Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[truefiction1]

You're confusing the cart and the horse. What follows salvation is not the cause or condition of salvation, and thus you end up as a Neo-Circumcision salvation by works Christian.

You're confusing salvation with a false sense of what salvation is. Salvation is the gift of Eternal Life, and Eternal Life is this: "that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." Hence, Eternal Life is a "quality" of being, not merely existence without end. It is Life in Communion with God by the Holy Spirit. This quality of being is sustained only through obedience to God's will. One who chooses the sin of self-love over Love for God, whether in thought or in deed, chooses to reject Eternal Life. How can one who freely chooses love of self over Love for God be saved? They can't. They must repent and resist temptation, doing God's perfect will rather than their own fallen will. That is why the Lord teaches us that the Way is narrow, and few enter by it. It is also why He teaches that it is only by committing violence against one's selfish desires that those who lay hold of the Kingdom of Heaven do so (Matthew 11:12). It is also why He teaches us that it is only those who do the will of God who are saved. It is also why He will say to those "goat" Christians who chose not to obey God's will but strove to please only themselves, "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity..." It is also why those Apostles of His obeyed the will of God in all things, enduring every measure of discomfort, pain, risk of death, torture, persecution, slander, and for most all of them, being murdered. It is also why all true disciples to this day work hard, sacrifice much, endure great hardships, even being slandered and murdered. All of these children of God were not forced by God to suffer these things. They freely agreed to it, often (and especially at first), with great difficulty.

This gospel of easy, automatic salvation that many have liked to preach in the name of Christianity is not the same Gospel preached by Christ and instilled within the Apostolic Church of His Apostles. It is not the Tradition of the Apostles. When taken to an extreme it is a blatant lie about what salvation even is. Lies don't come from God. Christ tells us to make sure and keep our guard up at all times, lest we fall into some temptation and are found in a state of sin and corruption when He comes for us, in which case we will be cut off from Communion with God for eternity. The Apostle Paul wrote "I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.…" because he knew that only those who persevered until their end would spend eternity in blessed communion with God rather than with all the evil spirits in torments, because whosoever sins automatically submits themselves to bondage to Satan.

There is no help to those who really want to receive Eternal Life in the "once saved always saved" invention. It is an evil disguised in good (but most often false) feelings of security. It is a doctrine that mostly benefits demons in their quest to keep as many humans as they can from coming to know God through mystical Communion with Him in the Holy Spirit, Who shows us the Son, Who in turn reveals the Father.

We choose Communion and Life, over sin and spiritual blindness and death. "Choose" is what we must do, at all times and in every moment. This is Love.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You're confusing salvation with a false sense of what salvation is. Salvation is the gift of Eternal Life, and Eternal Life is this: "that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." Hence, Eternal Life is a "quality" of being, not merely existence without end. It is Life in Communion with God by the Holy Spirit. This quality of being is sustained only through obedience to God's will. One who chooses the sin of self-love over Love for God, whether in thought or in deed, chooses to reject Eternal Life. How can one who freely chooses love of self over Love for God be saved? They can't. They must repent and resist temptation, doing God's perfect will rather than their own fallen will. That is why the Lord teaches us that the Way is narrow, and few enter by it. It is also why He teaches that it is only by committing violence against one's selfish desires that those who lay hold of the Kingdom of Heaven do so (Matthew 11:12). It is also why He teaches us that it is only those who do the will of God who are saved. It is also why He will say to those "goat" Christians who chose not to obey God's will but strove to please only themselves, "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity..." It is also why those Apostles of His obeyed the will of God in all things, enduring every measure of discomfort, pain, risk of death, torture, persecution, slander, and for most all of them, being murdered. It is also why all true disciples to this day work hard, sacrifice much, endure great hardships, even being slandered and murdered. All of these children of God were not forced by God to suffer these things. They freely agreed to it, often (and especially at first), with great difficulty.

This gospel of easy, automatic salvation that many have liked to preach in the name of Christianity is not the same Gospel preached by Christ and instilled within the Apostolic Church of His Apostles. It is not the Tradition of the Apostles. When taken to an extreme it is a blatant lie about what salvation even is. Lies don't come from God. Christ tells us to make sure and keep our guard up at all times, lest we fall into some temptation and are found in a state of sin and corruption when He comes for us, in which case we will be cut off from Communion with God for eternity. The Apostle Paul wrote "I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.…" because he knew that only those who persevered until their end would spend eternity in blessed communion with God rather than with all the evil spirits in torments, because whosoever sins automatically submits themselves to bondage to Satan.

There is no help to those who really want to receive Eternal Life in the "once saved always saved" invention. It is an evil disguised in good (but most often false) feelings of security. It is a doctrine that mostly benefits demons in their quest to keep as many humans as they can from coming to know God through mystical Communion with Him in the Holy Spirit, Who shows us the Son, Who in turn reveals the Father.

We choose Communion and Life, over sin and spiritual blindness and death. "Choose" is what we must do, at all times and in every moment. This is Love.

Wouldn't that mean that Christ's death wasn't enough to save an individual? If Christ says that salvation is a gift of grace by faith, than how can sin override God Himself dying for sin and giving us His righteousness? Because didn't the Father accept Christ's sacrifice when He ressurrected Christ? If Christ's death was not enough, why did the Father ressurrect Him? Christ did not ressurrect Himself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wouldn't that mean that Christ's death wasn't enough to save an individual? If Christ says that salvation is a gift of grace by faith, than how can sin override God Himself dying for sin and giving us His righteousness? Because didn't the Father accept Christ's sacrifice when He ressurrected Christ? If Christ's death was not enough, why did the Father ressurrect Him? Christ did not ressurrect Himself.

First, the Scriptures say that all three members of the Godhead were at work with Christ raising from the dead.

God the Father raised Jesus.

By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also
(1 Corinthians 6:14).​

The Living Word raised His body.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body (John 2:19-20).​

The Holy Spirit raised Jesus.

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit (1 Peter 3:18).​

Second, gifts that we receive come with responsibilities in keeping them. If we receive a car or a diamond ring, we have to be responsible with these things or they can be damaged or taken away from us. It's what life teaches us. When you read Ephesians 2:8-9, you have to also keep reading on into verse 10 that says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. We are not our own, we are bought and paid for with a price. If we love the world, we will be the enemies of God.

Three, allowing Christ to flow thru us by obeying His commands as a part of the Sanctification process within God's plan of salvation does not mean Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient. On the contrary, the Scriptures say, "For the grace of God ... teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age," (Titus 2:11-12). How so? Well, the Scriptures say, "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6). "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5). "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4). "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (John 3:20). "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

In other words, Christ's sacrifice shows us that it has the power to set us free from having to be a slave to sin so we can now be set free to walk in God's good ways (in the power of a new and risen life).


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

First, the Scriptures say that all three members of the Godhead were at work with Christ raising from the dead.

God the Father raised Jesus.

By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also
(1 Corinthians 6:14).​

The Living Word raised His body.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body (John 2:19-20).​

...

I don't see Jesus ressurrecting Himself in John 2:19-20. I'm talking about Jesus actual ressurrection.

I also do not see the Father expressedly mentioned in 1 Cor. 6:14.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't see Jesus ressurrecting Himself in John 2:19-20. I'm talking about Jesus actual ressurrection.

I also do not see the Father expressedly mentioned in 1 Cor. 6:14.

That's okay if you don't see it. It still clearly says it never the less.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This would be the works of the devil within our lives. So it is not just about forgiveness by us saying we are sorry, but it is about us being set free from sin having a hold on our lives. For Jesus came to set the captives free.


...

 

[Aldebaran]

John 5:24:
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life."

This seems straightforward enough. Man managed to pass from life into death by a single act. That was when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. It wasn't a process. It wasn't the first step of many that he needed to take to cross from life into death. But man managed to do it in one simple step.

God gave us a way to pass from death into life. He provided us with the gift of Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection. It's one simple step, but we are adding to it and making a more complicated process. Believe me, God is much more powerful than man. If man can pass from life into death in a single step, why can't God give us a way to pass from death to life in a single step?

His Words to us says He has.

 

[truefiction1]

Wouldn't that mean that Christ's death wasn't enough to save an individual? If Christ says that salvation is a gift of grace by faith, than how can sin override God Himself dying for sin and giving us His righteousness? Because didn't the Father accept Christ's sacrifice when He ressurrected Christ? If Christ's death was not enough, why did the Father ressurrect Him? Christ did not ressurrect Himself.

The Church doesn't teach that Christ's death alone is what saves us, it was actually a certain man, Anselm of Canterbury, who was a Roman Catholic scholastic philosopher who lived at the end of the 11th century and beginning of the 12th who taught this. It is a mistake. This narrowly defined view of salvation isn't the view of the ancient Church.

Christ was Incarnate, Christ preached His Gospel, Christ died in order to rise from the dead, Christ ascended into heaven and Christ sent the Holy Spirit. It's all these things together that save us. We aren't saved by the sacrifice apart from the descent of the Holy Spirit Who gives us Life.

As to the question of Who raise Jesus from the dead, the Trinity did. Christ is the Word of God. His very personhood speaks the will of the Father, so He did indeed raise Himself by the Power of the Holy Spirit. He said He had the power to lay down His life and the power to take it back up again, (John 10:17-18) because He is God's Eternal Word(John 5:26).

 

[truefiction1]

John 5:24:
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life."

This seems straightforward enough. Man managed to pass from life into death by a single act. That was when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. It wasn't a process. It wasn't the first step of many that he needed to take to cross from life into death. But man managed to do it in one simple step.

God gave us a way to pass from death into life. He provided us with the gift of Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection. It's one simple step, but we are adding to it and making a more complicated process. Believe me, God is much more powerful than man. If man can pass from life into death in a single step, why can't God give us a way to pass from death to life in a single step?

His Words to us says He has.

John 5:24 only seems to support the idea that belief in God alone and listening to Christ's message when all the other sayings of Christ are ignored, such as: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.", or something like this: "You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder!" (James 2:19)

So then, what is the will of the Father concerning us? It is as this: "For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

So then, what is this Eternal Life that the Father wills us to have? it is this: "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

So then, who are those who know the only true God, and Jesus Christ? They are those described as follows: "Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him." (John 14:21)

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18)

Christ's commandments are Love. They are purity and Light. They literally breath within the living Word of the New Testament Scriptures. Let's do the Father's will, make them our own, and Live:

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 5:24:
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life."

John 5:24:
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life."

This seems straightforward enough. Man managed to pass from life into death by a single act. That was when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. It wasn't a process. It wasn't the first step of many that he needed to take to cross from life into death. But man managed to do it in one simple step.

God gave us a way to pass from death into life. He provided us with the gift of Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection. It's one simple step, but we are adding to it and making a more complicated process. Believe me, God is much more powerful than man. If man can pass from life into death in a single step, why can't God give us a way to pass from death to life in a single step?

His Words to us says He has.

This seems straightforward enough. Man managed to pass from life into death by a single act. That was when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. It wasn't a process. It wasn't the first step of many that he needed to take to cross from life into death. But man managed to do it in one simple step.

God gave us a way to pass from death into life. He provided us with the gift of Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection. It's one simple step, but we are adding to it and making a more complicated process. Believe me, God is much more powerful than man. If man can pass from life into death in a single step, why can't God give us a way to pass from death to life in a single step?

His Words to us says He has.

The KJV says,
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

So you have to hear the words of Jesus in order to have everlasting life.
Let's see another one.

John 10:28 says,
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Sure sounds like a slam dunk, right?
Nobody can perish if Jesus gives them eternal life, right?
However, if we look at the verse before this one, it says,

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).

In other words, the sheep that cannot perish or cannot be plucked out of the Father's hand are those sheep that follow Jesus. These are not lazy sheep being dragged by their necks on leashes here.

1 John 3:7 says, "let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous,"

1 John 3:8 says, "he that commits sin is of the devil"

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (John 3:20).

1 John 2:3-6 says,
3 "And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

"....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

"And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."
(Matthew 13:41).

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:23).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father [God] who is in heaven."
(Matthew 7:21).

"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).

Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

"26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
(Galatians 6:7-9).

If any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
(James 1:21-22).

"but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17).

"If you love me, keep my commandments."
(John 14:15).

"He that loves not knows not God; for God is love."
(1 John 4:8).

"He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life."
(1 John 5:12).

" ...if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"11 For the grace of God...
12 teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age," (Titus 2:11-12).

"...he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).


...

 

[Neogaia777]

The KJV says,
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

So you have to hear the words of Jesus in order to have everlasting life.
Let's see another one.

John 10:28 says,
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Sure sounds like a slam dunk, right?
Nobody can perish if Jesus gives them eternal life, right?
However, if we look at the verse before this one, it says,

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).

In other words, the sheep that cannot perish or cannot be plucked out of the Father's hand are those sheep that follow Jesus. These are not lazy sheep being dragged by their necks on leashes here.

1 John 3:7 says, "let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous,"

1 John 3:8 says, "he that commits sin is of the devil"

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (John 3:20).

1 John 2:3-6 says,
3 "And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

"....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

"And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."
(Matthew 13:41).

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:23).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father [God] who is in heaven."
(Matthew 7:21).

"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).

Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

"26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
(Galatians 6:7-9).

If any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17).

"If you love me, keep my commandments."
(John 14:15).

"He that loves not knows not God; for God is love."
(1 John 4:8).

"He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life."
(1 John 5:12).

" ...if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"11 For the grace of God...
12 teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age," (Titus 2:11-12).

"...he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).


...

Awesome scriptures, I like how you put them together...

Just one question though, In 1John where is says "he who commits sin is of the Devil" In that same book, it also says "If we say we have no sin, we are making him (God) a liar, and the truth is not in us..."

I reconcile the two by saying "He who continues in willfully sinning after putting away their former sin or being born again, is of the Devil... For if, we say we have not ever sinned (past tense) (even willfully, in the past, before being born again) If we say we have not ever sinned, we are making him (God) a liar, and the truth is not in us...

Nice Job though... I like all those...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Awesome scriptures, I like how you put them together...

Thank you.

Just one question though, In 1John where is says "he who commits sin is of the Devil" In that same book, it also says "If we say we have no sin, we are making him (God) a liar, and the truth is not in us..."

I reconcile the two by saying "He who continues in willfully sinning after putting away their former sin or being born again, is of the Devil... For if, we say we have not ever sinned (past tense) (even willfully, in the past, before being born again) If we say we have not ever sinned, we are making him (God) a liar, and the truth is not in us...

Well, 1 John 1:8 is about denying sin's existence (if we say we have no sin when we do sin the truth is not in us). 1 John 1:8 has to be read in context to 1 John 2:4. They are essentially saying the same thing (for if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments the truth is not in us). 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against thinking the same way as the gnostics who denied sin's existence by thinking that there was no dire after death consequences if they did sin (1 John 2:26). Hence, why 1 John 1:9 is the next verse that follows - because it teaches a person what to do if they do happen to sin. 1 John 1:8 is written to the Christian Scientist today who thinks sin does not exist whatsoever. 1 John 1:8 is also written to the OSAS proponent (i.e. The Once Saved Always Saved believer) today because they partially deny sin's existence. For they believe they sin physically but yet they think sin does not exist for them on a spiritual level whatsoever because Christ paid for all their sins including present and future sins (Whereby they believe confession of sin is not necessary in order to be forgiven of sin). In other words, these types of believers ignore both 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:9 as a result of their denial of the consequences of sin (Note: Some OSAS proponents do differ slightly on this belief).

Anyways, the confusion on your part (among other people who think the same way) is quickly cleared up if you and others were to read the New English Translation that says,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt [after-life consequence] of sin [if or when we do sin], we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).*
​

or if you were to read the Expanded Bible, that says,

"If we say we ·have no sin [or have no sin nature; or are not guilty of sinning [in the sense that we have no sin when we do sin]], we are ·fooling [deceiving] ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (Expanded Bible).*
​

Note: The blue words within the brackets are my further explanation to the above verses.​

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you, as well.


...

 

[truefiction1]

Awesome scriptures, I like how you put them together...

Just one question though, In 1John where is says "he who commits sin is of the Devil" In that same book, it also says "If we say we have no sin, we are making him (God) a liar, and the truth is not in us..."

I reconcile the two by saying "He who continues in willfully sinning after putting away their former sin or being born again, is of the Devil... For if, we say we have not ever sinned (past tense) (even willfully, in the past, before being born again) If we say we have not ever sinned, we are making him (God) a liar, and the truth is not in us...

Nice Job though... I like all those...

God Bless!

Confessing the sin (repentance) purifies one of it. Continuing in it willfully, choosing not to acknowledge it because of pride, is the sort of existence that makes one a slave of the Devil.

 

[Neogaia777]

Confessing the sin (repentance) purifies one of it. Continuing in it willfully, choosing not to acknowledge it because of pride, is the sort of existence that makes one a slave of the Devil.

Confession is not the same as repentance though, so which purifies one of it?

Are you saying that we do continue in willfully sinning after being born again or being converted, cause, or else if we don't, or we say we are not any longer, we are wrong and it's a pride issue? If so, how does that jive with 1John 3:8? and not just sins done in ignorance, that we only realize later on and then have a responsibility to do something about?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Thank you.



Well, 1 John 1:8 is about denying sin's existence (if we say we have no sin when we do sin the truth is not in us). 1 John 1:8 has to be read in context to 1 John 2:4. They are essentially saying the same thing (for if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments the truth is not in us). 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against thinking the same way as the gnostics who denied sin's existence by thinking that there was no dire after death consequences if they did sin (1 John 2:26). Hence, why 1 John 1:9 is the next verse that follows - because it teaches a person what to do if they do happen to sin. 1 John 1:8 is written to the Christian Scientist today who thinks sin does not exist whatsoever. 1 John 1:8 is also written to the OSAS proponent (i.e. The Once Saved Always Saved believer) today because they partially deny sin's existence. For they believe they sin physically but yet they think sin does not exist for them on a spiritual level whatsoever because Christ paid for all their sins including present and future sins (Whereby they believe confession of sin is not necessary in order to be forgiven of sin). In other words, these types of believers ignore both 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:9 as a result of their denial of the consequences of sin (Note: Some OSAS proponents do differ slightly on this belief).

Anyways, the confusion on your part (among other people who think the same way) is quickly cleared up if you and others were to read the New English Translation that says,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt [after-life consequence] of sin [if or when we do sin], we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).*
​

or if you were to read the Expanded Bible, that says,

"If we say we ·have no sin [or have no sin nature; or are not guilty of sinning [in the sense that we have no sin when we do sin]], we are ·fooling [deceiving] ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (Expanded Bible).*
​

Note: The blue words within the brackets are my further explanation to the above verses.​

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you, as well.


...

I'm still not understanding how it means denying sin's existence, though I can see how it applies to those in the world that do, and do not see it God's way?

But, then again, who's "we"...? Is he not including everyone, himself, us, Christians, even ones who do not deny sin's existence? Isn't those who do not deny sin's existence, included in "we"...?

Same question to you as addressed to truefiction1 in the above this post...?

God Bless!

 

[truefiction1]

Confession is not the same as repentance though, so which purifies one of it?

Are you saying that we do continue in willfully sinning after being born again or being converted, cause, or else if we don't, or we say we are not any longer, we are wrong and it's a pride issue? If so, how does that jive with 1John 3:8? and not just sins done in ignorance, that we only realize later on and then have a responsibility to do something about?

God Bless!

It is contrition of heart that purifies one of sin. True repentance and true confession of one's sinfulness is born of true humility. True humility is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

But I'm not a good teacher about such things, so I'll just try to offer some brief commentary in a little while, written by someone else who I think is.

 

[Neogaia777]

It is contrition of heart that purifies one of sin. True repentance and true confession of one's sinfulness is born of true humility. True humility is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Did Esau have a contrite heart?

See here for what I'm talking about: Esau sought repentance with many tears, but did not find it... The importance of repentance...

He might or might not have had a contrite heart, he more than likely confessed, but did not attain to repentance and it says God hated him, possibly for it/that...?

Humility and humbleness is something I've definitely had to take a few hard and difficult "crash courses" with God on/about... I only can hope I'm at least close to having learned it...?

But I'm not a good teacher about such things, so I'll just try to offer some brief commentary in a little while, written by someone else who I think is.

OK, cool...

Thanks,

God Bless!

 

[truefiction1]

Did Esau have a contrite heart?

See here for what I'm talking about: Esau sought repentance with many tears, but did not find it... The importance of repentance...

He might or might not have had a contrite heart, he more than likely confessed, but did not attain to repentance and it says God hated him, possibly for it/that...?

Humility and humbleness is something I've definitely had to take a few hard and difficult "crash courses" with God on/about... I only can hope I'm at least close to having learned it...?



OK, cool...

Thanks,

God Bless!

Well, here is an excerpt from a newly translated (into English) book "The Field", regarding the place of faith in salvation. But, I think that a commentary on the Beatitudes of Christ from His sermon on the mount might be even more helpful. I'll try to type it and post it as well, if possible:

“Repent, and believe in the gospel”, we are told by the Gospel. What a simple, true, and holy command! We must repent, leave behind our sinful life, before we become capable of approaching the Gospels. In order to accept the Gospel, we have to believe in it.

The Apostle Paul considered the essence of the preaching of Christ to be the message of repentance and faith. He testified to everyone, both Jew and Gentiles of, “repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Gospel, as the revelation of God, is higher than any achievement, remaining inconceivable for fallen human reason. The inconceivable wisdom of God is only conceived by faith, because faith can accept everything that is impossible for reason and that even contradicts reason. Only the soul that willfully rejects sin and directs all of its willpower and strength to divine good is capable of faith.

“I have come as a light into the world,” said the Lord. This light came to the Jews clothed in flesh; before us, he stands clothed in the Gospels.

This light comes before us, “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.”

Who does not believe in the Son of God? Not only he who openly, assuredly rejects Him but also he who, while calling himself a Christian, leads a sinful life, rushes around after pleasures of the world, whose god is his stomach, whose god is gold and silver, whose god is earthly glory, who honors earthly wisdom, antagonistic to God, as god himself. “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God”

Without self-denial a person is not capable of faith; his fallen reason fights against faith, demanding an answer of God in all His actions and proof of His revealed truths. The fallen heart wants to live the life of the fallen, which faith strives to mortify. Flesh and blood, ignoring the constant presence of death all around it, wants to live its own life – the life of death and sin.

This is why the Lord told all who desire to follow Him with living faith: “If any one desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”

The fall has become so assimilated to the essence of all mankind that rejection of the fall has become tantamount to rejection of our very life. Without such self-denial it is impossible to acquire faith, which is the pledge of eternal, blessed, spiritual life. Whoever wants to enliven the passions of his heart or body and to gain pleasure from them, whoever wants to enliven his fallen reason, he will fall away from faith.

Living faith is walking into the spiritual world, the world of God. It cannot exist in a person who is nailed to the cross of the world, ruled by flesh and sin.

Faith is the door to God. There is no other door to him: “without faith it is impossible to please [God].” This door opens only slowly before the one who purifies himself with constant repentance; it is open widely only before the pure heart; it is shut for the lover of sin.

Only through faith can one approach Christ; only through faith can one follow Christ.

Faith is a natural quality of the human soul, planted in man at the creation by the merciful God. This natural quality is chosen by God during the course of redemption as the branch through which to graft grace back onto fallen man.

God wisely chose faith as the tool of mankind’s salvation, for we perished by believing the flattery of the enemy of God and mankind. A long time ago, the noise of his evil words was heard in Eden, and our forefathers listened and believed, and were cast out of Eden. Now, in the land of our exile, their descendants hear the voice of the Word of God, the Gospels, and once again those who listen and believe in it can enter paradise.

You who do not believe! Turn away from your lack of faith! Sinner! Reject your sinful life! Wise man! Deny your false wisdom! Turn to God! With your goodness and lack of evil, you will become like children, and with childlike simplicity you will believe in the Gospel.

Dead faith, or confessing Christ merely out of unwilling necessity, is something that the demons are capable of! Such a faith will only add to a person’s greater condemnation at the judgment of Christ. The unclean spirit cried out to the Lord: “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know who You are – the Holy One of God!” Faith in the Gospels must be living; one must believe with the mind and the heart, confess the faith with one’s lips, and express and prove it with one’s life. “Show me your faith without your works!” Thus, the Apostle James addresses the one who boasts of his dead faith, with only the bare knowledge of the existence of God.

“Faith”, said St Simeon the New Theologian, “in the full sense of this word contains in itself all of the divine commandments of Christ. It is stamped with the assuredness, that there is not a single part of the commandments that has no meaning, that all of them, until the very last iota, are the life and reason for eternal life.” -- St Ignatius Brianchaninov

 

[truefiction1]

On the Gospel Beatitudes

Through the fulfillment of the Gospel commandments, the soul is visited by senses that are contrary to our fallen nature, unknown to it. “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” And since the commandments of Christ are spiritual, the senses created by them are spiritual ones.

What is the first emotion, or sense, that appears in the soul from the keeping of Christ’s commandments? Poverty of spirit.

Almost as soon as the Christian truly desires to bring to fruition the inner and outer commands of Christ they become aware of their own damaged nature, which rebels and stubbornly acts against the Gospels.

The Christian, in light of the Gospels, sees in himself the complete fall of humanity.

From this vision, naturally comes a humble self-assessment, which in the Gospels is called being “poor in spirit,” or poverty of spirit.

Poverty of spirit is a Beatitude, the first in the Gospel Beatitudes, the first in the order of spiritual progress, the first spiritual state, the first step in the ladder of the virtues.

Every emotion and state belonging to the renewed nature is by necessity also a Beatitude, because each is the revelation of the heavenly kingdom in the soul as a pledge of salvation, as a foretaste of eternal blessedness.

The holy David said of poverty of spirit that “the sacrifice unto God is a contrite spirit; a contrite and humble heart God shall not despise.”

Poverty of spirit is salt for all spiritual sacrifices and whole-burnt offerings. If they are not salted with this salt, God will reject them.

Seeing one’s own fallen-ness is already blessedness for the fallen man.

He who sees his own fall is capable of admitting the necessity for salvation and the Savior, and he is capable of believing in the Gospels with living faith.

This state is a gift of grace, the action of grace, its fruit, and therefore it is blessedness.

A poor man naturally sorrows over his poverty.

Poverty of spirit thus naturally gives birth to the next Beatitude: mourning.

Mourning is the reverent cry of the faithful soul that sees its limitless sinful stains in the mirror of the Gospels.

Such a soul washes off these stains with holy water – its tears. The soul washes off these stains with holy sorrow.

Unutterable consolation, ineffable lightness pour out into the heart after the shedding of salvific tears for one’s sins and fallen-ness, tears that have appeared as a result of poverty of spirit.

If, here on earth, reverent mourning gives such incomparable spiritual consolation, what sort of blessedness does it prepare for us in the life to come?

Christ uttered His judge’s decision on those who reverently weep: “Blessed are those who mourn!”

Did you commit a sin? Shed tears of sorrow.

Whoever is intent in a profound appraisal of himself, whoever sees himself defiled by countless sins, whoever considers himself worthy of eternal suffering and weeps as though already condemned for them, he barely sees the sins of his neighbors and easily excuses those deficiencies that he sees. From his whole heart, he gladly forgives all insults and offenses.

The state of a soul when all anger, hatred, remembrance of evil, and judgment has been rooted out is a new blessedness, a new Beatitude called meekness.

“Blesse are the meek,” said the Savior, “for they shall inherit the earth.”

What is this “earth”? After the fall, God called Adam “earth,” and in Adam, He has called me “earth” as well. “For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.

Since I am dust and earth, I no longer have authority over this earth. Various passions have stolen if from me, especially the horrible anger that controls me and gives me pleasure. I even have no power of myself. Meekness returns this power to me and gives me authority over my inheritance, my “earth”, which is myself, my body, my blood, and my passions. “The meek shall inherit the earth, and shall be refreshed in the multitude of peace.”

Having once again gained power over my “earth”, I begin to desire heaven. I enter into a new state, which is created in me by grace. I begin to “hunger and thirst for righteousness” of God, not empty, human righteousness.

The righteousness of God appeared to mankind through divine mercy and commanded us to become like God through perfect mercy, not through some other virtue.

Mercy judges no man, loves its enemies, lays down its life for its neighbor, and makes a person – like God. This state is once again a Beatitude.

The heart that is filled with mercy cannot have any thought of evil. All of its thoughts are goodness itself.

The heart that is moved only by good is a pure heart, capable of seeing God. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

What is a pure heart? One great instructor of monastics was asked this question. He answered: “It is a heart that, like God, is moved by a boundless feeling of mercy for all creation.”

The peace of God is accompanied by the obvious presence of the Holy Spirit in the person, because it is the action and fruit of the Holy Spirit.

He who has acquired the peace of God in himself is capable of the other final Beatitudes – of patient suffering and of joy in persecutions, slanders, exile, and all other manner of evil.

He who has acquired the peace of God is not afraid of the waves of the sea of the world, because the consolation of grace has destroyed in his heart all appreciation for the things of this world – the sensuality, heaviness, and bitterness of the world.

Look at this great spiritual ladder of Gospel Beatitudes, and look at each step. How good it would be to stand at the top of this ladder; but truly blessed is the one who is even on the first step.

Jumps ahead are impossible on this ladder; one can only climb it one step at a time.

Divine grace lead one up this ladder. It leads him to the next step not when he thinks he is worthy, but when grace admits his worth.

Those who are worthy of climbing to the next step are the humble.

Do not invent Beatitudes for yourself. Proud and stupid self-conceit can invent all manner of blessedness for a person, and he will fool himself during the course of his entire life, flattering himself, and so he will deny himself any true good things either on earth or in heaven.

Seek poverty of spirit. Striving after this virtue is allowed and even encouraged. It is the foundation and giver of all other Beatitudes. When the foundation is weak, then even the one on the highest step of spiritual progress will fall down, and often he is killed by the fall.

Poverty of spirit is found by the study of the Gospels, by keeping its commandments, by measuring one’s own actions by the standards of the Gospels, by forcing one’s own heart to courageously endure insults, and by self-accusation and prayer for a heart that is broken and humbled.

God rejects the petitions of the proud. He does not answer petitions that are unnecessary for us, but when His creature begs an essential and beneficial gift, He sends it from his bottomless treasure troves.

God’s most essential and useful spiritual gift for man is poverty of spirit. Amen. -- St Ignatius Brianchaninov (excerpt from "The Field")

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm still not understanding how it means denying sin's existence, though I can see how it applies to those in the world that do, and do not see it God's way?

But, then again, who's "we"...? Is he not including everyone, himself, us, Christians, even ones who do not deny sin's existence? Isn't those who do not deny sin's existence, included in "we"...?

Same question to you as addressed to truefiction1 in the above this post...?

God Bless!

First, the OSAS Interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not fit the context. Especially when John states, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).. In fact, we see no surrounding text tell us anything to support the idea that the truth is not in us if we say we are not always sinning.

Second, the idea of saying we are always in sin would not be true, either. It is very easy to not sin for a day and or even a week being a born again believer in Jesus Christ. We can retreat to a forest and we can pray for a week with God’s Word, or we can simply pray so as not to be led into temptation and remove ourselves from sinful things. If you do not think it is not possible to do such a thing, do you think a person can stop sinning for 5 minutes? How about an hour? If such is the case, then the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is clearly false.

Three, as for 1 John 1:8 being a warning to the person who denies sin’s existence: This is basically a person saying that "sin" does not apply to them in regards to their right standing with God. For as I said before, 1 John 2:4 says the same thing, but using different words. 1 John 3:4 says “sin is transgression of the Law.” Laws are the same thing as Commands. So not keeping the Commandments is sin. In light of this fact, this is what 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments [i.e. sins], is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” ‭In other words, when one says they walk with God and yet they sin, the truth is not in them because they are ignoring sin (by breaking the commandments) in their self professed walk with God. For he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8), and all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).

Also, Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and that it does not exist. OSAS Proponents think that for a believer in Jesus, all sin is paid for (Including present and future sins that are not confessed). But 1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9). So they deny the consequences of sin in relation to their right standing with God (Making it seem like sin has no effect in regards to their salvation). They deny confessing sins so as to be forgiven because they already believe they have been forgiven for all time (In regards to their right standing with God). But wouldn’t God have to agree with this wrong way of salvation or sin in order for such a plan of salvation to work? Can God agree with sin? Surely not. For God is good and all His ways are righteous and holy.

Four, who is the “WE” in 1 John chapter 1? The word “we” is an impersonal generic reference to everyone. While John was writing to certain believers warning them about the false gnostics who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26), we have to realize that the “we” is talking to all men. Please take note that I just said “we” in this last past sentence (using in the same way that John does). The Bible was ultimately written to all men. So while there are many instances where one writer is talking to a specific people or person, we also have to realize that many times their message had a wider application to ALL of mankind because it was to be divinely inspired Holy Scripture to lead man to have a right relationship with God.

Here is one way of stating 1 John 1:8 in the KJV,

“If we say that we have no sin [when we do sin], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).​

Here is another way of saying it,

“If we say that we have no sin [in the sense that sin does not apply to us or that sin does not exist], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
(1 John 1:8).​

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God's love and peace always be upon you.

Side Note:
All words in brackets in blue is my commentary to Scripture.
Have a blessed day.
And take care.



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