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Kanuk
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If you think you can defend the false doctrines of Calvinism try challenging SmartAsk:
http://www.voy.com/55491/
But be ready.
Kanuk
http://www.voy.com/55491/
But be ready.
Kanuk
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Kanuk
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anyone who is a Calvinist. Calvinists love to puff themselves up..... at least until the challenge comes.
Kanuk
Kanuk
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I have seen some stuff on here about them and if it is true then they are kinda out there by themselves.
I have noticed from a couple of posts that we share a similar belief in a couple of things, so what church do you attend. I have mine listed in my bio.
I have noticed from a couple of posts that we share a similar belief in a couple of things, so what church do you attend. I have mine listed in my bio.
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
<font color=blue> Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29: My father, which gave them to me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my fathers hand. </font>
Those who follow Jesus hear his voice and no-one can pluck them from his hand. Oh very nice. Is it written somewhere in there, that those who have ceased to follow continue to hear his voice? or that none can pluck those who have ceased to follow from Jesus's hand?
Ah, but if a person has been following, some might say, they can not be plucked from Jesus's hand. I can see how they might get that impression - but not when Jesus's OWN exposition is taken into account - Luk 8:13 <font color=blue> They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. </font>
What was that again? Some will believe for a time, but in time of temptation fall away. Clearly those that are following will hear his voice, and they can not be plucked from Jesus's hand WHILE THEY CONTINUE TO FOLLOW. Could that explanation possibly be right?
Jhn 17:12 <font color=blue> While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.</font> Of those who were given to Jesus, all have been kept - EXCEPT the son of perdition. According to this verse, Judas was given to Jesus, but he was lost nonetheless.
The concept that a person can be following, yet fall away has been clearly established in a very short time.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Does Peter subscribe to the concept of OSAS, or does he admit that falling away is possible?
Those who follow Jesus hear his voice and no-one can pluck them from his hand. Oh very nice. Is it written somewhere in there, that those who have ceased to follow continue to hear his voice? or that none can pluck those who have ceased to follow from Jesus's hand?
Ah, but if a person has been following, some might say, they can not be plucked from Jesus's hand. I can see how they might get that impression - but not when Jesus's OWN exposition is taken into account - Luk 8:13 <font color=blue> They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. </font>
What was that again? Some will believe for a time, but in time of temptation fall away. Clearly those that are following will hear his voice, and they can not be plucked from Jesus's hand WHILE THEY CONTINUE TO FOLLOW. Could that explanation possibly be right?
Jhn 17:12 <font color=blue> While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.</font> Of those who were given to Jesus, all have been kept - EXCEPT the son of perdition. According to this verse, Judas was given to Jesus, but he was lost nonetheless.
The concept that a person can be following, yet fall away has been clearly established in a very short time.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Does Peter subscribe to the concept of OSAS, or does he admit that falling away is possible?
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LouisBooth
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What it comes down to is this..is salvation man earned or God given? If it can be taken away it is man earned..That is not so, the bible clearly shows that. If it is God given then it is perminent. 
Hope that simplifying of the issue helped ya'll.
thunder, you misunderstand the appication of that pariable in Luke. It is not talking about perminence of salvation. It is talking about NOT loosing your salavtion but loosing belief in the word, with to question is did they really have it in the first place. Your passage in John isn't even appicable since it is an exception as clearly noted in the verse itself just as Jesus is the exception to all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
In second peter, if you read the context, he is warning about false teachers, not loosing your salvation..this one is a very poor example. I'll go on...oh..wait, that was your last one Okay, so I've debunked them all with a little bit of context, wow..never would have thought that would come into play :lol:
Hope that simplifying of the issue helped ya'll. thunder, you misunderstand the appication of that pariable in Luke. It is not talking about perminence of salvation. It is talking about NOT loosing your salavtion but loosing belief in the word, with to question is did they really have it in the first place. Your passage in John isn't even appicable since it is an exception as clearly noted in the verse itself just as Jesus is the exception to all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
In second peter, if you read the context, he is warning about false teachers, not loosing your salvation..this one is a very poor example. I'll go on...oh..wait, that was your last one
Okay, so I've debunked them all with a little bit of context, wow..never would have thought that would come into play :lol:
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LouisBooth
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Nope, that's the point and why works CANNOT have any part in salvation, if so then it is man earned and thus not God given by grace.
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You said that if it was God given than it was permanent. I showed you a way that something could be given and lost yet still remain a gift and not something earned.
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LouisBooth
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"I showed you a way that something could be given and lost yet still remain a gift and not something earned. "
If you truely recieve it, you do not throw it away. For you are a NEW creature. All of this was covered in romans chapter 6 and 7....
If you truely recieve it, you do not throw it away. For you are a NEW creature. All of this was covered in romans chapter 6 and 7....
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Brother Roger
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If the nature of the gift is analogous to a man giving a woman a ring, then we might ask the question. Can the woman give the ring back? Sure. The woman can give the ring back. If salvation is that kind of gift, then it makes sense to speak about it in terms of accepting it or giving it back.
On the other hand, suppose the nature of the gift is analogous to the fairy's gift of boyhood to Pinocio. Then we might ask, can the boy give his gift back? Can he stop being a boy and revert to being a puppet again? If the nature of salvation is such that it effects a person existentially, ontologically, then it doesn't make sense to think about giving it back.
What is "going forward"? Is that like a woman accepting a ring? Or is going forward more like Picocio getting his boyhood? I experienced it as if I was accepting something from God. However, the longer I live, the more I realize that until he gave me rebirth, I wasn't even interested in the gift.
For that reason, I think salvation is more like Pinocio's transformation. When God changes you, you are changed for good.
On the other hand, suppose the nature of the gift is analogous to the fairy's gift of boyhood to Pinocio. Then we might ask, can the boy give his gift back? Can he stop being a boy and revert to being a puppet again? If the nature of salvation is such that it effects a person existentially, ontologically, then it doesn't make sense to think about giving it back.
What is "going forward"? Is that like a woman accepting a ring? Or is going forward more like Picocio getting his boyhood? I experienced it as if I was accepting something from God. However, the longer I live, the more I realize that until he gave me rebirth, I wasn't even interested in the gift.
For that reason, I think salvation is more like Pinocio's transformation. When God changes you, you are changed for good.
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LouisBooth
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"For that reason, I think salvation is more like Pinocio's transformation. When God changes you, you are changed for good"
Amen!! Great analogy..I'm gonna use it if that's okay?
Amen!! Great analogy..I'm gonna use it if that's okay?
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Dear Louis,
You said
You said
This is why scriptures says it is such a tragedy to go back, but it doesn't prove that you can't go back.
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Excellent posts, Josephus. You and I agree completely, seemingly on all but one point: can a person who is truly saved, with "Jesus-LORD-OF-THEIR-LIVES", ever fall from salvation? I can provide clear Scripture to answer that---but since the topic of this thread seems to be asking for support of OSAS, I shall defer for now.
If JKnappGIrl or several of you want to hear what I consider irrefutable Scriptures on the subject, I'm certainly game.
I do want to leave you all with one thought: "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (Greek: "Harpazo", seize-or-remove-forcibly---same exact word as used in 1Thess4:17 in reference to the Rapture) them out of the Father's hand." Does this verse say anything about "he who walks willingly out of the Father's hand, from disbelief"?
If JKnappGIrl or several of you want to hear what I consider irrefutable Scriptures on the subject, I'm certainly game.
I do want to leave you all with one thought: "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (Greek: "Harpazo", seize-or-remove-forcibly---same exact word as used in 1Thess4:17 in reference to the Rapture) them out of the Father's hand." Does this verse say anything about "he who walks willingly out of the Father's hand, from disbelief"?
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LouisBooth
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"This is why scriptures says it is such a tragedy to go back, but it doesn't prove that you can't go back. "
Umm..You can't be born twice spiritually. See John chapter 3. the same question applies here that nic asked just in a different context. You have 2 births..1 physical 1 spiritual. Can you be born twice in the same context? Nope. Just like you can't be born again physically.
Umm..You can't be born twice spiritually. See John chapter 3. the same question applies here that nic asked just in a different context. You have 2 births..1 physical 1 spiritual. Can you be born twice in the same context? Nope. Just like you can't be born again physically.
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And behind door number THREE, we have: "salvation is a free gift from God, unearned, undeserved, which is bestowed on ALL WHO RECEIVE IT! Salvation always takes two things: Grace from God (by love), and faith from us (by conviction). "For by grace through faith have you been saved, and that (grace) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God". "If you confess Jesus as Lord (your faith), "and believe God raised Him from the dead" (God's grace), " YOU WILL BE SAVED".
John 3 says only that we have to be born physically, and then be born Spiritually. It does not say "Spiritually, ONCE". The Prodigal Son in Luke 15 is a great example of the son who was dead, then alive AGAIN. (No the argument "HE NEVER STOPPED BEING THE FATHER'S SON" doesn't work---unless you believe someone living in wanton hedonism can be SAVED!) Then, there's the verse in Romans 11, "And they too, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again, for God is able to graft them in again". (The careful use of the singular and plural here indicates its application to indivicuals, not just "Israel-as-a-people were cut off and can be grafted in again")...
As to the "born again physically", isn't that what happened to Lazarus, Tabitha, the little girl...
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"You can't be born twice spiritually"
I agree, and that is what Hebrews says as well. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
I agree, and that is what Hebrews says as well. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
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I am curious how it is that you determined that the nature of salvation is something which cannot be given up. Considering the numerous exhortations and warnings found in scripture, why would you think that it is irresistable?
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
<font color=green> thunder, you misunderstand the appication of that pariable in Luke..</font>
On the contrary - it was not the parable but Jesus's own explanation thereof that I made reference to.
<font color=green> It is not talking about perminence of salvation. It is talking about NOT loosing your salavtion but loosing belief in the word, with to question is did they really have it in the first place.</font>
Are those who do not believe saved? And does the passage say that those who once believe can not again disbelieve? <font color=red>which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. </font>
Or would 2Pe 2:21 <font color=red>For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. </font>
fail to provide a second witness that one can fall away - and provide evidence that falling away definitely means that a person can lose salvation - for the people being spoken of here also have this said of them -2Pe 2:1 <font color=red> But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. </font>
Look at that again....false teachers shall be among you - they deny the Lord who BOUGHT them - they bring destruction upon themselves. They have known the way of righteousness - they have turned away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
<font color=green> Your passage in John isn't even appicable since it is an exception as clearly noted in the verse itself just as Jesus is the exception to all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.</font> Well now, this is new ... normally OSAS subscribers merely try to reinterpret John 17:12. As to the claim that it is no more than an exception - it is quite clear that Jesus considered that some - Luke 8:13 (yet again) - will believe for a time but later fall away.
On the contrary - it was not the parable but Jesus's own explanation thereof that I made reference to.
<font color=green> It is not talking about perminence of salvation. It is talking about NOT loosing your salavtion but loosing belief in the word, with to question is did they really have it in the first place.</font>
Are those who do not believe saved? And does the passage say that those who once believe can not again disbelieve? <font color=red>which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. </font>
Or would 2Pe 2:21 <font color=red>For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. </font>
fail to provide a second witness that one can fall away - and provide evidence that falling away definitely means that a person can lose salvation - for the people being spoken of here also have this said of them -2Pe 2:1 <font color=red> But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. </font>
Look at that again....false teachers shall be among you - they deny the Lord who BOUGHT them - they bring destruction upon themselves. They have known the way of righteousness - they have turned away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
<font color=green> Your passage in John isn't even appicable since it is an exception as clearly noted in the verse itself just as Jesus is the exception to all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.</font> Well now, this is new ... normally OSAS subscribers merely try to reinterpret John 17:12. As to the claim that it is no more than an exception - it is quite clear that Jesus considered that some - Luke 8:13 (yet again) - will believe for a time but later fall away.
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