Once saved always saved...Biblical?

[LouisBooth]

"The OLD MAN is your SINFUL nature. "

Ed, if you are a christian you have no sinful nature. PERIOD.

"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

See there? and in gal 5 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

GONE.

 

[Optimus_P]

LB: i think your post would kinda support the if you sin but once you are to suffer eternaly. Just once is all it takes. I would think alot of us if not all of us would have falied already.

I mean have you ever lost your temper, cussed, gotten angry and so on weither out loud or in your mind it does not matter it is all sin.

 

[Ben johnson]

2Cor5:17 if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all has become new.

"Passed-Away, Parerchomai" ---passed by, left behind, nelected. Is there anything here that says they "old things" cannot be picked up again? No...

 

[LouisBooth]

". I would think alot of us if not all of us would have falied already."

*sigh* no no no....if we relied on our rightousness I would agree but we are saved BY CHRIST'S RIGHTOUSNESS. Period.

""Passed-Away, Parerchomai" ---passed by, left behind, nelected. Is there anything here that says they "old things" cannot be picked up again? No..."

You dont' realize what death means in biblical context. It means perminent seperation. We are permentently seperated from our sin nature. It is GONE. NOT IN US ANYMORE. Does that mean you don't sin..no, but it does mean you don't have that nature anymore.

 

[snw7]

Well, it took me 2 days to read through all of these posts. Very informative and extremely well said by both sides.

I however will stand on the side oppossed to the OSAS view. So many have said it so eloquently already, that I don't really feel the need to re-hash what has already been posted. Although Thunder did quote a scripture that really caught my eye. I'm going to go back and look at it and respond on it.

I must say that I really and honestly thought that I was one of the few people who didn't believe in OSAS. If nothing else - thanks for all the encouragement and good study resources. Especially kudos to Inspector V for that HUGE article that was posted - excellent!

Overjoyed by the truth I believe,
Shawn

 

[snw7]

alright - i'm quite confident in the fact that some of you may be quicker to do this than others, but if i'm stretching what i'm writing in this post - please correct me.

P. Thunder used Luke 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

It says that they received the word with joy!

Gal 5:22 - "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness" (NIV)

I Thesselonians 1:6 "You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit."

my question is this - is joy only given through the Holy Spirit? is this the same joy that is being discussed in Luke by those who heard/received the message? if so, then from what i know about the Holy Spirit, only believers are indewlt with the Holy Spirit after repentence and baptism - Acts 2:38

The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly (Proverbs 15:2)
Shawn

 

[Thunderchild]

I would love to be able to say "yes," snw7, but that would be playing a rather nasty game with the scriptures.

I suspect though that "receiving the word with joy" is only something that those who love the truth would do - particularly as Jesus was talking about the word as it is supposed to be presented. That word is not in all ways a loveable message - many parts of the word are bitter to the mouth, for all that they are pleasant to the stomach.

 

[snw7]

Thanks for the reply - my intent wasn't to make the scriptures say something that it wasn't meant to say - thanks for the clarification.

 

[nyj]

Ed, if you are a christian you have no sinful nature. PERIOD.

Wait a second, I need some clarification here. Are you trying to tell me that "all true Christians" do not sin? This is what us Catholics would call the sin of presumption!

Then you said:

We are permentently seperated from our sin nature.

Unfortunately while we are mortal, we cannot be separated from our sinful nature. It is our very nature that makes us susceptible to sin and what leads us to sin. Not until we have died and are risen from the dead, through the promised of Christ, will that nature be destroyed. It is impossible for that to happen while we are still of this earth. That the wages of sin is death, and that we die is testament enough to the fact that as mortals, we sin irregardless of whether we are Christians or not.

What separates us as Christians from others though, is that we acknowledge those sins, seek forgiveness and continue to run the race for and to Christ.

 

[nyj]

Well, I jumped in on the end of this conversation here and I must confess that I didn't take the time to read every post here, so if I rehash some of what has already been said, my apologies.

No, I do not believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved". I think it gives a false impression of salvation. Jesus Christ plainly said in Matthew 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. This does not, no matter how you cut it, jive with an OSAS principle. This passage, and it's explained by the verses before it, speaks about those who start out on the path, yet fall off along the way. If they HAD persevered, they WOULD have been saved, but they did not, so they are not.

Paul, in his letter to the Romans had this to say (Romans 11:22) See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Paul was clearly teaching this to people who were already a part of the Body of Christ. He clearly held the Church in Rome in great esteem, one only need read the beginning of the Epistle. Yet now he is telling them to beware, to work out their salvation with "fear and trembling" like he himself was doing. Of all people to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, one would think that this Apostle would not have to do that, yet he did. An indication that Paul did not view his Christian-status as a guarantee or assurance of salvation.

Likewise, in Hebrews 10:36-39 Paul states: You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised. "For, after just a brief moment, he who is to come shall come; he shall not delay. But my just one shall live by faith, and if he draws back I take no pleasure in him." We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and will possess life.

Paul speaks of persistance and endurance, not something one would think they would need if, upon obtaining salvation there was no chance of losing it. Claiming that "those who do not persist were never Christians to begin with" also does not jive, especially after what Paul had said to the Romans.

This leaves me with only one conclusion. My salvation ISN'T assured.

 

[LouisBooth]

*sigh* yes, you have no sin nature. Yes you still sin, but your nature to sin is gone! You are no longer citizens of the world, you are of the kingdom. The sin nature in you is dead.

"Matthew 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. This does not, no matter how you cut it, jive with an OSAS principle. "

Yes it does and perfectly. I want to know if you think Christians can be decieved and worship and follow another? Read John chapter 10. Lets look at verse 5 "But they will NEVER foloow a strander' in face they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice. Like it says, ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.


"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."

Again context is missed here. Chapters 9-11 are resolving the problem of Isreal rejecting Christ. Heck the next verse should clear it up!! "and if they do not persist in unbelief.." umm..what does that tell you? :lol:

"Paul speaks of persistance and endurance, not something one would think they would need if, upon obtaining salvation there was no chance of losing it. "

*sigh* OSAS does NOT advocate complacency. Get it right next time before ya post. Thanks.

 

[WhitBit]

*ahem* The question that I referred to many posts ago is still nagging at me...

"And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he is the one who has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption." ~Ephesians 4:30

And as to having our sin nature removed...

"So I advise you to live according to you new life in teh Holy Spirit. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves. The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict. But when you are directed by the Holy Spirit, you are no longer subject to the law." ~Galatians 5:16-18

That's why it's so important that we stay close to God! We're still at the disposal of ourselves when we don't choose to be at GOD'S disposal.

 

[LouisBooth]

okay, that verse is talking about your final action of full salvation ie sanctificaiton in God. Look at the passage it clearly explains it in verse 5:13..."until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and BECOME MATURE, ATTAINING OT THE WHOLE MEASUER OF THE FULLNESS IN CHRIST."

AGain look at the surrounding passage verse 1:"it is for freedom that Christ has set us free, Stand firm, then, and DO NOT LET YOURSELVES BE BURDENED AGAIN BY A YOKE OF SLAVERY." Now what does this mean? An analogy to explain. Imagine you are dirt poor. You live on the streets and eat out of garbage cans. One day a man hands you a lottery ticket. You win 100 million dollars (after taxes ) Now if you get 100 millon dollar bills and keep them in a coffee can and carry them around with you still living on the streets and eating out of garbage cans..what has changed? That's exactly what you're saying. If you are set free through Christ you are no longer poor!! ie you no longer have the sin nature. So don't live like you do! Live as a free person. That's what that passage is saying.

 

[nyj]

yes, you have no sin nature. Yes you still sin, but your nature to sin is gone!

If I have no nature to sin, then why am I still sinning?! This is why OSAS makes no sense whatsoever. If I can still say "No" to God, which is what happens when I sin, why is my salvation not in jeopardy?

 

[LouisBooth]

"If I have no nature to sin, then why am I still sinning?! "

Because you choose to. Before it was your nature, now its your choice. Read romans.

"which is what happens when I sin, why is my salvation not in jeopardy? "

Because "by dying to what once bond us, we have been releaseed from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the wold way of the written code." Sin's consequences are no longer an issue. The law is no longer corrupted for those who are in christ.

 

[nyj]

Because you choose to. Before it was your nature, now its your choice.

But, since it is no longer my nature, I can sin and it won't impact my salvation?

Sin's consequences are no longer an issue.

Ah, so I can now kill and rape and it won't matter one iota as to my salvation. Now, isn't that handy and convenient? Oh wait, I know... if I would do such a thing I wasn't really a Christian anyways. That is such the lovely trapdoor in the whole argument.

 

[LouisBooth]

"But, since it is no longer my nature, I can sin and it won't impact my salvation?"

Yuppers.. Think of it this way. when you where young you did bad things to your mom. Now that you are older (assuming you don't have a vindictive mean mom) do you think those things you did and repented of mean she doesn't love you anymore? Nope. Sin's "sting" is no more when you are saved.

8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

How do you know he is talking to christians? "You, however, are controled not by the sinful nautre, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you."

"Ah, so I can now kill and rape and it won't matter one iota as to my salvation. "

:lol: now that is just a stupid thing to say ya know? Why do I say that. If you are of the new nature your NATURAL desire will be to serve God and not sin. If you still do that stuff (rape and murder) then odds are you do not have Christ in you.

"That is such the lovely trapdoor in the whole argument. "

not a trap door at all. God judges the heart. This is a statement made when you have no logical or biblical support to your argument. So if you can't refute it, move and and be quiet. Thanks

 

[snw7]

"Because you choose to. Before it was your nature, now it's your choice."

Sorry? By that statement you are implying that now, because we are a new creation we have a choice to sin or not. Before we were saved we didn't have a choice as to whether we sinned or not.

If we had no choice as to whether we sinned before we were saved because of our nature - then how is it possible that we were able to make the correct choice to take up our cross and follow Christ as our saviour?

You make it sound like we were robots to sin without choice, but now that we've been saved we have choice. There are several scriptures giving evidence of free-will before we are saved - meaning when we are faced with decisions we have the choice of the right and wrong thing to do. Just because one is not saved doesn't mean that they are stripped of their free-will - that's ludicrious. If we were not given free-will (the ability to choose) before we were saved, none of us would be saved because we would forever be tied to our sinful nature.

God grants us free-will both before and after. If God forced us to love him without choice - God wouldn't be love.

 

[nyj]

Yuppers.. Think of it this way. when you where young you did bad things to your mom. Now that you are older (assuming you don't have a vindictive mean mom) do you think those things you did and repented of mean she doesn't love you anymore? Nope.

But now, if I continue to do bad things to her, and each time I do them, I feel sorry and repent, the act is going to get old.

Everyone who is anyone knows that whether or not they walk with the Lord, temptations are always there and we always struggle with sin. You make it seem like if we sin, it's just because we decided we wanted to do it. It's not even that cut and dry. To make it seem that cut and dry is to trivialize the serious nature of sin. Paul, handpicked by God to preach to the Gentiles, told us to work out our own salvation with "fear and trembling". If you think "fear and trembling" is an indication of OSAS, we're not reading the same Bible.

now that is just a stupid thing to say ya know?

Not at all. You said that if we sin, it would have no consequences. Rape and murder are sins. Therefore they must have no consequences.

If you are of the new nature your NATURAL desire will be to serve God and not sin.

As fallen creatures, we will always have to struggle with sin. I think everyone here, if they look at their lives will see temptations that they struggle with daily. If this is what it means to have a natural desire to serve God and not sin, it's a very odd thing. Rather, quite often our desire is to think of ourselves first and foremost and God afterwards. This doesn't mean that we're not Christians, but that we need God for our salvation. Just like the prodigal son who returned to his father, so are we, returning to God after we sin, and God is only too happy to allow us to return.

If you still do that stuff (rape and murder) then odds are you do not have Christ in you.

What about other sins? Most people struggle with sexual issues (I believe the percentage of men and women cheating on their spouse is extremely high 50% for men, 30% for women), do these count? What about someone with a temper? Where do you draw the line between acceptable sins and non-acceptable sins for determining who is and isn't a Christian?

God judges the heart.

Yah, He knows all. What's your point?

This is a statement made when you have no logical or biblical support to your argument. So if you can't refute it, move and and be quiet.

No, it's a statement made because OSAS is so ridiculous as to be illogical.

 

[LouisBooth]

wow..I'm gonna have a field day on this one :lol:

"By that statement you are implying that now, because we are a new creation we have a choice to sin or not. Before we were saved we didn't have a choice as to whether we sinned or not."

yup that's right. Read romans. Its all explained in there. Great book.

"then how is it possible that we were able to make the correct choice to take up our cross and follow Christ as our saviour"

That's right, you can't It is by grace you are saved. God reaching out to us BEFORE we reach out to him. His reaching out validates us reaching to him. That's why its faith alone we can do nothing because we are slaves to sin. A slave can't free himself.


"You make it sound like we were robots to sin without choice"

Yup, thats because thats how it was.

"There are several scriptures giving evidence of free-will before we are saved "

Show me where it is so. Is it not God that calls and we ANSWER? You can't answer BEFORE you are called.

"Just because one is not saved doesn't mean that they are stripped of their free-will - that's ludicrious"

No, it means they are a slave to sin. They are dead in their transgressions. It is God that gives life.

"If God forced us to love him without choice - God wouldn't be love. "

No it wouldn't. He calls all people. BUT if he didn't call we couldn't be saved. Hence it is God's call that gives us the ablitity to choose. We have no free will before, we were slaves to sin.