Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[ToBeLoved]

Hermas, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Eusebius of Caesarea and others bluntly articulated a special importance for the bishop of Rome. Where do you suppose they got that idea?

I don't think any man speaks for God on earth. Jesus said that we are all sinners. All imperfect people who are all saved by the grace of God. The traditions of man are not the words of God. God does not put imperfect people in His stead. He is God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It was not a false belief system, it is the first step in the right belief system...

You believe Jesus was trying to get the rich young ruler to see that he could not keep the Law under any circumstance. This is something Jesus never said.

On the contrary. Jesus said the exact opposite. Let me repeat to you what the rich young ruler and Jesus said so it sinks in.

The Rich Young Ruler said,
“...what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And Jesus said,
"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
(Matthew 19:16-17).

So was Jesus lying when He said we have to keep the Commandments in reply to the rich young ruler's question on what good thing he must do to have eternal life? Was Jesus correct when He said we have to keep the Commandments as a reply to what must we do to have eternal life?
Yes, or no?
‭‭

Really? Jesus did not say to the man to sell all he had and follow after him? I think he did...

No. I was referring to the other parts you said that is not specifically stated within Scripture. Do you want me to quote all of what you said?

Which proved to the man that he was not keeping the law and was lying, he had money as an idol, and he was lying about it or bearing false witness...

It is true that the the rich ruler was putting his money before God because he was not willing to give those riches up to follow Jesus. But there is nothing about him lying, though. That would be something you are adding to Scripture that is not there.

None of us is or can be perfect

So then Jesus lied when He told us to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect?

What about when God said for us to be ye Holy as He is holy?

Did not Jesus say to the rich man, if you want to be perfect, sell all that you have and give it to the poor? (Matthew 19:21).

Did not Peter say to Jesus the following words?
"Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? " (Matthew 19:27).

Did not Jesus conclude this matter in Matthew 19 with the following words?
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29).

I mean, honestly. How does the above words of Jesus even make sense in your view. The short answer is that they don't make sense.

None of us is or can perfectly keep the law, no reason though not to have it as aim, target, or goal though... Those who think they can or are are liars...

Actually, you have things backwards. The Bible says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15).
Do you love Jesus?
Is it possible to love Jesus by keeping His commandments?
Jesus seems to think so because He says,

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." (John 14:21).

23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."
(John 14:23-24).

Jesus wanted to eliminate money as and idol or god in the man's heart...

Jesus would have worked with the man more and further and in greater detail if he had not gone away from him...

Was it just about the rich ruler making money into an idol or was the problem in him being rich?
Did not Jesus say it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Do you think this rich ruler could have been rich and still follow Jesus?

The law is a first step, and the point of it at first is for us to admit we have and do fall short of keeping it,

So Jesus was deceiving the rich ruler? He was giving him a false answer? Eternal life is not thru keeping the commandments? If the point was not about keeping the Law, then why did Jesus care about this rich ruler in making an idol out of his money? Is not making an idol out of you riches against God's law? If the point was to show that the rich ruler could not keep God's laws (such as not giving up one's riches), then Jesus would not have let the rich man go. He would have told him to just believe in Him. If what you say is true, then Jesus would not have also concluded with the words He did in verse 29, too.

then we go though a "process", notice I said it is a process and does not happen overnight, if it happens in full at all, we go through or enter into a lifelong process of trying to attain to the laws standard, with God's help, and not without it, which is another point of it, that we cannot do it on our own, or through self-effort alone, we "need" God, and his assistance and help in our lives...

Okay. Now you are saying we can keep God's laws?
Yes, I agree we can keep God's laws and I agree that it is only with God working thru us can such a thing be possible.

God Bless!

May the Lord's love shine upon you.
And may you please be well.


...

 

[truefiction1]

By trying or exerting self-effort, or any kind of effort in "trying" to keep the commandments, by observing the commandments, you will fail miserably...

Yes, that is exactly why one must try, otherwise one cannot fail. For it is through the failure that one begins to realize the depths of ones depravity, and through this realization (revealed by the Holy Spirit) one is prepared to receive the gift of true poverty of spirit ("Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"). Without poverty of spirit, one is accursed.

You must observe Christ by faith, not the letter of the law(s)...

It is not the letter of the law that is the concern of God, but our repentance that He desires ("The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit. A broken and contrite heart, O God, Thou will not despise. Do good, O Lord, in Thy good pleasure. Rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Then wilt Thou delight in right sacrifices: in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings. Then bulls will be offered upon Thine altar.")... elsewhere, ("I desire mercy and not sacrifice").

Keeping the commandments must be a "fruit" of faith, true, right Belief, and a truly converted person... A fruit not a work. )...

The repentance is only true and effective if it brings forth the fruit. If a branch does not bear fruit, it is good for nothing but to be cut off and thrown into the fire: "He then said to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don't start saying to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones! Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." "What then should we do?" the crowds were asking him. He replied to them, "The one who has two shirts must share with someone who has none, and the one who has food must do the same." Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they asked him, "Teacher, what should we do?" He told them, "Don't collect any more than what you have been authorized Some soldiers also questioned him: "What should we do?" He said to them, "Don't take money from anyone by force or false accusation; be satisfied with your wages." [The Baptist is giving his listeners instructions as to how they are to behave as penitents: aka, keeping God's commandments].

Not by a work of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, or in faith of the law being a "fruit" of perfected faith... Not a work, not by effort, but a fruit of right believing, are those who have the fruit of keeping the commandments, by right believing and a, in short, "perfect(ed) faith"

Right believing Lives and grows with repentance, but withers and dies without it. Repentance is a free act of human volition (choice) in response to the Word of God. That freedom either to continue in repentance of sin and communion with God, or to turn back to sin and thus, sever communion with God, remains until death, after which it is too late to repent any more.

Fulfillment of the law comes by the law of faith or right believing, and by that faith, fulfills it as a fruit, and not by a work...

Those ones are known by the Lord and they know him...

God Bless!

Yet how many are deceived by thinking they are saved because they lie to themselves that they have the faith of Abraham, but are only deceived because they have not the repentance of Abraham, but rather, the pride and conceit of Satan?: "And don't start saying to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father (i.e. we are justified by our belief)' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones! Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Unless we fight to continue through the narrow gate of repentance, any good fruit we may produce (especially "right belief") will eventually wither and die (probably because it gets replaced with pride). This is the will of Satan and his demons. We are in a spiritual war against them that if we lose, will result in our being thrown into the fire along with them when the Son of Man returns to judge all. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."(Ephesians 6:12) "Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8) "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, that is exactly why one must try, otherwise one cannot fail. For it is through the failure that one begins to realize the depths of ones depravity, and through this realization (revealed by the Holy Spirit) one is prepared to receive the gift of true poverty of spirit ("Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"). Without poverty of spirit, one is accursed.



It is not the letter of the law that is the concern of God, but our repentance that He desires ("The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit. A broken and contrite heart, O God, Thou will not despise. Do good, O Lord, in Thy good pleasure. Rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Then wilt Thou delight in right sacrifices: in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings. Then bulls will be offered upon Thine altar.")... elsewhere, ("I desire mercy and not sacrifice").

The repentance is only true and effective if it brings forth the fruit. If a branch does not bear fruit, it is good for nothing but to be cut off and thrown into the fire: "He then said to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don't start saying to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones! Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." "What then should we do?" the crowds were asking him. He replied to them, "The one who has two shirts must share with someone who has none, and the one who has food must do the same." Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they asked him, "Teacher, what should we do?" He told them, "Don't collect any more than what you have been authorized Some soldiers also questioned him: "What should we do?" He said to them, "Don't take money from anyone by force or false accusation; be satisfied with your wages." [The Baptist is giving his listeners instructions as to how they are to behave as penitents: aka, keeping God's commandments].

Right believing Lives and grows with repentance, but withers and dies without it. Repentance is a free act of human volition (choice) in response to the Word of God. That freedom either to continue in repentance of sin and communion with God, or to turn back to sin and thus, sever communion with God, remains until death, after which it is too late to repent any more.



Yet how many are deceived by thinking they are saved because they lie to themselves that they have the faith of Abraham, but are only deceived because they have not the repentance of Abraham, but rather, the pride and conceit of Satan?: "And don't start saying to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father (i.e. we are justified by our belief)' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones! Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Unless we fight to continue through the narrow gate of repentance, any good fruit we may produce (especially "right belief") will eventually wither and die (probably because it gets replaced with pride). This is the will of Satan and his demons. We are in a spiritual war against them that if we lose, will result in our being thrown into the fire along with them when the Son of Man returns to judge all. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."(Ephesians 6:12) "Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8) "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)

I'm on the other side of repentance right now, and I feel like I have passed though that narrow gate, that kept getting narrower and more cramped and confining till I actually repented of all the Lord was asking and someone was pressuring me to repent of... Notice I say "everything he personally asked, or put pressure ON ME PERSONALLY to repent of", this included open confession as well, of things, I did not and was not going to speak of, but, I finally did, and when I did, and repented, I felt like the pressure got less, like I passed through that gate, and things started and are getting easier now with time and enjoying now, my relationship with him...

He did not ask complete perfection out of me, but what he did ask of me, I obeyed, and I'm soo, sooo glad I did now...

He may require more of me in the future, if he does, this time, I plan on obeying, immediately this time...

Oh, as I progress, I notice that as my faith is getting better and stronger and my relationship with him grows I am finding it much easier to not make as many mistakes, and am doing much better (not perfect yet) but doing much better with the law as I go...

God Bless!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, that is exactly why one must try, otherwise one cannot fail. For it is through the failure that one begins to realize the depths of ones depravity, and through this realization (revealed by the Holy Spirit) one is prepared to receive the gift of true poverty of spirit ("Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"). Without poverty of spirit, one is accursed.



It is not the letter of the law that is the concern of God, but our repentance that He desires ("The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit. A broken and contrite heart, O God, Thou will not despise. Do good, O Lord, in Thy good pleasure. Rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Then wilt Thou delight in right sacrifices: in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings. Then bulls will be offered upon Thine altar.")... elsewhere, ("I desire mercy and not sacrifice").

The repentance is only true and effective if it brings forth the fruit. If a branch does not bear fruit, it is good for nothing but to be cut off and thrown into the fire: "He then said to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don't start saying to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones! Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." "What then should we do?" the crowds were asking him. He replied to them, "The one who has two shirts must share with someone who has none, and the one who has food must do the same." Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they asked him, "Teacher, what should we do?" He told them, "Don't collect any more than what you have been authorized Some soldiers also questioned him: "What should we do?" He said to them, "Don't take money from anyone by force or false accusation; be satisfied with your wages." [The Baptist is giving his listeners instructions as to how they are to behave as penitents: aka, keeping God's commandments].

Right believing Lives and grows with repentance, but withers and dies without it. Repentance is a free act of human volition (choice) in response to the Word of God. That freedom either to continue in repentance of sin and communion with God, or to turn back to sin and thus, sever communion with God, remains until death, after which it is too late to repent any more.



Yet how many are deceived by thinking they are saved because they lie to themselves that they have the faith of Abraham, but are only deceived because they have not the repentance of Abraham, but rather, the pride and conceit of Satan?: "And don't start saying to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father (i.e. we are justified by our belief)' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones! Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Unless we fight to continue through the narrow gate of repentance, any good fruit we may produce (especially "right belief") will eventually wither and die (probably because it gets replaced with pride). This is the will of Satan and his demons. We are in a spiritual war against them that if we lose, will result in our being thrown into the fire along with them when the Son of Man returns to judge all. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."(Ephesians 6:12) "Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8) "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)

And how quickly a good heart can turn bad if we don't watch ourselves carefully. When we start thinking we are much better people than we really are, decieving ourselves that we are something that we are not. That can happen fairly quickly without repentance.

Reminds me of the verse about the heart.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it".

We start telling ourselves things and can start to believe what we tell ourselves pretty quickly if we are not careful. Is that what you are talking about?

 

[truefiction1]

I'm on the other side of repentance right now, and I feel like I have passed though that narrow gate, that kept getting narrower and more cramped and confining till I actually repented of all the Lord was asking and someone was pressuring me to repent of... Notice I say "everything he personally asked, or put pressure ON ME PERSONALLY to repent of", this included open confession as well, of things, I did not and was not going to speak of, but, I finally did, and when I did, and repented, I felt like the pressure got less, like I passed through that gate, and things started and are getting easier now with time and enjoying now, my relationship with him...

He did not ask complete perfection out of me, but what he did ask of me, I obeyed, and I'm soo, sooo glad I did now...

He may require more of me in the future, if he does, this time, I plan on obeying, immediately this time...

Oh, as I progress, I notice that as my faith is getting better and stronger and my relationship with him grows I am finding it much easier to not make as many mistakes, and am doing much better (not perfect yet) but doing much better with the law as I go...

God Bless!

The nature of the struggle changes, from what we have been lead to understand by spiritual teachers who have become strongly anchored in faith, by grace. In ways it becomes easier, (or light: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.") They also maintain, however, that the enemies of our salvation never give up, just change tactics according to how far along one has progressed into True knowledge of God.

 

[Neogaia777]

You believe Jesus was trying to get the rich young ruler to see that he could not keep the Law under any circumstance. This is something Jesus never said.

On the contrary. Jesus said the exact opposite. Let me repeat to you what the rich young ruler and Jesus said so it sinks in.

The Rich Young Ruler said,
“...what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And Jesus said,
"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
(Matthew 19:16-17).

So was Jesus lying when He said we have to keep the Commandments in reply to the rich young ruler's question on what good thing he must do to have eternal life? Was Jesus correct when He said we have to keep the Commandments as a reply to what must we do to have eternal life?
Yes, or no?
‭‭


No. I was referring to the other parts you said that is not specifically stated within Scripture. Do you want me to quote all of what you said?



It is true that the the rich ruler was putting his money before God because he was not willing to give those riches up to follow Jesus. But there is nothing about him lying, though. That would be something you are adding to Scripture that is not there.



So then Jesus lied when He told us to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect?

What about when God said for us to be ye Holy as He is holy?

Did not Jesus say to the rich man, if you want to be perfect, sell all that you have and give it to the poor? (Matthew 19:21).

Did not Peter say to Jesus the following words?
"Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? " (Matthew 19:27).

Did not Jesus conclude this matter in Matthew 19 with the following words?
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29).

I mean, honestly. How does the above words of Jesus even make sense in your view. The short answer is that they don't make sense.



Actually, you have things backwards. The Bible says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15).
Do you love Jesus?
Is it possible to love Jesus by keeping His commandments?
Jesus seems to think so because He says,

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." (John 14:21).

23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."
(John 14:23-24).



Was it just about the rich ruler making money into an idol or was the problem in him being rich?
Did not Jesus say it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Do you think this rich ruler could have been rich and still follow Jesus?



So Jesus was deceiving the rich ruler? He was giving him a false answer? Eternal life is not thru keeping the commandments? If the point was not about keeping the Law, then why did Jesus care about this rich ruler in making an idol out of his money? Is not making an idol out of you riches against God's law? If the point was to show that the rich ruler could not keep God's laws (such as not giving up one's riches), then Jesus would not have let the rich man go. He would have told him to just believe in Him. If what you say is true, then Jesus would not have also concluded with the words He did in verse 29, too.



Okay. Now you are saying we can keep God's laws?
Yes, I agree we can keep God's laws and I agree that it is only with God working thru us can such a thing be possible.



May the Lord's love shine upon you.
And may you please be well.


...

All right, I think your just out to make a stir, so, I'm going to keep this as short as possible,

Not that the rich young ruler could never eventually attain to keeping the law, but that he was not currently, in this he was lying, though not aware of it until Jesus told him to give up his money...

Jesus was working within his framework of where he was currently at in his walk, which was that by "trying" through "self-effort" to keep the commandments would get him in, this is a first step in our walk that is not till we fall on our face with it, God reveals the next steps to take, not until then...

This explains it best: About the law and keeping the commandments...

Works... Performance based salvation and Faith based salvation...

If a man love me he will keep my words about the New Covenant that is superior to the law, and that is of faith, which is superior to the law, again see link above...

I'm curious, in all of this, I'd like to ask you then, How you suggest we should go about keeping the commandments and how to do it successfully? (and I'd appreciate an answer to at least this, if you could, please)

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The nature of the struggle changes, from what we have been lead to understand by spiritual teachers who have become strongly anchored in faith, by grace. In ways it becomes easier, (or light: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.") They also maintain, however, that the enemies of our salvation never give up, just change tactics according to how far along one has progressed into True knowledge of God.

I think I've been trying to get him to run out of ammo with me (the enemy(ies)) And most of his tricks are getting pretty old for now as there the same ones over and over (that used to scare the hell out of me and caused me all kinds of problems) But, after a while, you get used to it and it becomes very old, it seems like the same old bag of tricks or tactics after a while... And, I'm getting used to responding to them and saying things like, "really... This again... You've got to be kidding me, this is getting really old, not going to work now, go away!" And, like I said or like I'm going to say, it's only because God is with me and on my side that I am able to do this (now)...

God Bless!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think I've been trying to get him to run out of ammo with me (the enemy(ies)) And most of his tricks are getting pretty old for now as there the same ones over and over (that used to scare the hell out of me and caused me all kinds of problems) But, after a while, you get used to it and it becomes very old, it seems like the same old bag of tricks or tactics after a while... And, I'm getting used to responding to them and saying things like, "really... This again... You've got to be kidding me, this is getting really old, not going to work now, go away!" And, like I said or like I'm going to say, it's only because God is with me and on my side that I am able to do this (now)...

God Bless!

I also think we have the experience of the last time we went through it we have that success under our belt, so to speak and we don't need to contemplate the answers again really, if we questioned anything, we just know what we need to do to kick it in the butt and move on. Once you kind of are able to overcome something then you remember that you overcame it and remember how you did it.

And then the next time you really don't have to remember how you did it because you see it coming before it actually get's to be a problem. And you become more aware of it coming and see it sooner coming.

 

[Neogaia777]

I also think we have the experience of the last time we went through it we have that success under our belt, so to speak and we don't need to contemplate the answers again really, if we questioned anything, we just know what we need to do to kick it in the butt and move on. Once you kind of are able to overcome something then you remember that you overcame it and remember how you did it.

And then the next time you really don't have to remember how you did it because you see it coming before it actually get's to be a problem. And you become more aware of it coming and see it sooner coming.

Maybe that's why the Bible tells us "He who endures to the end...? (will be saved) (it will get easier, maybe?)...

Thanks for the reply,

God Bless!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Maybe that's why the Bible tells us "He who endures to the end...? (will be saved) (it will get easier, maybe?)...

Thanks for the reply,

God Bless!

I don't know. What I think is that it all starts with really loving God. Period.

Because otherwise you are trying, trying, trying but the motivation is only there not to go to hell, which becomes a burden so to speak if you do not love God.

If you love God, then pleasing Him comes along with love and it is not a burden that you are trying, trying, trying at anymore just for the reason of not going to hell (although that is a good reason, for sure).

I think the hard part to get past, at least for me was to love God enough that I wasn't always trying so hard, but doing it kind of like normal.

It was the heart or motivation behind what I was doing. Once I could not live without God, I knew I in my heart did not have a choice because I could not live my life without God and rebell. So once I knew that I was with God for the long haul, then I just said "ok God, we are doing this!".

Now, I couldn't leave God if I tried. If I would be in sin I would be miserable because I would not feel right with God so I know that I have to do the right thing for me in a way because I cannot not be with God. I know that sounds odd, but if I tried to be someone else like a massive sinner I could not be happy. I would not enjoy sinning because I would not be doing what I want to do because I would feel so out of step with who i am, kindof like I am not me without Him.

Once you accept that you cannot sin because you dont want to or cannot be without God then the path is really clear and you just go, because you cannot, not go. If that makes sense.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't know. What I think is that it all starts with really loving God. Period.

Because otherwise you are trying, trying, trying but the motivation is only there not to go to hell, which becomes a burden so to speak if you do not love God.

If you love God, then pleasing Him comes along with love and it is not a burden that you are trying, trying, trying at anymore just for the reason of not going to hell (although that is a good reason, for sure).

I think the hard part to get past, at least for me was to love God enough that I wasn't always trying so hard, but doing it kind of like normal.

It was the heart or motivation behind what I was doing. Once I could not live without God, I knew I in my heart did not have a choice because I could not live my life without God and rebell. So once I knew that I was with God for the long haul, then I just said "ok God, we are doing this!".

Now, I couldn't leave God if I tried. If I would be in sin I would be miserable because I would not feel right with God so I know that I have to do the right thing for me in a way because I cannot not be with God. I know that sounds odd, but if I tried to be someone else like a massive sinner I could not be happy. I would not enjoy sinning because I would not be doing what I want to do because I would feel so out of step with who i am, kindof like I am not me without Him.

Once you accept that you cannot sin because you dont want to or cannot be without God then the path is really clear and you just go, because you cannot, not go. If that makes sense.

Yes, it does... And I do think I had to go through what I went through to be able to arrive at a point to where I love God now, like or in the way in which you describe... Does seem to make a notable difference when that kind of love for him becomes really "real"..

God Bless!

 

[bcbsr]

The Lord does give commandments, and teaches that only those persons who keep them are known by God. These verses posted above don't contradict the Lord's teaching that we must keep His commandments if we are to receive Eternal Life, because only those who, by faith, repent of sin and confess Christ, truly believe in Him. This is what the whole Gospel teaches. To repent is to reject all sin within yourself and to do the perfect will of God rather than one's own sinful will. Those who believe they are saved while not repenting and keeping Christ's commandments are deceived, being among those who have tried to enter by the wide way, which leads to perdition. Within all of Christendom, there are always very few who truly believe in and confess Christ.

You're confusing the cart and the horse. What follows salvation is not the cause or condition of salvation, and thus you end up as a Neo-Circumcision salvation by works Christian.

 

[Vicomte13]

When we die, we are not afraid to die or even if we are afraid to die we know that we will be going to a place where we will be with our Savior forever. If we listen to the two commandments that Jesus left us with, which is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind then we will not be happy to die, but we will be happy when we are united with our Lord.

And when we are with Him, He promises that there will be no more tears, no more pain, no more sorrow only joy in heavenly places with Him where we will be co-heirs with Christ to the Father for eternity.

So death, even though it is not a joy will be beneficial for us. Not a place of sorrow or pain or hell, but eternity with the God who loved us enough to die for us.

After Adam and Eve sinned, in Genesis it says that if God would not have removed them from the Garden of Eden and they would have eaten from the Tree of Life that they would have lived forever, but in sin and apart from God.

God did not want His Children to live in sin and pain without Him for eternity so He numbered the days that mankind would have on this earth, so eventually we would be released from our bodies and sinful nature and be with God in heaven.

Thank you for that explanation. You explained how you look at Christian death, and I appreciate that. However, it answered a different question than the one I asked. What I asked was not rhetorical. It was a pointed question whose purpose was to refute the statement I quoted. The assertion was that our redemption by Christ restores us to the state of Adam and Eve before the Fall. That is not true.

Adam and Eve before the Fall were physically immortal. Christ, if we will have him, restores our spirit to the state of grace that perhaps Adam and Eve once enjoyed (and perhaps more, because of greater wisdom of what was at stake and how much was lost), but he does not restore our physical immortality here on earth. Adam and Eve had that, and we, though saved by Christ from the Lake of Fire at final judgment, are not restored to the original human physical perfection, or really any sort of physical perfection. A boy with muscular dystrophy who finds Christ finds the promise of life with God forever in the City after the end of the world, the resurrection and final judgment. But he still has muscular dystrophy here on earth, and will die of it.

Adam and Eve were not doomed to die at all until the Fall. Death was their sentence. Ever since, men and women die, physically, and their spirits depart from the earth. Thanks to Jesus, where those spirits depart TO is known, and their final disposition can be determined by what they do in this life. Jesus has restored the hope of eternal life SOMEWHERE ELSE. But he did NOT restore us to the state of Adam and Eve, because THEY were immortal on earth. That's not a little deal. It's a big deal. A big enough deal that God made a point, even with Christ, of NOT giving THAT state of grace back.

We are reconciled to God with Christ. But we are not fully restored to the same perfection as Adam and Eve, because they were immortal, and the most devout Christian remains mortal. Our state is fundamentally lesser than theirs was, and God has not (and apparently will not) restore that.

One can strain at it and say that we will one day be resurrected, and if we pass final judgment we will in fact have that physical immortality. And that is true. But it won't be on this earth, as Adam's and Eve's was. It will be on a NEW earth, in the City of God, that comes down from the sky. Other features of this New Earth will be that there will be outer darkness beyond the city, and there will be the lake of fire upon it - features it lacks today. That future immortality with God is grand, but it is not the same thing as Adam and Eve's immortality on this good green earth. It's different, in a different place. Jesus restored us to grace. He did not, however, restore us to Eden.

 

[Vicomte13]

By trying or exerting self-effort, or any kind of effort in "trying" to keep the commandments, by observing the commandments, you will fail miserably.

That's just not true. I myself have exerted personal effort to not fall into various temptations, and I did not (and do not) fail miserably. This was true when I was a pagan also. My problem with absolutist Christianity is that it just doesn't fit my own life experience. Catholic Christianity does, which is why it is believable to me. To tell me that I cannot resist temptation without Christ or that I was totally depraved until I realized that Christ was the Real Deal is just hooey. I did, based on my pagan values, self-interest and the goodness that God put into all humanity. With the realization of Christ, the dimmer switch is turned to bright white and the whys and wherefores all become clear and obvious, and I thank God for being with me when I was a pagan. The notion that he wasn't is absurd. He healed me miraculously and saved me from immediate death when I didn't believe he was anything like what he is.

I was not wholly depraved then, nor wholly lost. And realizing that Christ is the Son of God, and that God has a MIND, did not wholly change me into something unrecognizably new. It caused the scales to fall from my eyes and permitted me to see the REASON for so many things that I did not see before.

Nevertheless, before Christ was anything to me but an old friendly cultural myth, I was capable, through self-effort, to keep a moral code that was by and large the Christian moral code. Not perfectly, but not as a "miserable failure" either. And the eye-opening did not suddenly make me much more capable of resisting temptation. It made me understand the consequences better. Catholic Christianity perfectly describes my own direct experience with God, which is why I follow it. Absolutist Christianity says things that are just not true, in my experience.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I totally disagree. Where in the New Testament under the blood of Christ has a person ever been told to go through a third party when talking to God or repenting for sins? Please list the scripture.

Acts 19:18 and James 5:16.

Historical? I have no idea what you mean by historical unless you think the Catholic church has some claim to the apostle Peter which I would disagree with as well and ask for your proof of that.

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life... On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure"
- The Didache, A.D. 70

"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light."
- Letter of Barnabas, A.D. 74

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ."
- Ignatius of Antioch, A.D. 110

"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop."
- Ignatius of Antioch, A.D. 110

"A final method of forgiveness, albeit hard and laborious is the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner... does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord..."
- Origen, A.D. 248

I should add that Catholics are not the only ones who place considerable import to the writings of the Early Church. The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and others regard the passages cited above (in addition to many others I have not included for brevity's sake) to be authoritative as to the historical practices of Confession and Penance. This is significant inasmuch as they hold no special regard for the Pope beyond possibly primus inter pares.

Taken together, the above mentioned groups comprise the majority of all Christians who have lived and died through history... who, I gather, you might assume to have been gravely mistaken as regards the necessity of Confession. But then that raises the question of how the majority of Church leaders and Church faithful who have ever lived could have been wrong whereas you uniquely are right.

I live by God's Word, not man's.

Sola Scriptura is your limitation. Please don't try making it mine.

This happened once in this specific situation and was the blessing of Christ Himself on disciples, not a general statement to the church after the disciples deaths.

Looks like the Early Church didn't get the memo.

I don't think the Bible puts it the same way. The Bible is pretty clear that it is all types of divination.

The communion of the saints isn't divination... unless, as with so many other things, we radically alter the dictionary definition of what divination is.

Why does it matter what another man/human being does if God's Word tells us that is it an abomination to God?

Because some of them were trained by apostles themselves. Moreover they lived in a time and place where the practice of divination was day-to-day reality instead of the hypothetical scenario it is for most people today.

In case I'm being unclear here, they knew what they were talking about. I am not at all convinced that you do.

I don't think any man speaks for God on earth. Jesus said that we are all sinners. All imperfect people who are all saved by the grace of God. The traditions of man are not the words of God. God does not put imperfect people in His stead. He is God.

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Even many Church Fathers regarded Rome as a uniquely special jurisdiction.

So here again, either a huge number of people (some of whom were personally taught and trained by apostles) are gravely wrong or else you are wrong. Personally I find the latter to be more likely.

Even so, you do highlight an interesting challenge inherent to certain modes of Protestantism. The scriptures must be interpreted. This is a matter of simple reality. My Church has provided the interpretation of certain scriptures for me. And in relation to that, I find their interpretation of those scriptures to be the easiest to believe (perhaps owing to their 2,000 years of study).

But your mode of Protestantism basically requires the individual to interpret scripture for himself. Superficially this seems like the superior way to go. Indeed it is certainly more democratic. The weakness of this approach, however, is whatever gaps you may possess in your historical knowledge (of which I believe I've exposed at least a few) combined by any cultural or personal prejudices you may have could easily result in a flawed interpretative model for you. I daresay a flawed interpretation might even be inevitable.

Simply put, "I just don't believe in that" is the killer-app for rejecting any and all forms of authority (even scriptural authority) with which one personally disagrees whereas my Church's traditional approach preserves the wisdom of learned men all through history in ways which transcend one particular person living in one particular culture during one particular time.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you for that explanation. You explained how you look at Christian death, and I appreciate that. However, it answered a different question than the one I asked. What I asked was not rhetorical. It was a pointed question whose purpose was to refute the statement I quoted. The assertion was that our redemption by Christ restores us to the state of Adam and Eve before the Fall. That is not true.

I was talking about being spiritually dead (without God) versus spiritually alive (reconciled to God, have God indwelling us, ie Holy Spirit) I don't know if I made that clear or not. We do still have physical death because otherwise all of the people not reconciled back to God through Christ would live forever in their sin as humans as would we, since we receive Christ's righteousness to reconcile us back to God, not our own being non-sinful anymore or not having the desire to not sin anymore.

All of us have that sinful nature still inside of us that wars with us spiritually,the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin, we repent our sins are washed away and we go through life becoming sanctified (becoming more Christ-like) but not perfecting it.

So physical death is still needed. Hope that makes sense.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Acts 19:18 and James 5:16.

I don't believe it is the same at all.

First in Acts the disciples were specifically breathed upon by Jesus and giving that blessing, the ability to forgive sins, as I put the verses forth earlier. So that is accounted for by Jesus doing it personally.

In James 5:16, we are not confessing to other Christians for any kind of redemption or repentance but that other like minded people can help us on our journey and that we make ourselves accountable to other's as a means of edification, not judgement or redemption. More like how you might have a sponsor in AA who you would call if you drank. They cannot stop you sometimes from drinking and you do not have to call anyone to drink if you like, but often to get help to get back on track one has a sponsor so they than hold themselves accountable to someone else by choice.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sola Scriptura is your limitation. Please don't try making it mine.

If you look at what I said I said "I LIVE by sola scriptura ..." I did not indicate that you must. I was speaking for myself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All right, I think your just out to make a stir, so, I'm going to keep this as short as possible,

Well, that doesn't sound nice.
You are implying that my motives are not pure.
However, I said all of what I did as part of my faith in Jesus Christ and my faith in His Word. For I enjoy defending Jesus and His Word.
So please do not suggest I am just trying to get a stir or rise out of you (or others). That would simply not be true. Nor is it nice to say such a thing.

Not that the rich young ruler could never eventually attain to keeping the law, but that he was not currently, in this he was lying, though not aware of it until Jesus told him to give up his money...

No. Jesus was teaching a new way. Nowhere before did the Old Testament teach that one has to sell all their riches and give them unto the poor in order to follow God. I believe God blessed Solomon with wealth. But that was the Old Testament way and not the New Testament way. Anyways, the rich ruler did not know about Jesus's new way yet.

Remember, Jesus said to the rich young ruler, if you want to be perfect, sell your possessions and give it unto the poor and follow Him. This was not something that the rich ruler could not do because the disciples had forsaken all to follow Jesus. They were doing it! They were walking the talk. They were listening to Jesus's new way.

Jesus was working within his framework of where he was currently at in his walk, which was that by "trying" through "self-effort" to keep the commandments would get him in, this is a first step in our walk that is not till we fall on our face with it, God reveals the next steps to take, not until then...

So Jesus was setting the rich ruler up to fail? Sorry. That is not the conclusion of Jesus's words in Matthew 19. Jesus said,

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29).

Let's break this down. Jesus concludes that those who have forsaken their houses and their family for His names sake shall receive a hundredfold AND.... wait for it.... shall inherit everlasting life.

Jesus said this AFTER the rich ruler left!

His disciples did this!

By their own power? No!
By the power of God working in them!
For that is why Jesus said, "with God all things are possible."
It is why Jesus said there is none good but God.
Jesus wants us to do the good within our life.
In other words, Jesus can help you to stop sinning and to obey God's Commands. You cannot do it on your own power.

For do you truly believe that, With God all things are possible?
You said nobody can stop sinning.
I am here to tell you that by God's Word, a person can stop sinning by God's power working within their life.
Again, do you believe that, with God all things are possible?

I mean, why do you think Jesus said to the rich ruler to .... follow me?
Does that sound like he would be trying to do things on his own?
No. It sure doesn't like that.

By trying or exerting self-effort, or any kind of effort in "trying" to keep the commandments, by observing the commandments, you will fail miserably... You must observe Christ by faith, not the letter of the law(s)... Keeping the commandments must be a "fruit" of faith, of true, right Belief, of a truly converted person... A "fruit" not a work. Not by a work of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, or in faith of the law being a "fruit" of perfected faith... Not a work, not by effort, but a fruit of right believing, are those who have the fruit of keeping the commandments, by right believing and a, in short, "perfect(ed) faith"...

You are making assumptions about my belief that are simply not true. I willl make a list of my beliefs on this point so that you can see what I believe better.

#1. A Person must Believe in Jesus Christ and His Death and Resurrection for Salvation.

This is the foundation of our faith. Without believing that Jesus died for us in our place and that He has risen 3 days later so as to give us a new life in Him, there is no salvation.​

#2. Repentance.

Jesus says, repent or perish. This is commingled with a belief in Jesus for salvation. A person first coming to the faith for the first time will admit they are a sinner to Jesus and ask Jesus to forgive them of their sins with the intention that they will forsake those sins. After coming to the faith, they will confess their sins to Jesus and continue to forsake sin. When I say forsake sin, I am saying they will seek to overcome their sin problem with the Lord's help. This is not a solo mission of you trying to keep God's Law on your own power without Jesus (Note: See Point in #3 below on which law we have to obey). For it would be silly to suggest we have power on our own to obey God perfectly without Him. We have faith in Jesus that He will work within our lives to help us to overcome our sins. Anyways, Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12:41. Jesus says the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would learn that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to God and to turn from their sins. When God had seen that the people had indeed forsaken their wicked ways.... THAT.... is when God decided to change His mind in not bringing wrath or judgment against them. If they had an attitude like you where we just aim to not sin, but it is not that big of a deal that we stop sinning altogether (because nobody can stop sinning).... God would then see that the Ninevites did not turn from their wickedness and He would have been force to bring Judgment upon them. But good thing that didn't happen for the Ninevites. They actually did forsake their evil ways.

#3. Believers Obey the Commands in the New Testament and Not the Old Testament.

When Paul talks about how we are not under the Law, he is referring to the 613 Old Testament Laws as a whole. For we are no longer under the Old Covenant. This is evident if you were to read the context of the surrounding text or chapters that in some cases talks about circumcision in being a requirement for salvation. But circumcision is not a requirement for salvation. For it is a part of the Old Covenant. It is a law that is no longer in effect anymore. In fact, it is why you are confused as to why you think the rich young ruler was lying. Jesus was making changes and offering a new way. He was making new laws that were to be a part of the New Covenant that was to officially go into effect with His death. For we do not sacrifice animals anymore. We can now eat unclean animals (which is a violation of OT Law). The Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding day we have to worship on. For some regard all days the same; And we are not to judge according to Sabbath keeping. Jesus said we are to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye.
​

#2. Obeying Jesus is a Part of Faith and Fruit Bearing.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus Christ and the work that He has done for us. Believing in Jesus would include believing in everything that Jesus taught and commanded of us, too. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Jesus is saying we cannot be His Lord if we are not obeying Him. This is a part of having faith in Jesus. For are you truly trusting and having faith in Jesus if you do not believe or do what He says? Surely not. Remember when Peter stepped out onto the water and he then shortly began to sink? (See Matthew 14:22-33) What did Jesus say to Peter? Jesus said, "Oh, you of little faith, wherefore did you doubt?" In other words, Peter failed to walk on the water (which is an action) because of his lack of faith. So when we fail to take action in believing in the words of Jesus in obeying His commands, it is also a lack of faith in Him. As for the fruits of faith? Well, all you have to do is read Hebrews 11 and you will learn that actions or fruit is what follows faith.
​

Also, Scripture says,

22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
(Galatians 5:22-23).

Now, this next verse is going to go against everything you believe. It says,

24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

It says here that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Yet, you are saying that people are liars if they have done this. Well, you used different words. You said, folks are lying if they claim they have stopped sinning. Let me ask you. Can you stop sinning for 5 minutes? How about for 1 hour? Can you do it for a whole day? How about a week? Could you not go into a forest with the Word of God and focus just on the LORD and His Word in prayer the whole time? How about a month? Can you do it? Sure you can.

Again, 1 John 2:4 says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

Fulfillment of the law comes by the law of faith or right believing, and by that faith, fulfills it as a fruit, and not by a work...

I do not disagree with what you stated here. I also believe that one needs to first have faith in the LORD. For it is how we get clean if we were to stumble on the road to overcoming our sin (With the Lord's help). One cannot obey God's laws without first having faith and continuing in the faith. I also believe good works are the fruit of the Lord working in the believer and I do not believe it is the work of the believer alone. I believe there is none good but God. For we are nothing. Christ is everything. On our own we cannot do any good. It is God who does the good thru us. It is God who brings forth fruit thru our lives by our faith in Him.

But in your belief, it is saying you can sin and still be saved.
But wouldn't God have to agree with your evil or sin in order to save you?
Does not God have to agree with this type of salvation plan in order for it to work? But can God agree with sin? Surely not.

The only work you should do is whatever is necessary to strengthen bolster and increase your faith, your believing right, and if you focus on this and not the letter of the law, as you work on only your faith, fulfilling the law will be a fruit of that...

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
When you obey or hear the words of God in the Bible on the commands within the New Testament (and not the Old Testament), you are having faith in God. The point Paul was making is that the Pharisees were trying to keep the Old Testament Laws without Jesus Christ on their own power. But the Old Law is no longer in effect anymore and man cannot obey God without God living in them.

If a man love me he will keep my words about the New Covenant that is superior to the law, and that is of faith, which is superior to the law,

You are confused. First, faith existed in the Old Covenant (See Hebrews 11). Second, there are laws mentioned within the New Covenant.

There is:

1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).
2. The Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2).
3. The Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12).
4. The Royal Law (James 2:8).

There is even a command (law) that says,

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3:23).

Is this a Law or Command we should not strive to obey?

I'm curious, in all of this, I'd like to ask you then, How you suggest we should go about keeping the commandments and how to do it successfully? (and I'd appreciate an answer to at least this, if you could, please)

There are different Biblical methods by the power of God to help a person in how to stop sinning.
I have listed them before. But I think in this case, you should watch these two short videos here (To get the basics):

How to stop sinning | HowToStopSinning.com
Alan Ballou's YouTube Page

Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may you please be well.

God Bless!

May the Lord's peace be unto you.
And may you grow into the knowledge of Him and His goodness.

Sincerely,

~Jason.


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