Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[truefiction1]

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10

Rom 10:
2 I can testify about them (the salvation by works Christians) that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."
6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 "or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

So I see, given the meaning of these sayings in the Word of God, that you agree that ongoing faith and repentance, with confession (=by one's belief turning away from fulfilling one's own selfish will and keeping Christ's commandments so that one comes to know and confess Him) are what brings a person to salvation. Because this is what these verses of Scripture are saying. Why didn't you include any of the Lord's sayings that give us instructions for things we must do if we want to receive eternal Life? By not doing so, it becomes possible to strip the above referenced verses of their full and True meaning, thereby falsifying them. I don't advise ever doing that. I advise repentance without end, because that is the Way that the Lord preached. Do you also advise repentance without end? Do you also advise keeping Christ's commandments, as He instructs us to do?

 

[bcbsr]

So I see, given the meaning of these sayings in the Word of God, that you agree that ongoing faith and repentance, with confession (=by one's belief turning away from fulfilling one's own selfish will and keeping Christ's commandments so that one comes to know and confess Him) are what brings a person to salvation. Because this is what these verses of Scripture are saying. Why didn't you include any of the Lord's sayings that give us instructions for things we must do if we want to receive eternal Life? By not doing so, it becomes possible to strip the above referenced verses of their full and True meaning, thereby falsifying them. I don't advise ever doing that. I advise repentance without end, because that is the Way that the Lord preached. Do you also advise repentance without end? Do you also advise keeping Christ's commandments, as He instructs us to do?

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

Why didn't the Lord include any rules, regulations, laws, commands upon which salvation is contingent? Because there aren't any.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Matt 13:21 But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.

They believe, but then later fall away. He does not say they did not really believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I tried to find the verses that talk about blotting out, and it seems to say the opposite of what you claim:
Revelation 3:5-6 New International Version (NIV)

5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. 6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The verse in Exodus 32:33:
33The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

appears to be referring to a living book: those who sin against me will be physically killed. It is not the same as "the book of life" of Revelations which is a book of salvation. Compare with Ps 69:28 where David is hoping his enemies are killed.

Well, let's take a look at the whole of Scripture, my friend.

Exodus 32:31-34 says,

31 "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if you will forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray you, out of your book which you have written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto you: behold, my Angel shall go before you: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them."​

In this passage, we understand that by sinning, we can be blotted out God's book of the living. No doubt, Moses was afraid for his fellow Israelite's lives because they committed idolatry. So if this book is to suggest that their lives were taken, it would also include their judgment of dying in their sins (with no salvation), too. How so? Well, if Moses knew that their souls would be saved and safe in the arms of the Lord if they died physically, he would not have laid down his own soul on the line to save them. For Moses, like many others see things from an eternal perspective and not from a fleshy carnal perspective that is temporary (See Hebrews 11:25).

Psalms 69:28 says,

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous"​

From this verse we understand that certain people can be blotted out of the book of the living in which the righteous are listed. This is an important verse to take note of because it is not some recorded book of the living of those who lived in the city of Jerusalem. How so? Well, because it says it is a book where the righteous are listed.

Isaiah 4:3 says,

"And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is recorded among the living in Jerusalem."​

Here in this verse it possible to read this text as either being a physical record of the living or a book of the living righteous saints in Jerusalem. It could be a heavenly book (scroll) because the verse itself describes this as a possible time during the Millennium. For it says "that he that is left in Zion, and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called holy,"

The Bible says, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Philippians 4:3 says,

"And I entreat you also, true yokefellow, help those women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other of my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life."​

In this verse, we understand that the laborers in Christ (not those believers who do not labor) are the type of saints that have their names written in the book of life. This is important to understand because God's Word says elsewhere,

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

But what of the unprofitable servant?
Well, the Bible says,

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

Revelation 3:5 says,

"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white clothing; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels"​

In this verse we understand that person who overcomes, the Lord will not be blot out his name from the book of life. Jesus will confess his name before His Father and before His angels.

But is there a scenario where Jesus will not confess a person's name before the Father? Yes, Jesus also says,

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38).

This is in context to Jesus also saying, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:35-36).

And John says,

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." (1 John 2:15).

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" (1 John 5:4).

Are you loving the world and the things within it?
Are you overcoming the world?
He that overcomes is the type of person who has their name written in the book of life.

Also, we understand from Revelation 3:5 that he that overcomes shall be clothed in white clothing, too. What does Scripture say about this?

Revelation 19:8 says,
"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Here in this verse we see that the fine linen that is on the saints represents the righteousness of the saints.

What is one way the Bible describes righteousness?

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (1 John 3:7).

So doing righteousness makes one righteous according to John.

Now, why is it important to know that the "bride" (Revelation 19:7) has on fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints? (Revelation 19:8). Well, the Parable of the Wedding Banquet tells us that those who do not have on a wedding garment (Which is a picture of the righteousness of the saints) will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

12 "And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:12-13).

Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do.

See this image here by clicking on the following spoiler button:

Spoiler

Revelation 13:4, Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 says,

Chapter 13:
4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, ..."
8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Chapter 17:
8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is"​

Here we learn that those who worship the dragon and the beast are excluded among those of the whole world whereby Christ is the propitiation for their sins (See 1 John 2:2). Why? Because their names were not written in the Lamb's book of Life since the foundation of the world. That is how serious their sin will be. Those who will worship the beast in the future never even had a chance at salvation because God knows that their hearts are especially dark or hard against Him to do such a horrible thing. Please take note that I am not in support of Calvinism here. God gives free will to everyone. They could have chosen Him, but they simply did not choose the Lord. God is simply aware of all of man's free will choices (and all men will be held accountable by what they do).

Revelation 20:12 and Revelation 20:15 says,

12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."​

To help get a clearer picture of what is going on, here is a chronology of the "Judgment" that I made with Scripture in my End Times Chronology here at CF.

Anyways, we learn from verse 12 that the dead will be judged according to their works. This is confirmed in Romans 2:5-7 that says,

5 "...God;"
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:" (Romans 2:6-7).

Did you catch that? It says God will render to every man according to his deeds. But to them who by patience that continue in well doing seek immortality and eternal life. So I do not see a "sin and still be saved" type gospel being taught here within the Scriptures.

As for verse 15, it says whosever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 21:8 tells us clearly that "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire..." Did you catch it? Revelation 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John makes no mention of another group of liars who will be saved that are believers. So yes. Sin does separate a believer from God, unless they repent (of course).

Revelation 21:2 and Revelation 21:27 says,

2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, ..."

27 "And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they who are written in the Lamb's book of life."​

Here in verse 27 of Revelation 21, we learn that nothing can enter the holy city of Jerusalem that defiles, works abominiation (sin), or makes a lie. But who can? Those whose names are written in the book of life can enter. So this tells us that those whose names are written in the book of life are NOT those who defiles themselves or those who work abominations, or who lies.

Revelation 22:19 says,

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."​

Okay, this is pretty clear in letting us know salvation is conditional. If a person were to take away the words of the book of this prophecy (Whether you believe that is the book of Revelation or the Bible), God wil take away their name out of the book of life.

So in Conclusion:

There is a book of life that is from the foundation of the world.
All who are born (except for those who worship the beast) are written in this book long before they were born (This is further supported by the fact that babies who die automatically go to be with Jesus).
So this means that one's name is not originally written in the book of life the moment they repent of their sins. Names can blotted out because of sin. For when a baby grows up and becomes an adult and they fall into sin, they need to repent of their sins and become born again spiritually to be saved again. This is yet another proof that "sin can potentially separate a saved person from God." (Note: The life of a person is sort of like the Parable of the Prodigal Son).


Inspired from the following article source:
Who was blotted out of which book in Exodus 32:33?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said that to that man, because that's what he believed,

No. Jesus does not entertain false ideas. That is just silly. No such verse in the Bible says that Jesus said this to the rich young ruler as a way of entertaining his false belief system. Jesus always spoke the truth.

not to point out that works salvation was the way, but, that it wasn't... But, the man said he had kept all those, instead of acknowledging the truth that he hadn't and couldn't, which was what Jesus was "fishing" for...

Jesus cut to the chase and He finally told the man, that man in particular, what had a hold on his heart, that particular man's real source, of trust, reliance, faith, and belief, cause it was not God, when He told him to sell all that he owned, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow him... Jesus already knew the man would not be able to do that as well, but the man went away from Jesus in tears...

If the man, would have told and spoke with Jesus about the fact that he couldn't do it, Jesus might have been able to do more with him, if he would have admitted the truth that he could not achieve perfection on his own, or in his own self effort, and asked Jesus, something to the effect "I can't do it Lord... What do I do about that Lord?" And Jesus might have been able to do more with the man, but we all must first admit this fact before he can, or perhaps, even will, and go to him about it...

God Bless!

Actually, what you said above here does not exist within the Scriptures. It's a nice fantasy, but there is no verse or passage in the Bible that says what you just said here. Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

Anyways, the lesson of the Story of the Rich Young Ruler is four fold in it's meaning (According to the Bible).

#1. A Richman cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is why Jesus said to put your treasures in Heaven instead of here upon this Earth. In fact, the truth that a believer cannot be rich is confirmed by 1 Timothy 6 that says,
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
(1 Timothy 6:9-11).
This is why the rich young ruler went away said. He was not willing to do what was necessary in order to be a true follower of Jesus.​

#2. There is none good but God.

Jesus said there is none good but God. Does this mean that the richman could not do good? Well, yes and no. By the rich young ruler's own power, he could not do good alone. However, by the power of God (or Christ), the rich young ruler could do good by allowing God or Christ to work thru His life (See John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13).​

#3. With God, nothing is impossible.

Many times I hear Christians tell me that no believer can stop sinning in this life. But does not the Scriptures say that, "with God all things are possible"? Does not Paul say, "Sin shall not have dominion over you."? Does not Paul say, "We are slaves to righteousness."? Did not Jesus say, "He that sins is a slave to sin?" 1 Peter 4:1 says, he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. David says in Psalms 119:11 that he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. Jesus said to two people to "sin no more." The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5). So yes. With God, all things are possible (Including in not being a slave to sin anymore). There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it. (1 Corinthians 10:13).​

#4. Sanctification is a part of the Process of Salvation.

The rich young ruler asked, what must he do to inherit eternal life? Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the Commandments. Jesus was not lying here. 1 John 3:23 is a command that says we are to believe on Jesus. Are we to assume that we are not under this command because we are not under the Law? No. Paul many times referenced the Law of Moses and not all law whatsoever. The rich young ruler asked which commands he should obey? Jesus listed certain moral laws. The rich ruler said he obeyed these. But Jesus found that the rich young ruler was lacking one thing in following Him. His riches were getting in the way! Money. He loved his money more than Jesus. That is why the rich ruler went away sad. For actions speak louder than words!​

But again, am I proposing Man Directed Works Salvationism?

No.

I am proposing God directed works Salvationism.
For it is God or Christ that works thru us (John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You use this term "man directed works salvation" vs "God directed works salvation". What is the functional difference? Thanks.

Well, who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit from the Lord (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Matt 13:21 But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.

They believe, but then later fall away. He does not say they did not really believe.

Which is talking about that they do not root themselves spiritually in the vine.

 

[Aldebaran]

#1. A Richman cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is why Jesus said to put your treasures in Heaven instead of here upon this Earth. In fact, the truth that a believer cannot be rich is confirmed by 1 Timothy 6 that says,
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
(1 Timothy 6:9-11).
This is why the rich young ruler went away said. He was not willing to do what was necessary in order to be a true follower of Jesus.​

I have to take issue with this statement. There were plenty of rich people in the bible who were Godly. King David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathaea who provided the tomb for Jesus, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Hezekiah, Job, etc.

None of these people were condemned for their wealth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can I ask you non-OSAS believers a question?

Do you believe by not giving "enough" monetary offerings to God, you can lose salvation? Not giving enough "offerings" is not in any list that says you will go to hell if it happens, and yet many "visions" that testify that Christians go to hell on youtube said it was because Christians didn't give enough "tithes and offerings".

I do not believe tithes are for Christians, here is the thread on that:
Biblical Tithe was about Food not money

Which is why it's confusing to me how we can be judged for not doing something that the NT never said that believers should do in the first place? (we are to give "offerings", but not "tithes").

The Old Covenant Laws are no longer binding anymore.
For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
This means that the Old Covenant Law on tithing does not apply to the church. This law only applied to Israel (in the past).
Only the Commands in the New Testament now apply.

The New Covenant Law on giving to the body of believers says,

2 Corinthians 9:7 says,

"Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver."​

In other words, we are to give what we have purposed in our heart to give. There is no more mandatory tithe giving. But giving is a natural outflow as believers. This does not have to be givng money to a specific church. You can simply provide financial support to a missionary family that you know who is going to travel soon to another country to spread the gospel or you can buy comic book tracts and hand them out (Also supporting the tract company that does God's work - like chick.com).

The only case in the Bible where I see that not giving to others is a really bad thing for one's soul is in Matthew 25. It says,

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not."
(Matthew 25:34-43).

Again, is this salvation by works? No. One is merely choosing to allow Christ to flow thru them or not. Also, if we slip up in not helping the poor, and suffering and we can get our hearts right with God by repenting of such a sin. We can be clean by the blood of Jesus if we confess such a sin to Him. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightouesness (1 John 1:9). Were we forgiven of our sin by going out and doing more works? No. We can only get clean by Jesus. That is why salvation is not ultimately works. But a true saving faith that is true is proven to be true by it's works because it shows that Christ lives within a person (Who is the source of a person's life - 1 John 5:12).



...

 

[ToBeLoved]

The only case in the Bible where I see that not giving to others is a really bad thing for one's soul is in Matthew 25. It says,

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not."
(Matthew 25:34-43).
...

I'll comment quickly on this section of scripture.

This is not about tithing but about when Jesus tells us to help the poor and the widows, ect. And that what we do for the least of these (poor, widows, orphans, homeless, ect) that we do for Jesus.

So this is explaining that concept, that Christ expects us to give to those less fortunate because He tells us what we do for these people, we have done for Him. We are considered the righteous since we will have followed what the Lord asks of us as shown love and compassion to others as He has shown love, compassion, mercy and grace to us.

 

[1John2:4]

Hebrews 10:26

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have to take issue with this statement. There were plenty of rich people in the bible who were Godly. King David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathaea who provided the tomb for Jesus, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Hezekiah, Job, etc.

None of these people were condemned for their wealth.

First, we need some Bible verses to see the context of what is truly going on with these men of God (Instead of just statements about what we think about them). Second, even if these men were wealthy in the Old Testament, that is not the New Testament way. Things have changed under the New Covenant. New Testament believers do not sacrifice animals to a priest anymore. New Testament believers are to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye. New Testament believers can now eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law). Jesus was changing things. For the Scriptures say that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12); And Jesus said that where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Where is your treasure today? Is it in Heaven or is it here upon this Earth? Surely, when a person is rich and says that they are not gathering treasure here upon this Earth is simply lying. For a person hoards that thing they like.

But what about Joseph of Arimathaea? Was Joseph of Arimathaea rich and a disciple? Well, the Scriptures do not say the state of Joseph''s salvation.

But what does 1 Timothy 6 charge them that are rich?

17 "Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."

We see that the rich are charged that they must be willing to distribute. Why? So that they may lay hold on eternal life. In other words, Joseph must have given away much of his wealth already and laid up a good foundation in order to be one of Christ's disciples. For Jesus said to the rich young ruler that he needed to sell all his possessions if he wanted to be perfect. Jesus then said after to the rich young ruler that if he would have done this, that He could then follow Him. Jesus did not say He could follow Him and still hold onto his possessions and be rich. This is why the rich young ruler went away sad. For if Jesus let Joseph be rich, then he would have to go back and apologize to the rich young ruler in whom he did not allow in being rich.

In other words, the Scriptures were describing how the world knew Joseph of his past life. That does not mean he still was living in his past life. For the thief on the cross was a called a thief, but that does not mean he was still desiring to be a thief after meeting Jesus on the cross. The thief admitted his wrong before the Lord and asked that He be remembered when Christ came into His Kingdom. In fact, people today still call him the thief on the cross. But the difference here is that he is not a thief after meeting Jesus. It is merely a decription of his past life. That does not mean he was planning to steal if he was rescued miraculously from his situation.

Also, just because somebody is called a disciple does not mean they are saved. Was Judas saved when he committed suicide? Were the many disciples saved at the point they decided to walk away from Jesus? Surely not.


....

 

[Aldebaran]

First, we need some Bible verses to see the context of what is truly going on with these men of God (Instead of just statements about what we think about them). Second, even if these men were wealthy in the Old Testament, that is not the New Testament way. Things have changed under the New Covenant. New Testament believers do not sacrifice animals to a priest anymore. New Testament believers are to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye. New Testament believers can now eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law). Jesus was changing things. For the Scriptures say that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12); And Jesus said that where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Where is your treasure today? Is it in Heaven or is it here upon this Earth? Surely, when a person is rich and says that they are not gathering treasure here upon this Earth is simply lying. For a person hoards that thing they like.

The main point I was trying to make is that none of the people listed in the OT that were rich were made to give away all their wealth in order to be in favor with God. As a matter of fact, their wealth was mentioned in the context of how blessed by God they were. Job had quite a bit, and then after being tested, God doubled all that he had. Solomon was blessed with wealth after asking for wisdom and pleased God by doing so in that He awarded Solomon with wealth as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'll comment quickly on this section of scripture.

This is not about tithing but about when Jesus tells us to help the poor and the widows, ect. And that what we do for the least of these (poor, widows, orphans, homeless, ect) that we do for Jesus.

So this is explaining that concept, that Christ expects us to give to those less fortunate because He tells us what we do for these people, we have done for Him. We are considered the righteous since we will have followed what the Lord asks of us as shown love and compassion to others as He has shown love, compassion, mercy and grace to us.

First, tithing does not exist anymore.
Second, giving to help God's people ,while optional (according to 2 Corinthians 9:7) is wonderful because God loves a cheerful giver.

Three, helping the poor by feeding them, giving them drink, or clothing them is the context of Matthew 25. This obviously takes money on your part in some cases so as to be able to do this (Unless you rely on others to help you to give). In either case, Matthew 25 says that not helping the poor has dire consequences for one's soul if they do not help them in this life.

Ministering to the poor is similar to ministering to your fellow brethren. It's all rolled up into... "love your neighbor."


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The main point I was trying to make is that none of the people listed in the OT that were rich were made to give away all their wealth in order to be in favor with God. As a matter of fact, their wealth was mentioned in the context of how blessed by God they were. Job had quite a bit, and then after being tested, God doubled all that he had. Solomon was blessed with wealth after asking for wisdom and pleased God by doing so in that He awarded Solomon with wealth as well.

Again, two different covenants. In the Old Covenant, God commanded His people to destroy enemy nations. That is not the case today with His church under the New Covenant. Also, please check out the wealth of Job and Solomon. Was their having wealth in the end a good thing or a blessing?


...

 

[Aldebaran]

Again, two different covenants. In the Old Covenant, God commanded His people to destroy enemy nations. That is not the case today with His church under the New Covenant. Also, please check out the wealth of Job and Solomon. Was their having wealth in the end a good thing or a blessing?


...

It's not about covenants. We're talking about the fact that these righteous people were wealthy and were not condemned for it. As for whether it was a good or bad thing in the end--in Job's case, it was neither. He had it in the first place, then lost it when God tested him, and then gained it back twofold when he pleased God by passing the test. So it didn't turn out to be a good or bad thing, but rather a thing God blessed him with as a result of his being faithful.

As for Solomon, it was once again given to him by God because God was pleased with him. That's a good thing in my book.

 

[ToBeLoved]

First, tithing does not exist anymore.
Second, giving to help God's people ,while optional (according to 2 Corinthians 9:7) is wonderful because God loves a cheerful giver.

Three, helping the poor by feeding them, giving them drink, or clothing them is the context of Matthew 25. This obviously takes money on your part in some cases so as to be able to do this (Unless you rely on others to help you to give). In either case, Matthew 25 says that not helping the poor has dire consequences for one's soul if they do not help them in this life.

Ministering to the poor is similar to ministering to your fellow brethren. It's all rolled up into... "love your neighbor."


...

You were answering someone else's question that was about tithing and you wrote down some scripture. I was only explaining that that verse was not about tithing at all. That's it. Very simple.

I was not saying whether tithing still exists, because it does not. I was saying that verse and verses was not about tithing.

 

[Neogaia777]

No. Jesus does not entertain false ideas. That is just silly. No such verse in the Bible says that Jesus said this to the rich young ruler as a way of entertaining his false belief system. Jesus always spoke the truth.

It was not a false belief system, it is the first step in the right belief system...

Actually, what you said above here does not exist within the Scriptures. It's a nice fantasy, but there is no verse or passage in the Bible that says what you just said here. Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

Really? Jesus did not say to the man to sell all he had and follow after him? I think he did...

Anyways, the lesson of the Story of the Rich Young Ruler is four fold in it's meaning (According to the Bible).

#1. A Richman cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is why Jesus said to put your treasures in Heaven instead of here upon this Earth. In fact, the truth that a believer cannot be rich is confirmed by 1 Timothy 6 that says,
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
(1 Timothy 6:9-11).
This is why the rich young ruler went away said. He was not willing to do what was necessary in order to be a true follower of Jesus.​

#2. There is none good but God.

Jesus said there is none good but God. Does this mean that the richman could not do good? Well, yes and no. By the rich young ruler's own power, he could not do good alone. However, by the power of God (or Christ), the rich young ruler could do good by allowing God or Christ to work thru His life (See John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13).​

#3. With God, nothing is impossible.

Many times I hear Christians tell me that no believer can stop sinning in this life. But does not the Scriptures say that, "with God all things are possible"? Does not Paul say, "Sin shall not have dominion over you."? Does not Paul say, "We are slaves to righteousness."? Did not Jesus say, "He that sins is a slave to sin?" 1 Peter 4:1 says, he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. David says in Psalms 119:11 that he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. Jesus said to two people to "sin no more." The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5). So yes. With God, all things are possible (Including in not being a slave to sin anymore). There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it. (1 Corinthians 10:13).​

#4. Sanctification is a part of the Process of Salvation.

The rich young ruler asked, what must he do to inherit eternal life? Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the Commandments. Jesus was not lying here. 1 John 3:23 is a command that says we are to believe on Jesus. Are we to assume that we are not under this command because we are not under the Law? No. Paul many times referenced the Law of Moses and not all law whatsoever. The rich young ruler asked which commands he should obey? Jesus listed certain moral laws. The rich ruler said he obeyed these. But Jesus found that the rich young ruler was lacking one thing in following Him. His riches were getting in the way! Money. He loved his money more than Jesus. That is why the rich ruler went away sad. For actions speak louder than words!​

But again, am I proposing Man Directed Works Salvationism?

No.

I am proposing God directed works Salvationism.
For it is God or Christ that works thru us (John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13).

Which proved to the man that he was not keeping the law and was lying, he had money as an idol, and he was lying about it or bearing false witness...

None of us is or can be perfect or perfectly keep the law, no reason though not to have it as aim, target, or goal though... Those who think they can or are are liars... Which is bearing false witness, which is breaking the law...

Jesus wanted to eliminate money as and idol or god in the man's heart...

Jesus would have worked with the man more and further and in greater detail if he had not gone away from him...

The law is a first step, and the point of it at first is for us to admit we have and do fall short of keeping it, then we go though a "process", notice I said it is a process and does not happen overnight, if it happens in full at all, we go through or enter into a lifelong process of trying to attain to the laws standard, with God's help, and not without it, which is another point of it, that we cannot do it on our own, or through self-effort alone, we "need" God, and his assistance and help in our lives...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's not about covenants. We're talking about the fact that these righteous people were wealthy and were not condemned for it. As for whether it was a good or bad thing in the end--in Job's case, it was neither. He had it in the first place, then lost it when God tested him, and then gained it back twofold when he pleased God by passing the test. So it didn't turn out to be a good or bad thing, but rather a thing God blessed him with as a result of his being faithful.

As for Solomon, it was once again given to him by God because God was pleased with him. That's a good thing in my book.

Do you believe we still sacrifice animals to a priest?
Do you believe in the prosperity gospel?


...

 

[truefiction1]

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

Why didn't the Lord include any rules, regulations, laws, commands upon which salvation is contingent? Because there aren't any.

The Lord does give commandments, and teaches that only those persons who keep them are known by God. These verses posted above don't contradict the Lord's teaching that we must keep His commandments if we are to receive Eternal Life, because only those who, by faith, repent of sin and confess Christ, truly believe in Him. This is what the whole Gospel teaches. To repent is to reject all sin within yourself and to do the perfect will of God rather than one's own sinful will. Those who believe they are saved while not repenting and keeping Christ's commandments are deceived, being among those who have tried to enter by the wide way, which leads to perdition. Within all of Christendom, there are always very few who truly believe in and confess Christ.