Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[LoveofTruth]

These verses are not part of the warning. He says "we are made partakers of Christ..." not "take heed, lest there exist in any of us...." big difference. On the one hand, he is including himself in those who are made partakers of Christ. On the other, he is warning that they must be watchful in case any of them have an unbelieving heart. The verses are there, and they are clear.

Yes he does include himself in the warning and fear of such a thing happening and the unbelief in departing from God in Chapter 4:11

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

 

[nomadictheist]

Lets examine the clarity of this section before all who read here and see that it is unescapable.

HEBREWS 3

"3 Wherefore, holy brethren,[speaking to all believers who are brothers in Christ and HOLY you seem to avoid this clarity] partakers of the heavenly calling,[to be a "partaker is "a participant, a sharer in" in Greek and only believers are sharers in the heavenly calling in Christ] consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;[The words "our profession", include the writer in this and he says that those he speaks to have Chrst Jesus as their apostle, and High Priest. Again, this is as clear as day to whom he is speaking and he includes himself as well in this]

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, [showing clearly that he is referring to himself and those he writes to here and that they are believers in Christ, there is no way whatsoever that these first few verses where the writer speaks of holy brethren partakers of Christ and of his house hold are not believers] if we hold fast [He says that, he and the other believers that he writes to, must "hold fast", showing there is a need for faith and continual unto the end, the reason he warns them here is that some may turn back and harden their heats and their hearts will become dark and lost and have an evil and unbelief as the context clearly clearly shows] the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.[again this must be done "unto the end", so those who say we cannot fail or fall or have a unbelieving heart and depart from God and all is well now and forever, need to read these exhortations and warnings to believers, and the writer includes himself in the warnings as well, showing that he also must "hold fast" unto the end or else the warnings here are for him as well.]

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.[The writer uses an OT example of this warned how some went away from God and after temptation fell and this was because of hardness and sin and unbelief, this just adds to his previous words as an example]

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, [again speaking to the same HOLY BRETHREN in Christ partakers of the heavenly calling and of Jesus household and that they are "brethren" in Christ] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.[The ones he writes to who were believers in Christ, must take heed and guard there hearts and take heed lest they fall, and in the next verse he says how this can happen with the believers, "through the deceitfulness of sin. But clearly here he says believers can depart from God through unbelief in their heart. he is not saying we depart by works but by unbelief. Again this is so clear to the unbiased reader. A person cannot depart from God unless they are once with him.]

I see you feel the need to add your commentary to each verse. I thought we were going to let the Bible speak for itself. That said, I draw your attention to verse 10: "They have not known my ways." In other words, they never knew. They were a part of the generation that God brought out of Egypt, but they never really believed in Him.

Now in verse 12 and the verse following, he gives them instructions. Lest you. Twice, lest any of you.

13 But exhort one another daily,[exhort other believers] while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.[If they as believers were already hardened through sin and unbelief he would have said different words. They were in Christ and he warns them of this danger.]

14 For we [again he refers to the ones he writes to and includes himself in the summing up of this whole section. He uses the words "we".] are made partakers of Christ,[again speaking to the holy brethren that were already partakers of Christ and implies the ongoing faith needed to continue in this] if we [again including himself in this exhortation] hold [lay hold of eternal life is another scripture that can go along with this "holding" part, we lay hold by faith, continued faith unto the end] the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;[how long do all believers need to take heed and lay hold and continue in the faith for? until the end]

Again, your commentary says much more than the verses actually do. But according to your interpretation, we have no part in Christ until the end, so you should have no problem with OSAS because your take on this verse is that it means we are only made partakers in Christ if we hold faith all the way to the end, in which case at no point along the road would we be partakers in Christ. Thus, by your standard (not the Word of God's), it is our work of holding onto our faith that saves us.

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.[He then goes back to the OT warning and tells them not to harden their hearts either. This is simply using OT as reinforcement of what he says and as an example]

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.[The rest the believers had is in Christ as he said they were in Christ all through this chapter. But the danger of not being in that rest is to go into works of the flesh and sin and an evil heart of unbelief]

HEBREWS 4

"4 Let us therefore fear,[again he speaks of himself and the other holy brethren he was writing to and says let us "FEAR". Why would there be any fear if you could not depart from God through an d evil heart of unbelief. But he includes himself in this fear and warning] lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[The rest we enter into now is in Christ in our hearts but the final rest is in the new heaven and new Earth, again there is a warning of some not entering in to that rest, and we only remain in that inward rest in Christ as we take heed and guard our hearts and walk in the spirit and sin not etc so that our hearts do not become evil in unbelief and then we would depart from the living God]

Then from vs 2 on till here he uses an OT example and says

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." [This verse shows clearly that the writer is talking to believers including himself of the danger and fear of falling into unbelief. This verse 11 coincides with 3:12 previously, and connects to it. Showing clearly that the writer is speaking of holy brethren including himself taking heed of the danger and fear of falling into unbelief]

Leaving aside again your explanations, the verses speak plainly. You leave out most verses in Hebrews 4 because Hebrews 4:3 says specifically that whoever believes enters into God's rest. Yet, you think to divide God's rest into two rests because otherwise this verse (and all the others that talk about belief) contradicts what you are trying to claim.

Let's let the Bible speak for itself. No explanations. No inserted quotes. Just the word.

Hebrews 3
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.



Now, when we put this in context with the rest of the Bible, particularly with the sayings of Jesus and the writings of the apostles, we have the clear picture. Belief and unbelief. Either one believes and enters the rest God prepared for Him or one has a heart of unbelief and cannot enter the rest. We must labor to enter the rest because God has put good works before us. Otherwise, how could Jesus say to the thief on the cross 'Today you shall be with Me in paradise.' The thief, having no time to 'prove himself' or 'labor' after his confession, was still saved by believing.

It is dangerous to believe that we can contribute to our salvation. God has already done all the work for salvation, and prepared good works for His children to walk in. We can only believe and follow, with God's Spirit guiding us.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It is dangerous to believe that we can contribute to our salvation. God has already done all the work for salvation, and prepared good works for His children to walk in. We can only believe and follow, with God's Spirit guiding us.

I never say our own works save us. It is of faith and continuing in the faith grounded and settled and when we are not moved away from the hope of the gospel. This can happen if we harden our hearts to Gods leading and work and an evil heart of unbelief separates us from God.

The writer of hebrews is very very clear about this. He simply uses the Ot example as a scriptural reference for them.

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."


That rest in Christ is now and future. But as the rest we are in now by faith , we need to continue in it or we can depart from God through unbelief. Its not a one time thing where you believe and then you can never fall. The writer says he and the other holy brethren can fall through unbelief.

This labour we are in is to sow to the spirit and yield to the Spirit ongoing to reap everlasting life. If we sow to the spirit we shall reap everlasting life. Even though now as all believers are in Christ and he is everlasting life, ( in him is life) we must abide (remain in him through continual faith and holding our confidence steadfast unto the end). This is how we eternally are partakers of Christ. Yes we are now and shall be as we continue in the faith unto the end

 

[nomadictheist]

Yes he does include himself in the warning and fear of such a thing happening and the unbelief in departing from God in Chapter 4:11

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

Yes, he says 'let us fear' and 'let us labor' because as children of God, we should be walking in the works that God has called us to. There's such a thing as 'false faith.' It can come in many forms, but a good example from scripture was Simon the sorcerer. He appeared at first to believe, but it was later revealed that he sought only to gain power through the new form of God's teaching.

Other examples in the modern world abound. I knew one person who, in the course of 5 years, tried 8 different religions, including professing faith in Christ, and last I knew was a practicing Buddhist. Does this mean he fell away? No. It means that his faith was never real in the first place. He was just 'trying it out.'

There are also many people who continue to practice Christianity only because that was the way they were raised. Again, it doesn't mean they fall away from the faith, but rather that it was never truly theirs to begin with.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, he says 'let us fear' and 'let us labor' because as children of God, we should be walking in the works that God has called us to. There's such a thing as 'false faith.' It can come in many forms, but a good example from scripture was Simon the sorcerer. He appeared at first to believe, but it was later revealed that he sought only to gain power through the new form of God's teaching.

Other examples in the modern world abound. I knew one person who, in the course of 5 years, tried 8 different religions, including professing faith in Christ, and last I knew was a practicing Buddhist. Does this mean he fell away? No. It means that his faith was never real in the first place. He was just 'trying it out.'

There are also many people who continue to practice Christianity only because that was the way they were raised. Again, it doesn't mean they fall away from the faith, but rather that it was never truly theirs to begin with.

you seem to forget the writer included himself in this warning and he is a true believer. your entire argument is coming apart at the seems, just believe the scripture.

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

 

[nomadictheist]

I never say our own works save us. It is of faith and continuing in the faith grounded and settled and when we are not moved away from the hope of the gospel. This can happen if we harden our hearts to Gods leading and work and an evil heart of unbelief separates us from God.

The writer of hebrews is very very clear about this. He simply uses the Ot example as a scriptural reference for them.

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."


That rest in Christ is now and future. But as the rest we are in now by faith , we need to continue in it or we can depart from God through unbelief. Its not a one time thing where you believe and then you can never fall. The writer says he and the other holy brethren can fall through unbelief.

This labour we are in is to sow to the spirit and yield to the Spirit ongoing to reap everlasting life. If we sow to the spirit we shall reap everlasting life. Even though now as all believers are in Christ and he is everlasting life, ( in him is life) we must abide (remain in him through continual faith and holding our confidence steadfast unto the end). This is how we eternally are partakers of Christ. Yes we are now and shall be as we continue in the faith unto the end

Alright, since you can't seem to grasp the meaning of this in Hebrews, let's step outside to a greater authority:

From John 6:

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus says it again and again. Whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life. But some - even some of His 'followers' - did not believe. When the authors of the epistles in the NT wrote to churches, they were aware that there would be those in the churches who did not believe, but unlike Jesus, they didn't know beforehand who those with evil hearts of unbelief were.

If you can 'believe' and then 'unbelieve', this would be a lie because people could 'believe' but ultimately not come to everlasting life. This is also why Jesus tells the parable of the weeds. The enemy in the parable sows weeds among the grain, and the master of the fields chooses not to have his servants pull any weeds till the crop is grown because then they might pull some of the good crop by accident. These letters are written this way because the apostles and the writers of these epistles didn't know which were the good crop and which were the weeds, so they challenged everyone to inspect his own work and to challenge his own faith.

 

[nomadictheist]

you seem to forget the writer included himself in this warning and he is a true believer. your entire argument is coming apart at the seems, just believe the scripture.

"11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

No, you seem to forget that he isn't saying that we can have salvation and lose it. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. Believe or don't believe. But remember that the 'heart is deceitfully wicked above all things...' There are many who appear to believe. There are even many who think they believe, but when their faith is tested they reveal that their belief was not actually placed in Jesus but in something else.

If we read this the way you want to, it teaches a doctrine of "salvation by faith plus works." This would place it at odds with the rest of scripture. One of the first rules of Exegesis is that if something seems to be at odds with what the rest of scripture says, you should look to the rest of scripture to help interpret it rightly.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Alright, since you can't seem to grasp the meaning of this in Hebrews, let's step outside to a greater authority:

From John 6:

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus says it again and again. Whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life. But some - even some of His 'followers' - did not believe. When the authors of the epistles in the NT wrote to churches, they were aware that there would be those in the churches who did not believe, but unlike Jesus, they didn't know beforehand who those with evil hearts of unbelief were.

If you can 'believe' and then 'unbelieve', this would be a lie because people could 'believe' but ultimately not come to everlasting life. This is also why Jesus tells the parable of the weeds. The enemy in the parable sows weeds among the grain, and the master of the fields chooses not to have his servants pull any weeds till the crop is grown because then they might pull some of the good crop by accident. These letters are written this way because the apostles and the writers of these epistles didn't know which were the good crop and which were the weeds, so they challenged everyone to inspect his own work and to challenge his own faith.

when your argument from hebrews fails you rush to another section. But thats ok, all scripture is in harmony with what i teach here.

"Eternal life" is Jesus as we read

"1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" (1 John 1:1,2 KJV)

also John wrote

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So if a person as a believer is tempted to sin, a sin of murder. Then he does not have eternal life ( Jesus Christ) abiding (remaining) in him any more.

Eternal life is in Christ as we abide in him.

Jesus also said

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

"

"

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, you seem to forget that he isn't saying that we can have salvation and lose it. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. Believe or don't believe. But remember that the 'heart is deceitfully wicked above all things...' There are many who appear to believe. There are even many who think they believe, but when their faith is tested they reveal that their belief was not actually placed in Jesus but in something else.

If we read this the way you want to, it teaches a doctrine of "salvation by faith plus works." This would place it at odds with the rest of scripture. One of the first rules of Exegesis is that if something seems to be at odds with what the rest of scripture says, you should look to the rest of scripture to help interpret it rightly.

I could go on all day there are hundreds of scriptures that show a person can fall away after being saved and lose salvation. Think of the perfect angels who sinned and will end up in the lake of fire, or Judas who was called a sheep by Jesus and given power at the beginning to cast out devils and raise the dead and sent to the LOST sheep and who fell by transgresson and was blotted out of the book of life and no longer written with the righteous as he was. Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

 

[LoveofTruth]

If we read this the way you want to, it teaches a doctrine of "salvation by faith plus works." This would place it at odds with the rest of scripture. One of the first rules of Exegesis is that if something seems to be at odds with what the rest of scripture says, you should look to the rest of scripture to help interpret it rightly.

no it doesn't, many OSAS have tried to pin that on those who believe as I do but that is not true. i said the only way we are saved is by grace through faith and not of ourselves. It is unbelief that causes men to depart from God. There is no way to try and force me into some doctrine I don't believe. I never said any man is saved by works he does.

 

[nomadictheist]

when your argument from hebrews fails you rush to another section. But thats ok, all scripture is in harmony with what i teach here.

"Eternal life" is Jesus as we read

"1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" (1 John 1:1,2 KJV)

also John wrote

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So if a person as a believer is tempted to sin, a sin of murder. Then he does not have eternal life ( Jesus Christ) abiding (remaining) in him any more.

Eternal life is in Christ as we abide in him.

Jesus also said

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

"

"

You're really stretching here. John says that any man who hates his brother is a murderer, yes. He doesn't say anywhere that this is in the context of being able to lose one's salvation.

So what does it mean for God to take away a branch that doesn't bear fruit? Have you ever stopped in your pursuit of a 'faith + works' doctrine to think that perhaps He means the same thing that James does when he says that many of the people in the church which he writes to are sick and some have even fallen asleep?

Jesus is telling His disciples that anyone who abides in Christ but doesn't bear fruit will die. For lack of a better phrasing, God has no use for branches that don't produce fruit here on earth.

You can see this by the distinction between the branch that is in Christ and doesn't bear fruit (gets taken away), and the man that does not abide in Christ (who is withered and cast into the fire). It's all right there for you to see, if you could only look past the conceit of the sin nature that leads you to believe that you can contribute to your salvation.

 

[nomadictheist]

no it doesn't, many OSAS have tried to pin that on those who believe as I do but that is not true. i said the only way we are saved is by grace through faith and not of ourselves. It is unbelief that causes men to depart from God. There is no way to try and force me into some doctrine I don't believe. I never said any man is saved by works he does.

You say that, but your 'doctrine' says differently. When you say that 'laboring to enter the rest' means that we must work in order to keep our salvation, you make it a 'faith+works.' You frame it in nice little packages by trying to say things like 'falling into unbelief,' but if you look at what you wrote, here it is in its essence:

You can lose your salvation by sinning too much.

You lay it out in the following steps:

1. Become hardened by sin
2. Fall into unbelief.

But what that translates to as you explain the verses is...

1. Not work hard enough to overcome sin
2. Lose salvation

I have shown several times where you can see that those who did not enter the rest had hearts of unbelief to begin with. If salvation is something that you have to work to keep, then there are works involved. If the faith that saves you is not of yourself and is a gift of God, then it cannot fail. God cannot be unfaithful.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You're really stretching here. John says that any man who hates his brother is a murderer, yes. He doesn't say anywhere that this is in the context of being able to lose one's salvation.

So what does it mean for God to take away a branch that doesn't bear fruit? Have you ever stopped in your pursuit of a 'faith + works' doctrine to think that perhaps He means the same thing that James does when he says that many of the people in the church which he writes to are sick and some have even fallen asleep?

Jesus is telling His disciples that anyone who abides in Christ but doesn't bear fruit will die. For lack of a better phrasing, God has no use for branches that don't produce fruit here on earth.

You can see this by the distinction between the branch that is in Christ and doesn't bear fruit (gets taken away), and the man that does not abide in Christ (who is withered and cast into the fire). It's all right there for you to see, if you could only look past the conceit of the sin nature that leads you to believe that you can contribute to your salvation.

You see all things through your rose coloured glasses and not in the spirit and truth of scripture in this matter.

I am not stretching to say that eternal life is Jesus Christ. John says that directly in the text. It just doesn't fit your understanding and you may never have considered that, but it is true. If a believer hates his brother and lets sin in his heart and becomes hardened, then eternal life does not abide (remain) in him. To not have eternal life is not to walk in the life and salvation and you need to repent. King David was a man after God;s own heart and he was quickened by the word of God, then he committed murder and adultery and died and had to be converted again, and asked God to restore unto him the joy of His salvation and not to be cast away.

If a branch in Jesus is abiding in him then Christ is working in him and the fruit he hears is in the spirit as he sows to the spirit. But if he abides not in Christ God does not work in him that way and he is lost.This can happen if believers do not yield to the spirit and instead walk after the flesh.

All works that men do are in God for God works in every believer and makes them perfect unto every good work working in them that which is well pleasing. But continual faith is needed for Christ to dwell in our hearts. If we lose that faith or harden through sin and enter into an evil heart of unbelief we can depart from God and then you are no longer in the vine as a branch bearing fruit.

we read this also

"
Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

 

[nomadictheist]

You see all things through your rose coloured glasses and not in the spirit and truth of scripture in this matter.

I am not stretching to say that eternal life is Jesus Christ. John says that directly in the text. It just doesn't fit your understanding and you may never have considered that, but it is true. If a believer hates his brother and lets sin in his heart and becomes hardened, then eternal life does not abide (remain) in him. To not have eternal life is not to walk in the life and salvation and you need to repent. King David was a man after God;s own heart and he was quickened by the word of God, then he committed murder and adultery and died and had to be converted again, and asked God to restore unto him the joy of His salvation and not to be cast away.

If a branch in Jesus is abiding in him then Christ is working in him and the fruit he hears is in the spirit as he sows to the spirit. But if he abides not in Christ God does not work in him that way and he is lost.This can happen if believers do not yield to the spirit and instead walk after the flesh.

All works that men do are in God for God works in every believer and makes them perfect unto every good work working in them that which is well pleasing. But continual faith is needed for Christ to dwell in our hearts. If we lose that faith or harden through sin and enter into an evil heart of unbelief we can depart from God and then you are no longer in the vine as a branch bearing fruit.

we read this also

"
Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Now you're even twisting my words. I said you were stretching to try to say that the passage about 'hating his brother' has to do with losing salvation. It doesn't. You didn't like it, so you tried to twist it to say I was calling something else a stretch.

Also, people cannot 'die' and be 'converted again.' This is evident from Hebrews as well. In fact, people who hear the word, see the blessings of God and the power of God at work in the church, and then go on to reject Jesus anyway are beyond hope of salvation, according to Hebrews, because they have 'crucified Him again to themselves.' King David had to repent, as does every believer who sins. Repentance restores our relationship with God, just as the prodigal son who returned after running away. These are all your interpretations. David was a man after God's own heart. This is from the Bible. The whole part about dying and needing to be converted again are from you. Just like all the excess commentary you put in verses you post to make sure that people see them from your perspective.

No one who comes to Jesus will be cast out, ever. This is the promise of our Lord, and neither you nor anybody else in the world can change that.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You say that, but your 'doctrine' says differently. When you say that 'laboring to enter the rest' means that we must work in order to keep our salvation, you make it a 'faith+works.' You frame it in nice little packages by trying to say things like 'falling into unbelief,' but if you look at what you wrote, here it is in its essence:

You can lose your salvation by sinning too much.

You lay it out in the following steps:

1. Become hardened by sin
2. Fall into unbelief.

But what that translates to as you explain the verses is...

1. Not work hard enough to overcome sin
2. Lose salvation

I have shown several times where you can see that those who did not enter the rest had hearts of unbelief to begin with. If salvation is something that you have to work to keep, then there are works involved. If the faith that saves you is not of yourself and is a gift of God, then it cannot fail. God cannot be unfaithful.

You are wrong here on many points

1. The faith . Jesus asked them "where is YOUR faith" . God doesn't force any to believe or to continue to believe. That would not be fat, but a form of fatalism, which h is not scriptural.

2. I never said we work of our flesh and labour in the flesh to be saved. But scripture says we are fellow labourers with God. In Christ the new man , the spiritual man can do all things as we are empowered by God and through the Spirit we can mortify the deeds of the body. It is a death to self dying daily not trusting n the flesh at all that the life is manifest. Paul says always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord jesus that the life also might be made manifest in our mortal bodies. We labour for the meat that perishes not, all believers eat Christ flesh and drink his blood to have life in them. The old man is crucified but the new man can DO all things in Christ.

3.the OT entering into the rest related to the land they were to enter into. This land spiritually signified the inward life in the kingdom of God where we enter into rest with Christ. To stay in such a place we must abide ( remain ) in our heart with God through continual faith, (not works of the flesh). If you continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

4.No believer can do flesh works to crucify the flesh. The flesh cannot overcome the flesh. It is in Christ as a new creation that we can crucify the flesh and be risen with Christ.

5. It was the writer of hebrews that says we must not be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. John also in 1 John 2 writes to believers that they sin not . We read verses like I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And every man that hath this hope in himself purifies himself even as he is pure. The list of exhortation to walk in the spirit and overcome through faith the world and the flesh and devil are numerous.

 

[nomadictheist]

You are wrong here on many points

1. The faith . Jesus asked them "where is YOUR faith" . God doesn't force any to believe or to continue to believe. That would not be fat, but a form of fatalism, which h is not scriptural.

2. I never said we work of our flesh and labour in the flesh to be saved. But scripture says we are fellow labourers with God. In Christ the new man , the spiritual man can do all things as we are empowered by God and through the Spirit we can mortify the deeds of the body. It is a death to self dying daily not trusting n the flesh at all that the life is manifest. Paul says always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord jesus that the life also might be made manifest in our mortal bodies. We labour for the meat that perishes not, all believers eat Christ flesh and drink his blood to have life in them. The old man is crucified but the new man can DO all things in Christ.

3.the OT entering into the rest related to the land they were to enter into. This land spiritually signified the inward life in the kingdom of God where we enter into rest with Christ. To stay in such a place we must abide ( remain ) in our heart with God through continual faith, (not works of the flesh). If you continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

4.No believer can do flesh works to crucify the flesh. The flesh cannot overcome the flesh. It is in Christ as a new creation that we can crucify the flesh and be risen with Christ.

5. It was the writer of hebrews that says we must not be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. John also in 1 John 2 writes to believers that they sin not . We read verses like I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And every man that hath this hope in himself purifies himself even as he is pure. The list of exhortation to walk in the spirit and overcome through faith the world and the flesh and devil are numerous.

1. "It is by grace you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves..." I'll let the Bible speak on this. Even our faith is a gift from God.

2. You just strung together a hodgepodge of verses exhorting us to do what believers are supposed to do. Your point is? As I've said before, it is possible for somebody to appear to believe, and even think they believe, without actually ever believing. As Jesus said, there are many who will do things in His name who He never knew.

3. This is, again, your teaching. The author of Hebrews is clear that the problem is an 'evil heart of unbelief.' He even puts it in present tense. He says lest any of you 'have an evil heart of unbelief,' not 'develop an evil heart of unbelief' or 'become unbelievers.'

4. Yes, and as a new creation in Christ we cannot become an old creation again.

5. Yes, the writer of Hebrews says we must not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Do you even know what 'hardened' means? It means 'made firm.' This is a warning that for those who have not believed yet but are 'exploring' the gospel, their current, unbelieving hearts may be 'made firm' by the deceitfulness of sin, and they will be cut off from belief. You are trying to use it in a different manner, saying that 'hardened' means 'changed to the opposite side,' which it does not.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Now you're even twisting my words. I said you were stretching to try to say that the passage about 'hating his brother' has to do with losing salvation. It doesn't.

Yes it is a warning to ANY man (any believer) and anyone who who hates his brother is a murder. In order to not have eternal life abiding in them (or remaining in them) they must have once had eternal life abiding in them. All children who enter into the world are saved by the grace of God and have the true Light lighting them, This Light is Christ the life. They are all alive once without the law ( Romans 7:9 KJV) and then they die when sin revives (their sin nature) and this death is spiritual death. This is when they are condemned , when they hate the light John 3 because their deeds were evil.

You didn't like it, so you tried to twist it to say I was calling something else a stretch.

NO is poke the truth

Also, people cannot 'die' and be 'converted again.' This is evident from Hebrews as well.

Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found"

notice the words alive AGAIN.

and we read,

"2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" ( Gal 3L2)

with

"Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
"

birth again is clear and if a man does not have Christ formed in them they are not belonging to Christ. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his, as scripture says. And to stand in doubt of them, who once received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, shows that a person can believe and then fall from the grace of salvation and Christ shall profit them nothing. Even though they once were saved in Christ.

In fact, people who hear the word, see the blessings of God and the power of God at work in the church, and then go on to reject Jesus anyway are beyond hope of salvation, according to Hebrews,

No they are not. Only as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to open shame and do despite unto the Spirit of grace.

The whole part about dying and needing to be converted again are from you.

The part about David was not from me as scripture shows,

"10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

No one who comes to Jesus will be cast out, ever. This is the promise of our Lord, and neither you nor anybody else in the world can change that.

Jesus himself says some will be cast out if they abide not in him. But if they come to him and believe and continue to believe abiding in him through faith, they won't be cast out. But as I showed in JOHN 15 they are cast forth and burned for not abiding in him. How can a person be cast out for not abiding in him if they never were in him? then they will not be cast out.

Jesus will also spew out of his mouth the Lukewarm believers in Revelation and blot some names out of the book of life in other places who were not overcomes (through faith). Judas was also given to jesus and once belonged to the Father (John 17:6 "6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;" none of them was lost but Judas became lost and betrayed the trust he had. Judas fell by transgression.

 

[LoveofTruth]

1. "It is by grace you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves..." I'll let the Bible speak on this. Even our faith is a gift from God.

That gift is the seed that is sown in the hearts of all men, This is the true Light that eightieth every man, the word of God sown in the heart and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Yet not all believe this word , not all hear the voice, not all walk in that Light. Faith is the substance ( Christ in you) of things hoped for ( Christ in you the hope of glory) the evidence of things not seen ( the seed is sown in mystery in the heart and reflects in our lives as believers walk in the light and in the spirit sowing to the spirit through faith)

2. You just strung together a hodgepodge of verses exhorting us to do what believers are supposed to do. Your point is? As I've said before, it is possible for somebody to appear to believe, and even think they believe, without actually ever believing. As Jesus said, there are many who will do things in His name who He never knew.

You create a red herring here. I am not talking about those who say they believe and don't really. I am only speaking of true believers. And the verse I give may seem to you to be a "hodge lodge" strung together. But they are rightly divided and expose your false doctrine..

Yes I believe the eternal security doctrine that is taught by many , or even the perseverance of the saints doctrine is false and dangerous according to scripture.

I haven't hardly begun to expound the many verses to expose this false eternal security view as taught by many.

3. This is, again, your teaching. The author of Hebrews is clear that the problem is an 'evil heart of unbelief.' He even puts it in present tense. He says lest any of you 'have an evil heart of unbelief,' not 'develop an evil heart of unbelief' or 'become unbelievers.'

chapter 4:11 read it again, he ties in all the words to other believers and includes himself in the warning. I believe It is very clear to the unbiased reader.

4. Yes, and as a new creation in Christ we cannot become an old creation again.

You have the old and new man as long as you are alive. The old man has to be crucified. Only as believers yield to the Spirit can the flesh be mortified. if they yield to the flesh they shall die. as paul said.

Paul warned believers, and i would echo his warning here

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." ( 1 Cor 6:9,10 KJV)

Here we see clearly that if any are in such sins , they are in unbelief and in danger . Yes he says and such were some of you. But there were some of them who fell into sin 1 Cor 5 and other places. But he warns all believers and every man, he says "if any man) that includes all believers as well. They are deceived if they think they will inherit the kingdom of God. They get deceived by false eternal security doctrines also and think that as they are in the flesh that they can still please God

5. Yes, the writer of Hebrews says we must not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Do you even know what 'hardened' means? It means 'made firm.' This is a warning that for those who have not believed yet but are 'exploring' the gospel, their current, unbelieving hearts may be 'made firm' by the deceitfulness of sin, and they will be cut off from belief. You are trying to use it in a different manner, saying that 'hardened' means 'changed to the opposite side,' which it does not.

you twist the scriptures here and add your words , you say "This is a warning that for those who have not believed yet but are 'exploring' the gospel, their current, unbelieving hearts may be 'made firm' by the deceitfulness of sin,"

No, he is speaking to holy brethren in Christ as the context CLEARLY CLEARLY says. I know that for you to admit this your entire superstructure and doctrine will crumble to the fund so you hold onto it closely. But take heed.

I ask you a question.

If you commit sin are you still of God? Yes or no, yeah or nay whatsoever is more than this cometh evil.

a simple yes or no

then we can discuss it

 

[user385]

Read Hebrews 2:9. We see that Jesus has tasted death for every man. A believer in Jesus Christ cannot spiritually die. A believer is a new creation. They have been born again. They have eternal life.
Read Hebrews 3:18-19. We see that those who could not enter into God's rest could not enter His rest because of unbelief. The unbelief referred to is the choice to not believe on Jesus Christ. Once someone has been born again it is impossible for them to ever have that type of unbelief.
There is a reason why rest is called rest.
Read Hebrews 4:3. We see that those who believe do enter into rest. The works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Read Hebrews 4:10. We see that he that has entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God from His. The type of works being referred to is anything a man tries to do or to not do in order to receive or keep eternal life. A man cannot lose eternal life.
Read Hebrews 4:12-13. One thing these verses seem to make clear is that God knows every thought of a man and He knows what is in a man's heart.
Read Hebrews 9:25-28.
Read Hebrews 10:11-18. Notice that by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Read Hebrews 10:12. We see that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for ever.
Read Hebrews 12:29. We see that God is a consuming fire.
Men were born separated from God.
Read Isaiah 64:6. We see that we are all as an unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
God requires that anyone who wants to be in heaven with Him for eternity be completely, absolutely, perfectly righteous. A man cannot make himself perfectly righteous by his own works. Only God can make a man righteous. A man cannot lose eternal life. There is only one thing a man can do to receive eternal life, that thing is to believe on Jesus Christ.

To believe on Jesus Christ a person must believe that the payment for their sins was made through the shed blood and death of Jesus Christ on the cross, through the burial of Jesus Christ, and through the physical and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In John 6:29 we are told that the work of God is to believe on Jesus Christ. The fact that Jesus only talked about one thing a person must do to receive eternal life makes it clear there is only one thing a person must do to receive eternal life. Read John 3:15-18, John 3:36 and Acts 16:31.

 

[nomadictheist]

That gift is the seed that is sown in the hearts of all men, This is the true Light that eightieth every man, the word of God sown in the heart and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Yet not all believe this word , not all hear the voice, not all walk in that Light. Faith is the substance ( Christ in you) of things hoped for ( Christ in you the hope of glory) the evidence of things not seen ( the seed is sown in mystery in the heart and reflects in our lives as believers walk in the light and in the spirit sowing to the spirit through faith)



You create a red herring here. I am not talking about those who say they believe and don't really. I am only speaking of true believers. And the verse I give may seem to you to be a "hodge lodge" strung together. But they are rightly divided and expose your false doctrine..

Yes I believe the eternal security doctrine that is taught by many , or even the perseverance of the saints doctrine is false and dangerous according to scripture.

I haven't hardly begun to expound the many verses to expose this false eternal security view as taught by many.



chapter 4:11 read it again, he ties in all the words to other believers and includes himself in the warning. I believe It is very clear to the unbiased reader.



You have the old and new man as long as you are alive. The old man has to be crucified. Only as believers yield to the Spirit can the flesh be mortified. if they yield to the flesh they shall die. as paul said.

Paul warned believers, and i would echo his warning here

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." ( 1 Cor 6:9,10 KJV)

Here we see clearly that if any are in such sins , they are in unbelief and in danger . Yes he says and such were some of you. But there were some of them who fell into sin 1 Cor 5 and other places. But he warns all believers and every man, he says "if any man) that includes all believers as well. They are deceived if they think they will inherit the kingdom of God. They get deceived by false eternal security doctrines also and think that as they are in the flesh that they can still please God



you twist the scriptures here and add your words , you say "This is a warning that for those who have not believed yet but are 'exploring' the gospel, their current, unbelieving hearts may be 'made firm' by the deceitfulness of sin,"

No, he is speaking to holy brethren in Christ as the context CLEARLY CLEARLY says. I know that for you to admit this your entire superstructure and doctrine will crumble to the fund so you hold onto it closely. But take heed.

I ask you a question.

If you commit sin are you still of God? Yes or no, yeah or nay whatsoever is more than this cometh evil.

a simple yes or no

then we can discuss it

I really don't have time to answer multiple posts all the time, so I will only address the most recent ones.

First the answer to your question, from scripture: "If we say we have no sin, we make ourselves liars and the truth is not in us." Yes, as children of God we still continue to commit sins until the day we cast off the corruption of this world and are given new, incorruptible bodies.

Second, your false statement that the epistles are written only to the 'holy brethren' in Christ. He is writing to the church.

I refer you again to the word 'hardened', for which you have no reasonable explanation. The word hardened means 'made firm.' A heart can not be 'made firm by the deceitfulness of sin' unless it is already inclined toward sin. If the heart were godly, then it would be made firm in godliness.

You always stop before the conclusion. I wonder why that would be? Here is the conclusion of chapter 4:

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So all of this is to say don't be afraid to come to God and confess your sin, seeking to obtain mercy from Him.

The evidence of what he is speaking of is in the beginning of chapter six. He says:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

In other words, in the first 5 chapters he has discussed the elementary doctrine of what it means to be a Christian - to believe in Christ, who is higher than the angels, higher than Moses, and higher than any other save the Father Himself. Those who believe will be resurrected. Those who persist in unbelief will suffer eternal judgment. He then goes on

And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Note the highlighted sections above, which show that your own doctrine is self-contradictory. You say that those who 'fall away' must be saved again, but the writer of Hebrews, from which you draw most of your support, contradicts you and says that those who were once enlightened and fall away cannot be saved again.

These verses in themselves are packed with doctrine that can be difficult, which is why the Bible must be read as a whole and not just in pieces. If you pick a specific verse or passage to start from and let that color the interpretation of the rest of scripture, you can justify almost any position. So here I will draw attention to a few verses, remembering the promise of Christ that nobody who comes to Him will be sent away and that He will not lose a single one of those whom the Father has given him.

First, note that the verse speaks of those who were once 'enlightened.' The authors of the epistles are very familiar with the word 'saved,' 'redeemed,' etc., and the author of Hebrews would not hesitate to use that word if this were what it meant. Instead, he carefully uses the word 'enlightened.' He also says that they 'tasted of the heavenly gift.' Finally, that they were 'made partakers' of the Holy Ghost.

So why doesn't he say 'saved?' He clarifies that in the next verses, showing us what he means...

For the earth that drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.

In other words, he is comparing the blessing of the Holy Spirit to rain that falls upon the earth. The earth, then, is the people he is speaking of (an analogy, of course). But some of that rain bears 'thorns and briers', and the end of that is to be burned.

So how would one be 'made a partaker of the Holy Ghost' and 'taste of the heavenly gift' without having salvation? By being a part of the church of God. When God pours out His Spirit on His church, everyone in the church, not only the faithful, are blessed as a result. In the holy brethren, this blessing produces 'herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed.' In those who have evil, unbelieving hearts, it produces 'briers and thorns.'

But then notice verse 9. We are persuaded of better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.

So the better things 'accompany' salvation. They don't 'produce' or 'ensure' it.