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Once saved always saved...Biblical?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by JKnappGirl, Oct 6, 2001.

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  1. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Inspector Vol, that was beyond awesome! Points identical to arguments I have made, with identical Scriptural quotes. It seems so perfectly clear to me, in Scripture, that the nature of our salvation is "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", succinctly "abiding in Him", which is not a "one-time-thing" but rather a "life-long-walk". I have discussed and argued and debated, but not convincing some "OSAS" proponents of the validity of Scripture. Most often they just quit responding, and then days later post elswhere the same exact arguments that I countered with Script

    In my immaturity I found that incredibly frustrating. As I grew in Christ and matured, I came to realize basic truths---there IS a Savior, and it's JESUS, not me. I now post the Scriptures as they were written, demonstrating the theological truths. If the person does not accept what the Bible says, that's perfectly OK--- I'm not the One they will ultimately answer to. After all, salvation being "surrender to Jesus", it is HIM and the Holy Spirit that must work in their hearts to "bring to completion the good work began in them" (Phil1). If it does not come to completion, then they have not chosen the "saved relationship/fellowship". Such is their

    "Carnal Christianity" is the easiest "OSAS" view to "debunk". Yet, after reading Heb10:26ff, 1Cor6:9ff and Gal5, after citing 2Tim2:11-12 (cause-and-effect, thesis-antithesis that our DENYING HIM equates to our NOT REIGNING WITH HIM), still are people who hold to "carnal Christianity". They actually believe that 1Cor5:5 says Paul gave them to be killed, that their souls would be saved"---which would have unrepentant immoral men, more immoral than Gentiles, entering Heaven!!! (This flying in the face of Jesus' words, that "Unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH! Luke 13:3) What more can I say to them? Nothing more. If they do not believe Scripture, my words will have no value either.

    But we serve a real God, and change comes from within, BECAUSE OF HIM. So I cease the argument (lest my words become mere "disputes/factions/dissentions"), I love them, and I pray for them. That God would convict them from the inside-out.

    It is the best I can do...
     
  2. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    All true, BenJohnson, but can any of those passages address the nonsense that attempts to evade the matter of falling away by claiming "they were never saved in the first place."

    So little do these people making the claim believe the plain statements of the Bible, that nothing can be proven to them.

    Show them that Jesus, in explaining the meaning of a parable, saying Luk 8:13 <font color=red>They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.</font>. Their response is to haughtily dismiss this as being part of the parable, and therefore irrelevant.

    Show them that the statement is not the parable, but an explanation of the parable's meaning - and there is no acknowledgement of the truth even then.

    Persistence in presenting the truth is necessary, in spite of this. While the person concerned has rejected the truth, yet others may be swayed if we do not.



     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    There's only so far you can go in "contending for the faith", or "admonishing with pure doctrine". I contend that 2Peter2 is dealing with "Christians who forsake salvation". I am rebutted with "They were FALSE PROPHETS and FALSE TEACHERS, they were NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH". I respond by carefully showing that the passage speaks of two different groups, the "false ones" and the "true ones". The former seek to entice to sin the latter. The latter, undeniably saved (unless you reject that the escapees in chapter 1 of the same book are ALSO not saved, which would be ridiculous), are enticed, stumble, and are overcome by the defilements of the world. No longer saved. I am rebutted with "But PETER was writing to the DISPENSATION THEN, it doesn't APPLY NOW". I cite James5:19-20, I'm told "They didn't really FALL FROM GRACE! It's only PHYSICAL DEATH, not SPIRITUAL". I quote the Greek of "Psuche" and "Thanatos", I'm told "James is aNOTHER previous-dispenation-book! It is not meant for us!" I quote Jesus' words, from Jn15, I'm told, "OH NO, He's not talking about them falling from salvation!" I correctly detail the intent of Hebrews, it is rejected.

    Comes a point when all that can be said, has been. In truth, no one will listen who does not want to hear. Ever striving for humility, I take my own words to heart, praying always that I myself shall be open to the Spirit, that I shan't be so fixed in my own opinion that I cannot admit to being wrong. I am fallible. I make mistakes. I am willing to admit it, and change---that I may be molded and used as the Spirit wills. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"!

    And I believe the Spirit wills that I contend for the Gospel, which is Jesus-IN-US, identically fellowship with/in/through Him. Available to ALL MEN, that "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved", that "whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life", that the life is "abiding in Him and His teachings", that "abiding in Him requires diligence and will"...

    This the Bible has taught me. Until I can be taught differently, from the Bible and from the Spirit, so shall I stand. But always in love and fellowship...
     
  4. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Accepted, BenJohnson, and understood. It may be that where one has a "directive" (for want of a better word) to deal with such conditions in one way, another will be led to deal with the problem in a very different manner. I am not satisfied that everyone is expected to comply with "him that will not tolerate sound doctrine, after a second or third warning, rebuke before all."

    That was quite a big list by the way - it might be a diverting pastime to produce a full list of all the nonsensical objections that people use when they are faced with sound doctrine. I reckon it should fit on a 4 gig hard drive - or maybe 6, anyway.


     
  5. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    Friends,

    OSAS is a FALSE belief that caters ONLY to people who ONLY want something for nothing! The Bible doesNOT support this belief.

    Jesus himself says that "he who ENDURES to the end shall be saved (Matt. 24:13).

    Jesus says that "he who believes in him is NOT condemned; but he who does NOT believe is CONDEMNED already... (John 3:1:cool: ."

    Apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 2:20-22 that those who have escaped the pollution of the world through their knowledge of Jesus and again are entangled in them, will end up worse than the beginning. Apostle Peter likens these people to "a dog returns to his own vomit " and "a pig, having been washed, to her wallowing in the mud."

    These verses indicate that what Jesus says is TRUE. "He who ENDURES to the end shall be saved." One may have NO condemnation as long as he BELIEVES Jesus and ABIDES in his words. But the moment one RETURNS to what he was BEFORE he believed Jesus, one BECOMES like a DOG who RETURNS to his own vomit and a PIG who RETURNS to his wallowing in the mud.

    Vomit and mud are figuratrive words for all the desires of the flesh that PREVENT one from entering the kingdom of heaven.

    Ed
     
  6. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    over the weekend their was a mens conferance, and one of the side subjects was OSAS as we were reading Peter 2.

    One of the best ideas i have heard is; Liveing a christian life is like a roller coaster, you have your ups and your downs in faith and sin, it takes a life time to shape your life in the way the lord would see fit. Others can do it fast then some but it does not say anywere in the bible that the change from a sinful to a completely sin free life would be over night. Altho I myself want the change to happen over night, I know it is hard like a rollercoaster but you are saved by grace, which brings faith, which is shown by your obediance/actions to the lord.
     
  7. WhitBit

    WhitBit Mirror of His Heart

    235
    +0
    I will say that some serious thinking has been done about this topic since I began reading the thread...Your faith is encouraging (from the vantage point of someone without any formal education in Biblical analyzation or historical theology...some pretty well informed guys out there!) I rest in the assurance that I will not have to worry about the consequences of either falling away or stressing that I "might" be - my grounding in the Father has been strengthened so much in the past several years, and I would not trade my Jesus for all the pleasure in the world. :)

    I have eternity - why would I settle for any cheap immitation?

    "Lead me to your truth and teach me, for you are the God who saves me. All day long I put my hope in you."
    ~Psalm 25:5
     
  8. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    You are correct, Whit.

    It is not an immediate whammy - there is growth involved from infants to adults in Christ. In that growth and maturing, first steps are taken, and the first stumbles and falling overs. The sticking fingers in hot coffee cups etcetera...every one of the aspects of physical growth to maturity has its counterpart in the spiritual.

    Some though, insist on remaining unweaned past the time.
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "that the nature of our salvation is "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", succinctly "abiding in Him", which is not a "one-time-thing" but rather a "life-long-walk". "

    Unfortunatly ya'll seemed to have confused sanctification with salvation. That's the problem. Salvation is perminent. It doesn't go away and come back and go away again. Just wanna know how you can be a new creation and then become an old one?
     
  10. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    You wrote:
    Apparently you don't have a clue on how one can be a NEW CREATION. One becomes a NEW CREATION in Christ AFTER one LISTENS to the gospel from an AUTHORIZED preacher, BELIEVES what one HEARS and get BAPTIZED into the BODY of Christ of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:1:cool: .

    Thus, the NEW you is composed of YOU (as member of Christ's body) and Christ as your Head. The OLD you is composed of your natural self which is APART from Christ..." WITHOUT hope and WITHOUT God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

    Once one SEPARATES from the BODY or church of Christ, one RETURNS to the OLD self (APART from Christ) and once again WITHOUT hope and WITHOUT God in the world.

    Ed

     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    *sigh* ed, you've got some parts wrong and others right. I'm not going to go into it with you right now. When you become a new creation the old is DEAD. its not coming back.
     
  12. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

    +0
    "When you become a new creation the old is DEAD. its not coming back."

    That explains all the sin in the church, then, huh? [​IMG]
     
  13. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    Personaly i would take the quote "When you become a new creation the old is DEAD. its not coming back." as:

    The Old: life befor acknowledgement/Knowledge of Christ.
    The New: life after acknowledgement that Christ is your Savior.
     
  14. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

    +0
    Yeah, that's what I took it as too, but that still doesn't explain all the sin in the church. [​IMG]
     
  15. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
    +1
    well as i had said in an earlier post it could take a lifetime to fully transform ones life for Christ. Not many can do it over night.

    Even the Pharasees (sp?). The lord said (to the effect of) do as they say not as they do.
     
  16. WhitBit

    WhitBit Mirror of His Heart

    235
    +0
    ...there's a distinction, I've been taught, as to the sin of Christian and the Sin *capital S* of the world...

    When we are born, we're born into Sin. We serve Sin - it rules our lives.

    But the actual sins *lowercase s* of someone are not the same, though they are often the byproduct of Sin.

    When a Christian sins, they are giving way to the darkness of the world - but their master, as shown by long-term committment to BATTLING their sinful nature, is not Sin but sin. The sins of the Church (hypocricy, lack of faith, lack of love, etc.) are just that - sins. It does not necessarily mean that they have returned to their "vomit" in their previous, dead life, but that they are still made of flesh and constantly engaging in war with their fleshly desires.

    Someone who's DEAD wages no such war...their master is Sin and sinning comes quite naturally :)

    I sin from time to time, as do Christians all over the place - does this mean that we keep bouncing back and forth between "saved" and "not saved"?? I think that one may fall away should they refuse to address with God the issue of their sins intentionally.
     
  17. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

    +0
    Nope, nope. :D Sin cannot cause anyone to "lose their salvation." Indeed, the Bible never addresses "losing your salvation." It does address falling away and persevering, though. You must choose every day to follow Jesus. You can choose not to follow Him. Judas was disciple, yet he turned away. He certainly didn't have eternal security, huh? :)

    My point was simply that if, at salvation, the old man is truly dead, then we no longer have a sin nature, we no longer have a desire to sin. Yet, we do sin. So something must be wrong. The new man must be put to death, but he doesn't die easily and he certainly doesn't die quickly. Indeed, he will be alive in these mortal bodies so long as the mortal body is alive. It is not until we meet death or we are caught up that we are changed and the sin nature is totally put off.

    Karen
     
  18. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    That's funny! And so true...

    Awesome posts, Karen. Exactly correct. If the "old man" (woman???) is indeed dead-and-gone-forever, why then do Christians still sin? And why is so much Scripture spent encouraging growth and righteous living?

    Far more likely that the old man is NOT gone, and if we "mess up" and "walk in the flesh", we sin and war inside, just as Paul says. So we are to "walk in the Spirit". Daily. Crucify the old man, daily.

    Not "earning salvation", but "abiding in Him", which is abiding in salvation...
     
  19. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    You wrote:
    What you are saying is FALSE.

    The OLD MAN is your SINFUL nature.

    The NEW CREATION is "you" - INSIDE the BODY or CHURCH of Christ AND Christ as your head (Eph. 2:15; Col. 1:1:cool: .

    The OLD MAN doesn't die when one becomes a NEW CREATION. The sinful nature is still there. That's why apostle Paul was constantly admonishing the early Christians to make their election sure. Even Jesus warned that he who ENDURES until the end will be saved (Matt. 24:13).

    Thus, one who CANNOT control his sinful nature and continues to sin, he is EXPELLED from the BODY or CHURCH of Christ (1 Cor. 5:12-13) and LOSES his hope for eternal life.

    Ed
     
  20. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Some people seem to think that sanctification and salvation are separate issues. That Jesus spoke a parable addressing this issue( in which the wedding guest who was not wearing the proper attire was ejected - that parable itself having a direct correlation with Rev 7:14*) - seems to escape them.

    <font color=purple> He who has this hope in him purifies himself, even as He also is pure. </font>
    Herein lies the heart of the problem regarding sin among believers and in the churches.

    In the first place, people are taught that they can do nothing, and are actively prevented from trying to do anything about becoming sanctified -
    people are taught that it is impossible to stop sinning - robbing them of the belief so necessary to success in overcoming sin.
    People teach their children, with the active support of the clergy, in contradiction of the teachings of Christ, that one must maintain a balance, putting religious practice in its proper place, and that religion should not be allowed to interfere with more important matters such as ensuring a proper future, and making sure they earn a good living (and getting a good education with that end in view.)

    * <font color=red>Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.</font>
     
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