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And you're simply ignoring what it says.
Why even bother replying?
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And you're simply ignoring what it says.
Once saved, always saved, is a lie. We have to do our bit. How? By living a sin free life.
It's not just talking about a particular case. John speaks of a universal principle:
For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us;
If we could live free of sin? Then Jesus did not have to die on the Cross. If you could not sin? Then what was the Cross for? A publicity stunt?
Any one who thinks that is how we are saved does not understand many aspects of our condition that we must endure and buffer by grace and truth until we receive our resurrection bodies.
That's talking about a group that went apostate.. Not about losing salvation.
If your church had a split? That would means some are no longer saved?
If we could lose our salvation? Then no one is really saved.
Only saved if he dies and did not fail to keep it. Keep what?
How can you be saved if you must save yourself?
That's how Islam thinks about salvation.
all this "sounds "very convincing "- but only because you've collected together the favorite texts and omitted so many other texts .if you post them both together in their context it become seen that the whole honest picture is not being presented in this post .I, along with many of us, disagree. John teaches us that those leaving the faith were never really of it to begin with.
1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
John explains later that this is due to the nature of regeneration. Once a person comes to faith in Christ, they are born of God, which has the following impact:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10
Consequently genuine beliefs never fall away, neither regarding the faith, nor a lifestyle consistent with that faith, even they may sin from time to time.
Thus Paul says concerning believers "I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39
Notice among this list the two aspects I put in bold. Time cannot separate us from the love of God, which is literally to say "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED", nor can the individual separate himself from God he is a part of creation, and nothing in all creation can do so.
However, there are those who, though identifying themselves with the Christian community, and who allege faith, have not yet come to genuine faith - saving faith. Yes, they can fall away. But they don't "lose" salvation, as they had not been qualified to obtain it to begin with.
and again ..one only belongs until one chooses to disassociate, but as long as they choose to remain .. they are of us - so the point your trying to use is invalid .for ANY one who belongs can then choose to not belong any more .if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us
Still waiting for evidence that you're actually reading the above statement.
Let's try questions to help you exercise some basic reading comprehension skills:
What would have been true if they had really belonged to them?
If they left, did they ever really belong to them in the first place?
So you misconstrue the covenant to be salvation by works. This in contrast to the Bible that saysall this "sounds "very convincing "- but only because you've collected together the favorite texts and omitted so many other texts .if you post them both together in their context it become seen that the whole honest picture is not being presented in this post .
for instance.... "nothing can separate us from the love of God ".. this is true his love endures and as long as we return that love and out of love obey his love we will remain in his love .but it is the nature of that love to not force nor coerce beyond the self will of another .so if the will of another chooses to not obey the conditions by which we are saves ,having entered into a covenant one party in the covenant chooses to NOT abide by the terms of the covenant they break from the covenant and do not return to it -the first party is under obligation to carry out the terms which state the outcome of doing so . the love of god is still there and he is still faithful to his love but love is Just and justice cannot be ignored and still be loving -for god is Just and God is love .still nothing has separated us from gods love but we have chosen to not avail ourselves of his love but chosen disobedience instead . we will reap as sowed for it is not the love of God to oppose his own word in any respect .
the truth is .. no one is eternally saved UNTIL Christ arrives -we live in the hope of that salvation and because we believe in him to save us we obey his instructions .so that when he comes we will BE saved .. after that point we can never ever lose salvation - but up until that point we are "being saved " as we wait patiently obediently enduring until that point .
The cross opened up a way for us to get to heaven. A way for us to kneel before God and repent of our sins. It hasn't given us a 'free get out of Gail card!'
... Its "jail card." Not, Gail card.
And, what you said is a mockery of God's perfect redemption!
And, its calling Jesus a liar.
Here is what He said before all to hear.
Jn 6:36-40. Have you read it?
"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes
to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him
who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose
none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him
shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
What can't you understand there? If Jesus loses just one who came to Him? Just one? It would mean He failed to do the Father's will! DON'T GO BY YOUR FEELINGS! GO BY THE WORD OF GOD AND BELIEVE IT FOR ONCE!
Become transformed in your thinking. God is not like you. Become more like God.
You are not following the Bible.... you follow the feelings and opinions of men who project themselves in their minds as to declaring what they would do with believers if they were God.You misinterpret scripture. Once saved, always saved, is so untrue.
Everyone still has to do their bit of keeping in line as to what Jesus taught. He didn't suffer and die so that you didn't have to worry about sinning ever again.
I guess you are Sola Scripture. Remember the Our Father prayer? In it we ask God to forgive us our sins. Remember?
First off, I would completely agree with most Calvinists that the process of conversion is solely that of God alone. The reason for this is that I believe the Scripture if crystal clear on this matter, and in no place can that be more clearly seen than a place such as Ephesians 2:1-10.
Secondly, I would have to say that whenever anyone enters into glory, it will be due to no work of their own whatsoever. From the creation work of the Father, to the redeeming work of the Son, to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (as laid out in the apostles creed), the whole process of salvation is totally and purely monergistic from beginning to end. As far as Biblical references for this argument, they are simply too numerous and widespread to mention here.
With all that said however, I have come to the conclusion now that, although saving faith is itself a gift of God and something we cannot create of our own volition, it is also something that we can come to lose or reject. Repeatedly throughout the New Testament we are warned about the dangers of false teachings and the deceitfulness of sin, and we are exhorted to constantly seek after Christ and His Gospel. What is more, we are warned and exhorted in this manner because we are His children by faith in Christ, and by heeding these warnings and exhortations we shall endure to the end, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
As an ex Calvinist myself, many of the warnings and exhortations mentioned above were things I viewed in a pretty much hypothetical sense for the true believer, rather than a real and present danger. The more I have looked however, the more I realise this is untrue. A prime example of what I mean would be to look at the letter to the Colossians.
Colossians 1:1–3 (ESV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
The opening address is clearly written to the "saints and faithful brothers in Christ". This is not to say that when the letter was read in the churches, every hearer would be regenerate. But rather that the content of the message written by Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, was directed to those truly in the faith.
Immediately following, Paul goes on to remark on the obvious fruits of faith that have been manifest amongst the Colossian believers, and how they had heard and believed the true Gospel message, being taught by his faithful fellow servant, Epaphras. I think it really would be a leap of foolishness to suggest who Paul is indeed writing to are anything but genuine, regenerate Christian believers.
Paul then goes on to speak about the pre-eminence of Christ, and how in Him the fulness of God dwells, having the power and authority to reconcile to Himself all things in heaven and on earth by the blood of His cross. Then comes the kicker:
Colossians 1:21–23 (ESV)
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
What this shows is that our full redemption is actually conditional. That condition being that we believe, and continue to believe in the faith once for all delivered to the saints. Is that not the prime reason for such harsh warnings against false teachers, promoting a false gospel that can never save?
Once again, as an ex Calvinist I would often refer to the "golden chain of redemption" in Romans 8:29-30 as evidence backing up the perseverence of the saints, for it is spoken in the past tense as if already a done deal so to speak. However even written only a few verses previously, and obviously directly related to verses 29-30, Paul writes:
Romans 8:16–18 (ESV)
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
These verses are those leading directly leading into Paul speaking about the future glory in Christ that climaxes in verses 29-30, and place a clear condition the final glorification of the believer.
My reason for joining this conversation is not to jump on Calvinism though, as I feel much closer to Calvinist theology than any other. Rather my reason is that I believe that in this doctrine, Calvinism tries to force out assurance of salvation in a slightly off centre way. The reliance is upon the sovereign will of God that will not be fully unveiled before the Last Day. It is this crucial point that I have in hindsight often tried to argue for from the text of Scripture, where in reality it is not truly given to us.
As a Lutheran I have come to realise the value of Word and sacrament in the Christian life, as the channels through which we receive the promises of God's grace in Christ crucified and risen again. For God has instituted clear and tangible means, through which we can find full assurance of faith, without having to look under every rock and crevice to find it.
We can willingly submit ourselves to hearing His Word preached and expounded, knowing that by it our faith will grow:
Romans 10:17 (ESV)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
We can know without doubt that we are in Christ through the gift of baptism, believing that through it we share in both His death and resurrection life:
Romans 6:3–5 (ESV)
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
As we partake of His Body and Blood in the bread and cup, we are reminded to the depth of our being that He gave Himself completely for the forgiveness of our sins, sealing our redemption as a covenant in His own blood:
1 Corinthians 11:23–26 (ESV)
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
I could continue, but I think my point is clear by now. The full assurance of our salvation is found solely in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, which has been given to us in the Scripture. The Old Testament speaking prophetically concerning the coming Messiah, and the doctrine of the Apostles recorded in the New Testament, revealing how Christ is the fulfillment of the Scripture.
Thankfully, the conditions spoken of earlier concerning our ultimate glorification, are not works of our own. If that were the case we would all be lost forever. Rather it is a natural fruit borne from someone who has come to an understanding of their predicament, as a sinful wretch who should rightfully be eternally condemned by a Holy, Righteous and Almighty God. Who understands that should they be delivered from that dreadful place, it can only be because of His mercy and grace. The promise of which being embodied in the Person and Work of the only Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
I think the Bible is pretty clear that if the above is true of a Christian believer, even if that understanding is almost like a distant memory, there remains hope of salvation. For God is able once again to grant them the gift of repentance and faith. However I also believe the Bible speaks of a point of no return, where someone who once believed can totally reject the faith, and God will solidfy their rejection of Him to their eternal destruction:
Hebrews 10:24–31 (ESV)
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2 Thessalonians 2:9–12 (ESV)
9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I guess you are Sola Scripture. Remember the Our Father prayer? In it we ask God to forgive us our sins. Remember?
You misinterpret scripture. Once saved, always saved, is so untrue.
Everyone still has to do their bit of keeping in line as to what Jesus taught. He didn't suffer and die so that you didn't have to worry about sinning ever again.
I guess you are Sola Scripture. Remember the Our Father prayer? In it we ask God to forgive us our sins. Remember?
You are not following the Bible.... you follow the feelings and opinions of men who project themselves in their minds as to declaring what they would do with believers if they were God.
Its arrogance and self righteousness in defiance of God's Word.
Jn 6:36-40. Have you read it?
"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes
to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him
who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose
none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him
shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Read VERY slowly. Read it until you understand what is written in God's Word. Who cares about your opinion. Its means nothing in the light of God's Word.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose
none of all those he has given me,
whoever comes
to me I will never drive away.
Jesus is not the liar. Man is. Men lie against God's Word, pushing God's Word aside. Fake news.
Seems to me that you have your own views on Jesus's teachings. Who cares about your opinion?
Once saved, always saved means diddly squat if you actually believe that Jesus died so that you don't have to be worried about any sin. Both now and in the future.
The Holy Catholic Church has the correct teaching.
Have a read of this as it may help you understand a bit better:
http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/once-saved-always-saved.php
"so you" ..... lol never mind ME .. it not about me ..So you misconstrue the covenant to be salvation by works. This in contrast to the Bible that says
"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
I use bold for those parts you overlook. Maybe you need to be more comprehensive in your study. For presently you're still into Old Covenant performance based justification."so you" ..... lol never mind ME .. it not about me ..
look at the verse you just quoted , see how you embolded a few words ? .. this displays the continued error people make . to highlite in their minds one part of scripture (their own preferred part )-here you are doing it, dissecting right down to a few words at a time . but its not everything being said . and in honesty you know this .
you KNOW a person must endure to the end etc -you know of all the OTHER scriptures which balance it all out and MUST ,to have an honest approach ,address both sides to see the balance and to see the conditions placed on everything in scripture and the warning given in scripture along side the assurances.
and i will continue to summarize the endless circular argument with this - it is WHEN JESUS comes that we are then saved from the wrath of God as HE judges whom are his and whom were faithful to him .
and after he has done so and said "enter into the joy of the lord" -then and only then is salvation eternal .for many will think they have obtained it only to find they never had it in the first place .
after all they say "believe in the lord in thy heart and confess with thy mouth and you will be saved " - but this is not the ONLY thing the scripture says it is but a part of the over all picture .as are ALL the verses people pluck out and present as if that ONE verse is the sum total ..but it is NOT
i fully accept everything the scripture say , not just your preferred words . stop baiting me with assumtions your making about "me" and address the WHOLE topic in honest approach.I use bold for those parts you overlook. Maybe you need to be more comprehensive in your study. For presently you're still into Old Covenant performance based justification.
John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
As for endurance, that's inevitable for real Christians.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.