 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

ROM 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

ROM 4:5,6 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. :6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

ROM 4:9 ...we say that (believing) faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


This is a righteousness based upon god’s declaration, and not upon an innocence that we don’t have. He declares us ‘not guilty’ he doesn’t declare us as ‘innocent of never sinning’. Jesus was ‘innocent of never sinning’ and it’s His righteousness imputed to us' by which we are judged by, concerning the eternal consequence of sins.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Counted/ imputed/declared/reckoned righteousness" comes from ‘believing in faith’. Believing FOR the righteousness of God in the OT, and believing FOR the righteousness of Jesus in the NT.

GEN 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

ROM 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

ROM 4:5,6 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. :6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

ROM 4:9 ...we say that (believing) faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


This is a righteousness based upon god’s declaration, and not upon an innocence that we don’t have. He declares us ‘not guilty’ he doesn’t declare us as ‘innocent of never sinning’. Jesus was ‘innocent of never sinning’ and it’s His righteousness imputed to us' by which we are judged by, concerning the eternal consequence of sins.

However, these verses are really not saying what you said before, though.
You said there is:

#1. Imputed Righteousness for the Salvation of the spirit.
#2. Imputed Righteousness for the Salvation of the soul.​

I have a couple of questions:

(a) How do you define a soul according to Scripture?
(b) How do you define a spirit according to Scripture?
(c) How do you define the imputed righteousness for the salvation of the spirit?
(d) How do you define the imputed righteousness for the salvation of the soul?
(e) Where does Scripture help to support your definitions of these things?

I see the soul as your mind, will, and emotions. The soul is the core essence of who you are. It is a reference to beings in general whether they be alive or dead. For Revelation 6:9 says the souls under the alter of God who were slain for the Word of God. These are obviously souls that are no longer alive. The spirit is your body in the spiritual realm. For Paul says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). Granted, just as our physical bodies can experience emotion, our spirits can experience emotion, too. For Mary says her spirit rejoices in God her Savior (Luke 1:47).

As for the verses you brought forth: Are you trying to make a case for Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved?


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[Bible Highlighter]

"Counted/ imputed/declared/reckoned righteousness" comes from ‘believing in faith’. Believing FOR the righteousness of God in the OT, and believing FOR the righteousness of Jesus in the NT.

GEN 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

19 "And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
(Romans 4:19-22).

Therefore,

21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:21-24).

ROM 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus Christ. You have to also believe in everything Jesus taught and commanded of us, as well. Otherwise one is believing in another Jesus that is not described to us in Scripture. If one is not doing what Jesus says, they are not really believing or trusting in Him. For Jesus says, "why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say?" (Luke 6:46).

Anyways, when you read Romans 3:26, you also have to read Romans 6 that says,

15 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:15-16).

ROM 4:5,6 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. :6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

This is talking about Initial or Ultimate Salvation and it is not talking about Sanctification (Which is the next step or phase of salvation). Sanctification is the natural result of Justification. Yes, one is saved without works when they first come to Jesus by faith asking the Lord Jesus to forgive them of their sins and with them believing that Jesus died on the cross and then risen three days later on their behalf. Yes, a person gets clean (or forgiven) from sin by confessing their sins to Jesus (even in their walk with Jesus). This is why we are ultimately saved by God's grace without works. For believers cannot get clean or forgiven of sin by going out and doing a good work. Good works is merely the proof in the pudding that Jesus lives inside a person. This is important because the Scriptures say that Jesus is the source of a person's life (See 1 John 5:12).

ROM 4:9 ...we say that (believing) faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Yet, true faith always leads to righteous actions. Read Hebrews 11.
For the Scriptures say that without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
And a person can deny the Lord by their lack of works (Titus 1:16).
For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).
For Jesus is the author of salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).
For the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).

This is

a righteousness based upon god’s declaration, and not upon an innocence that we don’t have. He declares us ‘not guilty’ he doesn’t declare us as ‘innocent of never sinning’. Jesus was ‘innocent of never sinning’ and it’s His righteousness imputed to us' by which we are judged by, concerning the eternal consequence of sins.

I do not like the wording that you have given here. It can easily mislead a person to think you are teaching Once Saved Always Saved (Which I believe is turning the grace of God into a license for immorality on some level). One is declared righteous only if they act in accordance with God's righteous plan of salvation for their life. This begins by repenting of your sins and believing Jesus died on the cross for your sins and that He had risen three days later on your behalf. This faith in the Lord then continues with obeying the commands of Jesus and His followers. For if a servant did not obey his king, he would be considered disloyal and cast out of his kingdom.


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[Hillsage]

However, these verses are really not saying what you said before, though.
You said there is:

#1. Imputed Righteousness for the Salvation of the spirit.​

All the same kind of righteousness
"Counted/imputed/declared/reckoned righteous"

1TI 3:16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety - God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit,

#2. Imputed Righteousness for the Salvation of the soul.

No, IMPARTED is for soul. By initially believing we receive 100% of the imputed righteousness of Christ needed to GO to heaven. Now we are working to withdraw from the 100% 'imputed righteousness' account of our OSAS spirit, and 'impart' it into our souls, that we might walk in His righteousness here and now. To whatever degree we work out the salvation of our souls. will determine what degree of glorified body we'll receive in the last salvation. Soul salvation here and now is progressively exchanging our carnal 'mind/will/emotions' for the spiritual 'mind of Christ' to follow the 'will of the Father' and display the 'emotions of the Spirit' (love, peace, joy ect).​

I have a couple of questions:

(a) How do you define a soul according to Scripture? I see the soul as your mind, will, and emotions.
(b) How do you define a spirit according to Scripture?
(c) How do you define the imputed righteousness for the salvation of the spirit?
(d) How do you define the imputed righteousness for the salvation of the soul?
(e) Where does Scripture help to support your definitions of these things?

I too define soul, as mind/will/emotion, but I also allow for the OT definition of 'breathing creature'

The soul is the core essence of who you are. It is a reference to beings in general whether they be alive or dead. For Revelation 6:9 says the souls under the alter of God who were slain for the Word of God.

So how can a 'breathing creature' be dead in your POV? In my POV the death Revelation is talking about is those who have "died to self" they have "crucified the flesh" as "overcomers" to become "Jews inwardly" following after their saved "new creation" spirit which, as "joined to the Lord is ONE spirit", as they overcame, they worked out, in the soul "their salvation with fear and trembling". The souls under the altar are those who fulfilled the mandate to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God". It is they who will "also reign with Him" because they "suffer (with Him) they shall also reign with Him".

The fleshly Jews of Israel, though they've suffered greatly, have never suffered with/for Jesus, let alone believed in Him and therefore, Jesus himself declared "the kingdom of God shall be TAKEN FROM YOU, and given to a NATION bringing forth the fruits thereof." We Christians have 'that 'NATION opportunity' to "bring forth the fruits of His kingdom on earth". Becoming kingdom of God was the primary message of Christ, that we might become a "kingdom of kings and priests" qualified with white robes of imparted righteousness to rule with Christ 'seated ON his throne'. The alternative is not overcoming and only having white robes of imputed righteousness, thereby qualified to stand before His throne.

These are obviously souls that are no longer alive. The spirit is your body in the spiritual realm. For Paul says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). Granted, just as our physical bodies can experience emotion, our spirits can experience emotion, too. For Mary says her spirit rejoices in God her Savior (Luke 1:47).

But to me, souls dead to self are alive unto God. And no one has a saved body yet. That verse in Corinthians 15:44 is speaking of the risen 'glorified spiritual bodies' which are part of "a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." It will be a salvation based upon how much you worked toward "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

As for the verses you brought forth: Are you trying to make a case for Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved?

Not necessarily with 'those' verses, though I feel they still imply that, given my understanding as I see things concerning, the three salvations of triune man;

 

[Pastor Jared]

So you saying there are two or more gospels? One Jesus preached and one Paul preached? This is Mid Acts Dispensationalism and it is false.


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That is not Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. While some MAD Theologians do believe it, it is not a defining view. There are much better issues that could be used to illuminate what they teach and believe. Though I agree with your major premise-- there is but one Gospel-- it seems inappropriate to provide a false generalization.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is not Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. While some MAD Theologians do believe it, it is not a defining view. There are much better issues that could be used to illuminate what they teach and believe. Though I agree with your major premise-- there is but one Gospel-- it seems inappropriate to provide a false generalization.

While there may be splinter groups of disagreement (Whereby people want to label themselves with a particular name without any rhyme or reason), I have talked on forums for a long time in regards to MAD. The two or more gospel view is the generally accepted belief in regards to MAD. Just do a Google search on the keywords: "Mid Acts Dispensationalism definition" and this comes up:

"The Grace Movement (Hyper-dispensationalism, Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, ultra-dispensationalism, or more rarely, "Bullingerism" to which 'ultra-dispensationalism' properly applies) is a Protestant doctrine that basically views the teachings of the Apostle Paul both as unique from earlier apostles and as foundational ..."


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[Bible Highlighter]

All the same kind of righteousness
"Counted/imputed/declared/reckoned righteous"

1TI 3:16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety - God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit,

No, IMPARTED is for soul. By initially believing we receive 100% of the imputed righteousness of Christ needed to GO to heaven. Now we are working to withdraw from the 100% 'imputed righteousness' account of our OSAS spirit, and 'impart' it into our souls, that we might walk in His righteousness here and now. To whatever degree we work out the salvation of our souls. will determine what degree of glorified body we'll receive in the last salvation. Soul salvation here and now is progressively exchanging our carnal 'mind/will/emotions' for the spiritual 'mind of Christ' to follow the 'will of the Father' and display the 'emotions of the Spirit' (love, peace, joy ect).​

I too define soul, as mind/will/emotion, but I also allow for the OT definition of 'breathing creature'
So how can a 'breathing creature' be dead in your POV? In my POV the death Revelation is talking about is those who have "died to self" they have "crucified the flesh" as "overcomers" to become "Jews inwardly" following after their saved "new creation" spirit which, as "joined to the Lord is ONE spirit", as they overcame, they worked out, in the soul "their salvation with fear and trembling". The souls under the altar are those who fulfilled the mandate to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God". It is they who will "also reign with Him" because they "suffer (with Him) they shall also reign with Him".

The fleshly Jews of Israel, though they've suffered greatly, have never suffered with/for Jesus, let alone believed in Him and therefore, Jesus himself declared "the kingdom of God shall be TAKEN FROM YOU, and given to a NATION bringing forth the fruits thereof." We Christians have 'that 'NATION opportunity' to "bring forth the fruits of His kingdom on earth". Becoming kingdom of God was the primary message of Christ, that we might become a "kingdom of kings and priests" qualified with white robes of imparted righteousness to rule with Christ 'seated ON his throne'. The alternative is not overcoming and only having white robes of imputed righteousness, thereby qualified to stand before His throne.


But to me, souls dead to self are alive unto God. And no one has a saved body yet. That verse in Corinthians 15:44 is speaking of the risen 'glorified spiritual bodies' which are part of "a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." It will be a salvation based upon how much you worked toward "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

Not necessarily with 'those' verses, though I feel they still imply that, given my understanding as I see things concerning, the three salvations of triune man;

Scripture says God has a soul. So your theory that the soul is something that exists while a being is only alive is simply not true.


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[Pastor Jared]

While there may be splinter groups of disagreement (Whereby people want to label themselves with a particular name without any rhyme or reason), I have talked on forums for a long time in regards to MAD. The two or more gospel view is the generally accepted belief in regards to MAD.


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I can't speak to or deny your experiences on forums. My experience on forums in quite limited. If forum users are what you base your generalizations of a Christian minority on, that is fine. I don't think I would be comfortable doing so. Also, I don't think there are distinctly recognized "splinter groups" within the already small group of MAD adherents. I just know from much of the literature, people, and teachings of the movement that an increasing minority (or perhaps majority) of MAD Christians reject the outdated two gospel notion. And rightly so, I will add.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I can't speak to or deny your experiences on forums. My experience on forums in quite limited. If forum users are what you base your generalizations of a Christian minority on, that is fine. I don't think I would be comfortable doing so. Also, I don't think there are distinctly recognized "splinter groups" within the already small group of MAD adherents. I just know from much of the literature, people, and teachings of the movement that an increasing minority (or perhaps majority) of MAD Christians reject the outdated two gospel notion. And rightly so, I will add.

Just do a Google search on the keywords: "Mid Acts Dispensationalism definition" and this comes up:

"The Grace Movement (Hyper-dispensationalism, Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, ultra-dispensationalism, or more rarely, "Bullingerism" to which 'ultra-dispensationalism' properly applies) is a Protestant doctrine that basically views the teachings of the Apostle Paul both as unique from earlier apostles and as foundational ..."


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[friend of]

Rebuttal to OSAS

Romans 6:14-15

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rebuttal to OSAS

Romans 6:14-15

A collection of my three recent favorites that goes against the OSAS belief are:

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

In other words, the first two pieces of Scripture say that one of the reasons Christ gave Himself for us is to make us holy and without blemish and so as to redeem us from all iniquity (sin). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This would be the works of the devil (sin) within our lives. Then there is my third new favorite. Romans 13:14. It says, "...put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." This is a beautiful verse because it is saying we do not have to fulfill the lusts of the flesh or sin if we put on the Lord Jesus Christ. Many today say you can sin and still be saved. They say that Jesus's sacrifice covers them of all sin and living holy in this life is impossible. Yet, one of the reasons Jesus gave Himself for us was so as to make the church holy and without blemish.



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