Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

Hi John - yes, I struggle with this the most. I really believe God to be so amazingly wonderful that he devised a method of salvation that is so ingenious and perfect and brings us back to the time of Adam and Eve before the fall - that is: Jesus has restored us back to the perfect time when man and woman walked with God.

To believe that you can lose salvation over unrepented sins is to pray every day for every sin you can think of, just in case you thought/did something bad. Heck - better pray 3 times in case you die before your nightly prayer. Actually why not switch that to 5 times a day just in case you died in-between breakfast and lunch. Oops - now you're a religious "muslim".

I really believed I had a lovely relationship with my heavenly "Dad", and I had a security in that just like my children have a security in me. When I saw those youtube videos of "Christians in hell" because they lost salvation, it stole the joy of the Lord from me, and I became as fearful as muslims and other religious people who must earn their way to heaven. I no longer felt compelled to do good works because I loved God, I felt compelled to do good works because if I didn't I would go to hell. Now while that may be an inconvenient belief that I don't feel is right, doesn't mean it's false - that's why I want to discuss this. I am willing to explore the possibility I could be wrong.

If you can lose your salvation through unrepented sins you would have to be under law wouldn't you?

 

[CodyFaith]

You're confusing salvation with a false sense of what salvation is. Salvation is the gift of Eternal Life, and Eternal Life is this: "that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." Hence, Eternal Life is a "quality" of being, not merely existence without end. It is Life in Communion with God by the Holy Spirit. This quality of being is sustained only through obedience to God's will. One who chooses the sin of self-love over Love for God, whether in thought or in deed, chooses to reject Eternal Life. How can one who freely chooses love of self over Love for God be saved? They can't. They must repent and resist temptation, doing God's perfect will rather than their own fallen will. That is why the Lord teaches us that the Way is narrow, and few enter by it. It is also why He teaches that it is only by committing violence against one's selfish desires that those who lay hold of the Kingdom of Heaven do so (Matthew 11:12). It is also why He teaches us that it is only those who do the will of God who are saved. It is also why He will say to those "goat" Christians who chose not to obey God's will but strove to please only themselves, "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity..." It is also why those Apostles of His obeyed the will of God in all things, enduring every measure of discomfort, pain, risk of death, torture, persecution, slander, and for most all of them, being murdered. It is also why all true disciples to this day work hard, sacrifice much, endure great hardships, even being slandered and murdered. All of these children of God were not forced by God to suffer these things. They freely agreed to it, often (and especially at first), with great difficulty.

This gospel of easy, automatic salvation that many have liked to preach in the name of Christianity is not the same Gospel preached by Christ and instilled within the Apostolic Church of His Apostles. It is not the Tradition of the Apostles. When taken to an extreme it is a blatant lie about what salvation even is. Lies don't come from God. Christ tells us to make sure and keep our guard up at all times, lest we fall into some temptation and are found in a state of sin and corruption when He comes for us, in which case we will be cut off from Communion with God for eternity. The Apostle Paul wrote "I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.…" because he knew that only those who persevered until their end would spend eternity in blessed communion with God rather than with all the evil spirits in torments, because whosoever sins automatically submits themselves to bondage to Satan.

There is no help to those who really want to receive Eternal Life in the "once saved always saved" invention. It is an evil disguised in good (but most often false) feelings of security. It is a doctrine that mostly benefits demons in their quest to keep as many humans as they can from coming to know God through mystical Communion with Him in the Holy Spirit, Who shows us the Son, Who in turn reveals the Father.

We choose Communion and Life, over sin and spiritual blindness and death. "Choose" is what we must do, at all times and in every moment. This is Love.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[truefiction1]

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24 only seems to support the idea that belief in God alone and listening to Christ's message when all the other sayings of Christ are ignored, such as: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.", or something like this: "You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder!" (James 2:19)

So then, what is the will of the Father concerning us? It is as this: "For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

So then, what is this Eternal Life that the Father wills us to have? it is this: "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

So then, who are those who know the only true God, and Jesus Christ? They are those described as follows: "Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him." (John 14:21)

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18)

Christ's commandments are Love. They are purity and Light. They literally breath within the living Word of the New Testament Scriptures. Let's do the Father's will, make them our own, and Live:

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

 

[CodyFaith]

John 5:24 only seems to support the idea that belief in God alone and listening to Christ's message when all the other sayings of Christ are ignored, such as: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.", or something like this: "You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder!" (James 2:19)

So then, what is the will of the Father concerning us? It is as this: "For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

So then, what is this Eternal Life that the Father wills us to have? it is this: "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

So then, who are those who know the only true God, and Jesus Christ? They are those described as follows: "Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him." (John 14:21)

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18)

Christ's commandments are Love. They are purity and Light. They literally breath within the living Word of the New Testament Scriptures. Let's do the Father's will, make them our own, and Live:

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

What does passed from death unto life mean than in your view? Use it in context to the verse as well.

When does one pass from life unto death?

 

[truefiction1]

What does passed from death unto life mean than in your view? Use it in context to the verse as well.

When does one pass from life unto death?

When one knows God, and Jesus Christ.

 

[stuart lawrence]

When one knows God, and Jesus Christ.

One knows Christ when they are dead in sin:

But because of his great love for us God , who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions- it is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:4&5

 

[CodyFaith]

When one knows God, and Jesus Christ.

So do you believe you can have eternal life in this life?

Do you believe yourself to have eternal life (do you know Christ?) If you did achieve it, how did you achieve it?

Is this a typical Eastern Orthodox belief?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

Seems to me, both sides do just as you are saying only the opposing side does. It concerns me right off the bat here, that you don't see that.

The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell,

I'm sure of it.

Thank-you for your reply. The argument "To use a hypothetical, can somebody profess faith in Our Lord's sacrifice on Sunday, abuse drugs on Monday, rape people on Tuesday, kill people on Wednesday, sell guns to children on Thursday, download kiddie porn on Friday, repent of none of those things on Saturday, die on the following Sunday and reasonably expect to go to Heaven?"

Very few will answer a flat out yes to that, but I've heard some do just that.

I would ask, do you expect a reasonable person to accept your "hypothetical" as a reasonable hypothetical? Do you actually know a person such as in your hypothetical, or, does this person only exist in your imagination?

And there it is...no answer. I've know people who do close enough to that hypothetical to say yes to that...it absolutely is not my imagination. The one I have in mind, and it's no one from this board before I am wrongly reported and given warning. that particular person (and there are more) has a christian "christian" belief "You can do what you wanna do" Direct quote.

Those who cannot see how dangerous it is to do and teach that, could very well be one of the ones whom I speak of, or that have deceived themselves.

BTW, the classic answer to that hypothetical is, "Well, I'd doubt if they are even christian or not, then" which has nothing to do with the question, if for no other reason, they think they are Christian and that is the basis of the danger of teaching this.

That answer is also just to avoid a yes or no answer.

Once again, to be clear, I am speaking in general, and not saying anyone on CF is not Christian. I make that point for a very good reason, one I am probably not allowed to go into.

 

[truefiction1]

So do you believe you can have eternal life in this life?

Do you believe yourself to have eternal life (do you know Christ?) If you did achieve it, how did you achieve it?

Is this a typical Eastern Orthodox belief?

Yes, we know that we can have Eternal Life in this life. It is achieved only by “repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Acts 20:21) This is how I achieve it.

 

[truefiction1]

Salvation (Eternal Life) is True repentance and True faith:

“Repent, and believe in the gospel”, we are told by the Gospel. What a simple, true, and holy command! We must repent, leave behind our sinful life, before we become capable of approaching the Gospels. In order to accept the Gospel, we have to believe in it.

The Apostle Paul considered the essence of the preaching of Christ to be the message of repentance and faith. He testified to everyone, both Jew and Gentiles of, “repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Gospel, as the revelation of God, is higher than any achievement, remaining inconceivable for fallen human reason. The inconceivable wisdom of God is only conceived by faith, because faith can accept everything that is impossible for reason and that even contradicts reason. Only the soul that willfully rejects sin and directs all of its willpower and strength to divine good is capable of faith.

“I have come as a light into the world,” said the Lord. This light came to the Jews clothed in flesh; before us, he stands clothed in the Gospels.

This light comes before us, “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.”

Who does not believe in the Son of God? Not only he who openly, assuredly rejects Him but also he who, while calling himself a Christian, leads a sinful life, rushes around after pleasures of the world, whose god is his stomach, whose god is gold and silver, whose god is earthly glory, who honors earthly wisdom, antagonistic to God, as god himself. “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God”

Without self-denial a person is not capable of faith; his fallen reason fights against faith, demanding an answer of God in all His actions and proof of His revealed truths. The fallen heart wants to live the life of the fallen, which faith strives to mortify. Flesh and blood, ignoring the constant presence of death all around it, wants to live its own life – the life of death and sin.

This is why the Lord told all who desire to follow Him with living faith: “If any one desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”

The fall has become so assimilated to the essence of all mankind that rejection of the fall has become tantamount to rejection of our very life. Without such self-denial it is impossible to acquire faith, which is the pledge of eternal, blessed, spiritual life. Whoever wants to enliven the passions of his heart or body and to gain pleasure from them, whoever wants to enliven his fallen reason, he will fall away from faith.

Living faith is walking into the spiritual world, the world of God. It cannot exist in a person who is nailed to the cross of the world, ruled by flesh and sin.

Faith is the door to God. There is no other door to him: “without faith it is impossible to please [God].” This door opens only slowly before the one who purifies himself with constant repentance; it is open widely only before the pure heart; it is shut for the lover of sin.

Only through faith can one approach Christ; only through faith can one follow Christ.

Faith is a natural quality of the human soul, planted in man at the creation by the merciful God. This natural quality is chosen by God during the course of redemption as the branch through which to graft grace back onto fallen man.

God wisely chose faith as the tool of mankind’s salvation, for we perished by believing the flattery of the enemy of God and mankind. A long time ago, the noise of his evil words was heard in Eden, and our forefathers listened and believed, and were cast out of Eden. Now, in the land of our exile, their descendants hear the voice of the Word of God, the Gospels, and once again those who listen and believe in it can enter paradise.

You who do not believe! Turn away from your lack of faith! Sinner! Reject your sinful life! Wise man! Deny your false wisdom! Turn to God! With your goodness and lack of evil, you will become like children, and with childlike simplicity you will believe in the Gospel.

Dead faith, or confessing Christ merely out of unwilling necessity, is something that the demons are capable of! Such a faith will only add to a person’s greater condemnation at the judgment of Christ. The unclean spirit cried out to the Lord: “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know who You are – the Holy One of God!” Faith in the Gospels must be living; one must believe with the mind and the heart, confess the faith with one’s lips, and express and prove it with one’s life. “Show me your faith without your works!” Thus, the Apostle James addresses the one who boasts of his dead faith, with only the bare knowledge of the existence of God.

“Faith”, said St Simeon the New Theologian, “in the full sense of this word contains in itself all of the divine commandments of Christ. It is stamped with the assuredness, that there is not a single part of the commandments that has no meaning, that all of them, until the very last iota, are the life and reason for eternal life.” -- St Ignatius Brianchaninov

 

[Neogaia777]

Who can judge another's life and what or where/when they should be there/here, ect...? As far as with sins, or their spiritual progress...? Who can even judge this in their own, but God alone...?

This is why were really not getting anywhere discussing this...? Cause only God alone knows and can judge, we cannot even do it for our very own selves, let alone someone else's... It's between them and God alone, not any human being, not even yourself...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you can lose your salvation through unrepented sins you would have to be under law wouldn't you?

So does that mean you are not under this following Law or Command?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."
(1 John 3:23).​

This law or commandment says we should believe on the name .... Jesus Christ.

Surely one cannot have salvation without this, right?

So if you are not under this law (Seeng you are not under any Law salvation wise), does that mean you believe in Universal Salvationism?

Side Note:

Also, when Paul said we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14), he meant that we are not under the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Old Covenant Laws as a whole) and he was not referencing how we are not under any kind of law whatsoever. If you were to look at the surrounding text or chapters every time the word "law" appears, you would see that Paul made reference to things that were a part of the Old Testament like circumcision, etc. However, Christians today look to the New Testament to obey God. For there is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12), and the Royal Law (James 2:8). Now, yes. It is true. We are under grace. But grace is not a license to sin nor is it a means to treat sin lightly. For serious sin has always been separation between God and man (Even starting back in the Garden of Eden). Oh, and before you say it, not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are serious sins like murder, hate, adultery, lying, coveting, idolatry, and theft; They are sins that lead to the Second Death (a.k.a. the Lake of Fire) if they are not repented of (See Revelation 21:8) (2 Peter 3:9). Sins not unto death are sins that would not cause one's soul to face death (i.e. to be destroyed); They are sins like not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), boasting in each other and causing divisions in the body (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).



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[stuart lawrence]

So does that mean you are not under this following Law or Command?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."
(1 John 3:23).​

This law or commandment says we should believe on the name .... Jesus Christ.

Surely one cannot have salvation without this, right?

So if you are not under this law (Seeng you are not under any Law salvation wise), does that mean you believe in Universal Salvationism?

Side Note:

When Paul said we are not under the Law, he meant that we are not under the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Old Covenant Laws as a whole) and he was not referencing how we are not under any kind of law whatseover. Christians today look to the New Testament to obey God. Now, yes. It is true. We are under grace. But grace is not a license to sin nor is it a means to treat sin lightly. For serious sin has always been separation between God and man (Even starting back in the Garden of Eden). Oh, and before you say it, not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are serious sins like murder, hate, adultery, lying, coveting, idolatry, and theft; They are sins that lead to the Second Death (a.k.a. the Lake of Fire) if they are not repented of (See Revelation 21:8) (2 Peter 3:9). Sins not unto death are sins like not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), boasting in each other and causing divisions in the body (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).



....

Of course no one can be a christian unless they believe the Son of God died for their sins at Calvary.
And the christian is called to love others. However, as we all fall short of the standard set, how could we attain heaven by being under the law?

Would you like to answer the question now in the post you responded to?

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Ten Commandments are an inflexible law. There is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to them that will entitle you to enter heaven. Perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them. There is nothing in those commands that speak of mercy or forgiveness

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who can judge another's life and what or where/when they should be there/here, ect...? As far as with sins, or their spiritual progress...? Who can even judge this in their own, but God alone...?

This is why were really not getting anywhere discussing this...? Cause only God alone knows and can judge, we cannot even do it for our very own selves, let alone someone else's... It's between them and God alone, not any human being, not even yourself...

God Bless!

There is a difference between judging wrong doctrine and judging a person's salvation.

The Bible says,

9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed" (2 John 1:9-10).​

This of course was said in context to the following,

4 "I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it." (2 John 1:4-6).​

In other words, actions speak louder than words.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Who can judge another's life and what or where/when they should be there/here, ect...? As far as with sins, or their spiritual progress...? Who can even judge this in their own, but God alone...?

This is why were really not getting anywhere discussing this...? Cause only God alone knows and can judge, we cannot even do it for our very own selves, let alone someone else's... It's between them and God alone, not any human being, not even yourself...

God Bless!

Sadly some believe they have attained a holiness that entitles them to point the finger at others.
They actually revel in others imperfections, for it gives them added assurance they will attain heaven by being good enough for God

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course no one can be a christian unless they believe the Son of God died for their sins at Calvary.
And the christian is called to love others. However, as we all fall short of the standard set, how could we attain heaven by being under the law?

Would you like to answer the question now in the post you responded to?

The point you are ignoring is that you are under some kind of law. Unless of course you believe you are not under the law mentioned in 1 John 3:23. You can keep go around and around in circles on this one, but you are going to have the face the truth of it someday.

1 John 3:23 = Law or a Commandment necessary for salvation.
Paul says we are not under Law - Romans 6:14.
Conclusion: Paul was talking about a different Law in Romans 6:14 than the Law mentioned in 1 John 3:23. If not, then there is a contradiction.
Do you get it?

Anyways, to answer your question ("Are you under the Law"?) in context to what Paul says, .... "no." For I am not under the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Old Covenant Commands as a whole or package deal). If you are asking if I am under some kind of Law? Yes. I am under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12), the Royal Law (James 2:8) and the law mentioned in 1 John 3:23. Are you not under these laws?


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

The point you are ignoring is that you are under some kind of law. Unless of course you believe you are not under the law mentioned in 1 John 3:23. You can keep go around and around in circles on this one, but you are going to have the face the truth on it.

1 John 3:23 = Law or a Commandment necessary for salvation.
Paul says we are not under Law - Romans 6:14.
Conclusion: Paul was talking about a different Law in Romans 6:14 than the Law mentioned in 1 John 3:23. If not, then there is a contradiction.
Do you get it?

Anyways, to answer your question in context to what Paul says, .... "no." For I am not under the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Old Covenant Commands as a whole or package deal). If you are asking if I am under some kind of Law? Yes. I am under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12), the Royal Law (James 2:8) and the law mentioned in 1 John 3:23. Are you not under these laws?


...

Please answer the question.
If unrepentant sin can send you to hell, wouldn't this have to mean the christian is under law, yes or no.

The bible states the christian has righteousness APART from law. It DOESNT say apart from SOME law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sadly some believe they have attained a holiness that entitles them to point the finger at others. They actually revel in others imperfections, for it gives them added assurance they will attain heaven by being good enough for God

No finger pointng. Jesus is the source of a person's righteousness and He deserves all the glory, honor, and power, and praise. Jesus is the source of our Justification and Sanctification. For it is God that works within us.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please answer the question.
If unrepentant sin can send you to hell, wouldn't this have to mean the christian is under law, yes or no.

The bible states the christian has righteousness APART from law. It DOESNT say apart from SOME law

The Old Testament Law was not just .... some law.
Oh, and yes; I have already answered your question in Post #237.


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