Once saved always saved...Biblical?

[LouisBooth]

"But now, if I continue to do bad things to her, and each time I do them, I feel sorry and repent, the act is going to get old."

then you don't understand repenting do ya? Its a 180 degree turn. Look up the greek word used for it.

"just because we decided we wanted to do it. It's not even that cut and dry"

Umm...yeah it is. Its your own choice to sin, don't shuck the responsiblity. Its you doing the sinning, not anyone else.

"If you think "fear and trembling" is an indication of OSAS, we're not reading the same Bible."

*sigh* yeah it is. Its called reverance fear for the Lord almighty. That doesn't mean I'm not once saved always saved. Again, look up the verse in the greek.

"Therefore they must have no consequences."

if you truely repent of the, that's right, but if you are a christian, you won't do them because "...those who live in accordance with the Spirit have thrie mins set on what the Spirit desires." So when you're ready to stop asking silly questions we can move on.

"I think everyone here, if they look at their lives will see temptations that they struggle with daily"

That's right and everyone here will admit the choose to sin. It was their choice. they didn't HAVE to sin, they choose to. That is why Christ is our example, he CHOOSE not to sin.

"This doesn't mean that we're not Christians"

Exactly, it means we are choosing to sin. We are choosing to put on unlocked chains and live like we are embondaged to sin when we are free of it. Silly isn't it?

"Where do you draw the line between acceptable sins and non-acceptable sins for determining who is and isn't a Christian?"

I never said christians didn't sin did I? I said its not natural for them to. They are taking their new life for granted and taking their focus off of God because those alive in the Spirit (those that are saved) NATURALLY want to please God. We choose to sin. That's OUR choice, to go against our natural thoughts.

"No, it's a statement made because OSAS is so ridiculous as to be illogical.'

:lol: no, its made because you can't refute it biblically. I'll just leave you with this How many times can someone be born..Once in each realm and thats it. Once in the physical, once in the spiritual.

 

[Optimus_P]

man the subject os OSAS is quite a battle around here. seems to pop up everywhere. hehehhe

Lets look at it from this standpoint.

You will always be saved IF (notice the IF) you follow the covenant of Christ and the Father. You must follow these rules or you will live eternity in hell.

It is because of a pact that we are saved if you break it you are doomed. so do not fall from the lord and you have nothing to worry about.

the OSAS theory only works for believers. Those who choose to NOT beleave are doomed already.

 

[Thunderchild]

Well said, OptimusP

It might have been well to add though, that those who are doomed (predestined for hell) remain pre-destined for hell only if they refuse to repent.

And final message from me on this thread. OSAS 2 is one thread too many threads on this topic all by itself, 3 and more is getting ridiculous.

 

[LouisBooth]

and OP, I would counter with if you are a christian you will never stop being one. So it is OSAS. sheep never follow another voice.

 

[led]

i strongly believe that i can lose my salvation. mainly, because i currently know that i am in his grace. i know the spirit and have built an intimate relationship with the Lord. but, if i ever decided that i didnt want to be saved any longer, and i decided that i wanted nothing to do with God, he would be an unjust to force me to enter his salvation if i reject it. if this was the case then he would not be honoring my my free will and that would go against his character in His word.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

I do not know if this has been said or not - but after much thought on this - I have come to this conclusion.

I wont post further verses as many have been posted...but to make it clear as day..think of it this way.

Eternal Life is a free gift of Grace from our God. A gift is something you do not take back once it is received. Yes, someone may throw away the gift...but then they really never had it. Who in their right mind would throw away eternal life and a friendship as powerful as the one we have with our Saviour.

Ok, I understand Christians may sometimes doubt. And of course - that is just something that happens. But even through my doubts about my faith at times...what do I end up doing? I pray about it. That is right...Now - if I could deny the Spirit that I know so dearly - then why would I bother to pray. I KNOW God exists and i KNOW he lives in my life and have become close to Him. I can not deny what He has done for me, I can not deny He is real and Loving. If I were to deny Him - I was never really His to begin with.

I am babbliung - but to answer the question - Yes, I believe once one is truly saved - one can not lose that salvation - for a true sheep would not say, "I do not know my Shepard"

Hope that makes sense.

 

[ZiSunka]

Does anyone realize that in the two years I've been coming to CF, this issue has been continuously argued without any possible resolution?

Maybe it's time to put this issue to bed and simply acknowledge that it can't be resolved.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Does anyone realize that in the two years I've been coming to CF, this issue has been continuously argued without any possible resolution?

Maybe it's time to put this issue to bed and simply acknowledge that it can't be resolved.

There are a thousand issues that are constantly discussed and debated on in the Christian church..... predestination, baptism, communion etc etc etc...They will not be resolved. However, it is interesting for me to learn the view of others, dispite whether I agree or not. There is not harm in discussing these issues.,...if anything, we learn, grow and fellowship. I do not see the harm.

Those who are tired of discussing such areas - can simply refrain from reading them.

 

[sracer]

I look at the subject of OSAS from a different point of view...

The Bible tells us specifically what we need in order to be saved.

If we could lose our salvation, wouldn't the Bible say it? That's a very important thing to know.

And wouldn't it say specifically what would cause us to lose it?

Many of the discussions that I see on OSAS alway approach it by attempting to poke holes in the OSAS position rather than providing specifics in support of the opposing view.

 

[Ben johnson]

If we could lose our salvation, wouldn't the Bible say it? That's a very important thing to know.

Ahhh, but it does; over and over and over again. Those who believe in OSAS, take all these warnings as "empty hyperbole, windy rhetoric, fatherly bugbears against that which CANNOT happen...

Do WE persevere in GOD? (Jd21) Or does GOD persevere US? A very foundational question...

 

[Andrew]

Do WE persevere in GOD? (Jd21) Or does GOD persevere US? A very foundational question...

God help us if it is the former! But thank God the latter is the truth!


Romans 14:4
4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

1 Corinthians 1:8
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

2 Corinthians 1:21
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

2 Thessalonians 3:3
3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 2:18
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Jude 1:24
24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--

need we say more?

 

[Hungry]

I don't know if anyone brought this up yet or not because there were a lot of pages of posts but i'd really like to learn more about this issue. While it sounds true that once you are saved you would always be i find differing opinions from different parts of the bible. I doubt the bible is contradicting itself so maybe I just don't understand parts of it. But the book of Hebrews has several areas that seem to deal with this topic. Hebrews 5:11 through 5:14 is titled "Warning against falling away" in my NIV bible. I'm not sure why the writer of this God inspired book would warn anyone not to fall away, which I assume to mean loose their faith, or salvation for this issue, if loosing faith wasn't a problem. whenever a bibical author writes a letter to a church or were ever telling them not to do something it usually means that they were doing the thing. Hebrews 6:4 through 6 really says it pretty matter of fact, ultimately saying that anyone who falls away from the faith can never return to it. Now this sounds like it's possible to loose onces salvation if they turn away to me but I have a lot to learn and conversing with others who are hopefully wiser than myself, seems like a good thing to do. sorry for the long post. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

 

[Andrew]

hungry, you may want to check out:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/index.html

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Hungry! Welcolme to the boards!

All of Hebrews is problematic against those who believe in OSAS --- so much so that most OSAS proponents generally contend that "it's not WRITTEN for US TODAY". Please read Heb2:1-3, then 3:12-14 (noticing the glaring "IF" in verse 14!), then 4:1, then 10:26-36 (especially vs 26, 29, 35 {read Heb10:19 and Heb6:19 and you realize that verse 35 is warning "Do not THROW AWAY JESUS!"}, and verse 36. Then Heb12:25 and 13:9. There are MANY verses from other letters that parallel these thoughts (compare 13:9 with 2Pet3:17 and Col2:8!)

RE 6:4 --- often great meaning is gleaned from the TRANLSATING (and that is the word, "translate" --- rather than "INTERPRET") of the actual GREEK. What it says, is:
In the case of those who have been ONCE enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they PARAPIPTOS-FALL-AWAY it is ADUNATOS-powerless-UNABLE to restore them to repentance,

SEEING AS (King James version)
BECAUSE (New International version)
SINCE (New American Standard version)
WHILE! (New American Standard footnote)

...they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him to public shame (regard Him with contempt).

Sooooo, the PROBLEM with those in Heb6:4-6, is that WHILE they disbelieve they won't WANT to repent. "Adunatos" means "powerless, impotent, impossible-with-things, unable-with-people".

Many try to say that "they were PRETENDERS, only TASTERS but never really SAVED!" But read the word, "METOCHOS" --- it means MORE than "partakers", it really means "PARTNERS". It occurs in Heb3:1 ("Partners in a heavenly calling"), in 3:14 ("Partners in Christ"), and in 6:4 ("Partners with the Holy Spirit"). The SPIRIT simply does NOT partner with the unsaved. They fail who try to say "they were never saved". No, 6:6 is really mirroring 10:26 ("If we continue sinning willfully after receiving EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..." EPIGNOSIS is EXPERIENTIAL knowledge, the passage really means SAVED-knowledge...)...

6:4-6 rests the PROBLEM (and the inability to restore them to repentance) squarely with THEM and their UNBELIEF; it does not contradict Romans 11:23 ("And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again; for God is able to graft them in again...")

@ Andrew...

 

[JIGA]

In the book of ephesians it says, "Foy by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of your-selves: it is the gift of God:

Now the importance here are the words through faith. I agree God has granted us salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ(Grace), but you must have faith and utlize that faith to stay under that salvation. What is faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things unseen. How do you obtain faith? Faith is obtained by hearing the Word of God. Now if an idividual is not increasing his faith by hearing the Word of God, where does that leave him/she.

Ephesians 2: 8

 

[Asaph]

In the book of ephesians it says, "Foy by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of your-selves: it is the gift of God:

Now the importance here are the words through faith. I agree God has granted us salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ(Grace), but you must have faith and utlize that faith to stay under that salvation. What is faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things unseen. How do you obtain faith? Faith is obtained by hearing the Word of God. Now if an idividual is not increasing his faith by hearing the Word of God, where does that leave him/she.

Ephesians 2: 8

So then faith is something you generated from yourself? It is something you were so golly smart that you figured out?

Just exactly how arrogant and man centered is all this guff about "your" faith?

And please forgive me for quoting your post only. I just don't know how to quote posts from different authors in the same page. So don't feel like I am attacking you personally. I am not. I am saying that anyone who does not understand the concept of "Once Dead, Always Dead" is man centered and not Christ centered.

Asaph

 

[candystripes]

We should always remeber we dont earn salvation. It is a gift from god. We are warned not to sinn so we may stay in constant fellowship with God. But he knew we would fall. So he said repent and all you sins will be casted into the seas of forget fullness and god is not a man that he should lie.

 

[Iron Lion]

Hebrews 10:34

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of truth, No sacrafice for sins is left

 

[grtgogetter]

I have an issue with this doctrine in that it is very dangerous. I've heard supporters of this doctrine say that if you go back out in sin then you were never really saved. That's a crock of bologna because there are people who really did know God but left Him and went back out into sin with absolutely no regard for God.

Some verses:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Ezekiel 3:20-21
20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

If someone is a christian and they decide they want all kinds of sin - adultery, etc. even murder say, does that mean they are still going to heaven when they die? Is that just? I don't think so. I cannot say what the limits of how many sins are ok or what sins are ok, etc. and I don't know that I'm even willing to say that one sin will prevent you from heaven (although that may very well be and I endeavor to live that way), however, God does require something of us. I have a family member who was a real christian at one time, experienced real conversion ,etc. but now they live no christian life whatsoever and they cling onto the once-saved-always-saved doctrine as a cloak. He says he's going to heaven anyhow, even though there is nothing he doesn't do that he wants to. I just can't see God allowing that.

To me it is a frightening thing anyhow. The question truly is, if we believe it is Once saved always saved, is that something we are willing to stake our eternity on if we're wrong? I personally, would rather err on the side of extremism.

Song: More than anything in my life, I've got to make it.
I want to hear Him say "Well done, enter in my child, you've won"
More than anything in my life, I've got to make it.

There is also the argument of how Jesus taught that God and the devil cannot dwell together. Our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost if we are a christian and sin and the Holy Ghost cannot dwell together. To me, it truly is quite the paradox because at the same time I realize that everyone does sin at one time or another no matter how righteous and hard working they are. That's why the Bibles says that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous who is faithful to cleanse us of our sins. So does God leave if we sin and then come back when we pray for forgiveness? Does He just back in the shadows? I really don't know. But I do think there is a point where God will no longer hang around.

Romans 1:18-32 is a pretty strong argument for this I think.

I'll stop there for now.

 

[Christler]

Hi, Hungry! Welcolme to the boards!

All of Hebrews is problematic against those who believe in OSAS --- so much so that most OSAS proponents generally contend that "it's not WRITTEN for US TODAY". Please read Heb2:1-3, then 3:12-14 (noticing the glaring "IF" in verse 14!), then 4:1, then 10:26-36 (especially vs 26, 29, 35 {read Heb10:19 and Heb6:19 and you realize that verse 35 is warning "Do not THROW AWAY JESUS!"}, and verse 36. Then Heb12:25 and 13:9. There are MANY verses from other letters that parallel these thoughts (compare 13:9 with 2Pet3:17 and Col2:8!)

RE 6:4 --- often great meaning is gleaned from the TRANLSATING (and that is the word, "translate" --- rather than "INTERPRET") of the actual GREEK. What it says, is:
In the case of those who have been ONCE enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they PARAPIPTOS-FALL-AWAY it is ADUNATOS-powerless-UNABLE to restore them to repentance,

SEEING AS (King James version)
BECAUSE (New International version)
SINCE (New American Standard version)
WHILE! (New American Standard footnote)

...they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him to public shame (regard Him with contempt).

Sooooo, the PROBLEM with those in Heb6:4-6, is that WHILE they disbelieve they won't WANT to repent. "Adunatos" means "powerless, impotent, impossible-with-things, unable-with-people".

Many try to say that "they were PRETENDERS, only TASTERS but never really SAVED!" But read the word, "METOCHOS" --- it means MORE than "partakers", it really means "PARTNERS". It occurs in Heb3:1 ("Partners in a heavenly calling"), in 3:14 ("Partners in Christ"), and in 6:4 ("Partners with the Holy Spirit"). The SPIRIT simply does NOT partner with the unsaved. They fail who try to say "they were never saved". No, 6:6 is really mirroring 10:26 ("If we continue sinning willfully after receiving EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..." EPIGNOSIS is EXPERIENTIAL knowledge, the passage really means SAVED-knowledge...)...

6:4-6 rests the PROBLEM (and the inability to restore them to repentance) squarely with THEM and their UNBELIEF; it does not contradict Romans 11:23 ("And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again; for God is able to graft them in again...")

@ Andrew...

Hey Ben, I'm a supporter of once saved always saved,but your study has compelled me to check it out for myself. two questions (the answers may have to be opinion based) Would this be an example of Judas Iscariot?
and would the turning away for good be an example of Blasphemy against The Holy Spirit "The unforgivable Sin?"