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Once again, for the newcomers, 1000 is more often symbolic than literal

Spiritual Jew

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Look at your argument, though. Let's see you apply that the same way to the thousand years, that it means all years the same way that a thousand generations mean all generations. A thousand years could never mean all years and you know it. The thousand years have a beginning and an ending, therefore using an example involving generations is not comparable to something involving years in the same way.

How many years has there been thus far, meaning since the beginning of time? Are the thousand years meaning everyone of those years since the beginning of time? Of course not.

The only way to reasonably prove that a thousand years are not meaning a literal thousand years is by providing examples from the OT and NT where a number is followed by years, and that it is not literally meaning the amount of years specified, thus proving when a number is followed by years, it is not always literally meaning the amount of years specified. When are any of you ever going to get around to doing that? You are comparing to things not comparable, not to things comparable. While a thousand generations can mean all generations, and a thousand hills can mean every single hill, a thousand years can never mean every single year. But I suspect some of you still don't get it.
You are the one who doesn't get it in this case. The argument being made isn't that the thousand years refers to all years as if the word "thousand" equates to "all". The argument is that the word thousand refers to an undefined number of generations in Deuteronomy 7:9. Yes, it was pointed out that the thousand generations refers to all generations, but the point is not to say that the word thousand is used figuratively for "all". The point is that it's used figuratively to describe an undefined number rather than a literal thousand. And that is the case for Revelation 20 as well.

I don't find your argument regarding your man-made rule that a number preceding the word "years" has to be literal to be convincing, either.

I've pointed out to you before how numbers that come before the word "generations" in scripture are always literal except when it talks about "a thousand generations". So, does that mean the references to "a thousand generations" has to be literal, too? According to your logic, it does.
 
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eclipsenow

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I think the bigger picture is that the Trinity only applies to this current reality. At the end of the 1,000 year reign and Christ the Prince hands back the kingdom and becomes the all in all; that is when this present reality and having a Trinity of 3 persons ends.
Um, no.
Jesus was before any thing in this universe was created - John 1:1.
You seem to be redefining God as some sort of Modalism, but we know Jesus and God the Father exited before any created order - and the Spirit was involved in creation - so all 3 existed before this physical universe.

If there is no more sin, defining a Trinity would no longer make sense. Defining body, soul, and spirit may not make sense either, if there is a whole different set of phenomenon unknown to us. All we know is the last 6,000 years of good and evil.
I'm not sure it's 6000 years - given evolution.
I'm not sure of your metaphysics - given 2000 years of theology and philosophy.
 
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Timtofly

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I'm not sure it's 6000 years - given evolution.
I'm not sure of your metaphysics - given 2000 years of theology and philosophy.
I doubt you accept Noah as being the only survivor with his 3 sons of a global flood, but that is God's Word.
 
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eclipsenow

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I doubt you accept Noah as being the only survivor with his 3 sons of a global flood, but that is God's Word.
Yeah, so again we have literary and literal.
You believe in literal floodgates do you?
This is the actual cosmology the Israelites were using when they wrote the flood narrative.
I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable - but this is what history tells us those 'floodgates' meant - not some modern English expression like "Woah, the floodgates really opened on my car on the drive home!" No - actual floodgates were in the cosmology of the time - and the Noah story is dressed up in exactly THIS cosmology.

So there's the scientific questions about what happened.
Then there's the theological language dressing up what happened and explaining the SIGNIFICANCE.
Just like Revelation doesn't outline a future history, but the theological significance of the 1000 years we are in now (and have been in for 2000 years.)
Cosmology.png
 
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Timtofly

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Yeah, so again we have literary and literal.
You believe in literal floodgates do you?
This is the actual cosmology the Israelites were using when they wrote the flood narrative.
No such thing as Israelite cosmology. You have successfully removed the Torah as being the Word of God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9

"For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming. When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders."

Calling the Torah, just something a group of ancient people thought up is removing the Torah from God's Word. Paul was not talking about a spiritual apostasy of the soul, as in salvation. He was talking about changing the very Word of God and turning it into mythology. Humans today call what Satan started 2500 years ago with the Greeks: science. Satan's apostasy deals with knowledge. A knowledge so benign, even the elect will be deceived and it will not effect their eternal destination, but it will be a sign of the end and the Second Coming. Many in the church will have totally bought into Satan's masterpiece of deception.
 
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Timtofly

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How'd they manage to avoid having one?
It is called God and God's Word given to Moses. What was presented is a modern interpretation as if some ancient tribe called "Israel" had created their own cosmology without any input from God. It has been presented by some over the years as if Moses is some legendary person, not a real human along with any other legendary figures like Noah and Abraham. Just "fire side chats" from long ago.
 
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jgr

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"For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming. When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders."

Who conjured this from where?
 
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eclipsenow

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It is called God and God's Word given to Moses. What was presented is a modern interpretation as if some ancient tribe called "Israel" had created their own cosmology without any input from God. It has been presented by some over the years as if Moses is some legendary person, not a real human along with any other legendary figures like Noah and Abraham. Just "fire side chats" from long ago.

Jesus told parables in the language and common tropes of the day.
Genesis 1 to 11 is a distinct unit within Genesis, and they definitely draw on Ancient Middle Eastern Cosmology in the Noah story.
Cosmology.png
 
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Timtofly

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Jesus told parables in the language and common tropes of the day.
Genesis 1 to 11 is a distinct unit within Genesis, and they definitely draw on Ancient Middle Eastern Cosmology in the Noah story.
This may be ancient cosmology. It is not taken from God's Word. God's Word did not come through any ancient cosmology nor fire side chats passed down from generation to generation.
 
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eclipsenow

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Gen 7...all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

Gen 8...Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.

Cosmology.png
 
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eclipsenow

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Go on about the graphics all you want, but the evidence for this system is to be found in our bibles.
______________________

Heavens, Earth, and underworld[edit]
The Hebrew Bible depicted a three-part world, with the heavens (shamayim) above, Earth (eres) in the middle, and the underworld (sheol) below.[24] After the 4th century BCE this was gradually replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens.[9]

The cosmic ocean[edit]
Further information: Tehom
The three-part world of heavens, Earth and underworld floated in Tehom, the mythological cosmic ocean, which covered the Earth until God created the firmament to divide it into upper and lower portions and reveal the dry land;[25] the world has been protected from the cosmic ocean ever since by the solid dome of the firmament.[26]

The tehom is, or was, hostile to God: it confronted him at the beginning of the world (Psalm 104:6ff) but fled from the dry land at his rebuke; he has now set a boundary or bar for it which it cannot pass (Jeremiah 5:22 and Job 38:8–10).[27] The cosmic sea is the home of monsters which God conquers: "By his power he stilled the sea, by his understanding he smote Rahab!" (Job 26:12f).[27] (Rahab is an exclusively Hebrew sea-monster; others, including Leviathan and the tannin, or dragons, are found in Ugaritic texts; it is not entirely clear whether they are identical with Sea or are Sea's helpers).[28] The "bronze sea" which stood in the forecourt of the Temple in Jerusalem probably corresponds to the "sea" in Babylonian temples, representing the apsu, the cosmic ocean.[29]

In the New Testament Jesus' conquest of the stormy sea shows the conquering deity overwhelming the forces of chaos: a mere word of command from the Son of God stills the foe (Mark 4:35–41), who then tramples over his enemy, (Jesus walking on water - Mark 6:45, 47–51).[30] In Revelation, where the Archangel Michael expels the dragon (Satan) from heaven ("And war broke out in heaven, with Michael and his angels attacking the dragon..." – Revelation 12:7), the motif can be traced back to Leviathan in Israel and to Tiamat, the chaos-ocean, in Babylonian myth, identified with Satan via an interpretation of the serpent in Eden.[31]

Heavens[edit]

The Tablet of Shamash depicting a solid sky with stars embedded holding up the heavenly ocean.[citation needed]
Form and structure[edit]
Further information: Firmament
In the Old Testament the word shamayim represented both the sky/atmosphere, and the dwelling place of God.[32] The raqia or firmament – the visible sky – was a solid inverted bowl over the Earth, coloured blue from the heavenly ocean above it.[33] Rain, snow, wind and hail were kept in storehouses outside the raqia, which had "windows" to allow them in – the waters for Noah's flood entered when the "windows of heaven" were opened.[34] Heaven extended down to and was coterminous with (i.e. it touched) the farthest edges of the Earth (e.g. Deuteronomy 4:32);[35] humans looking up from Earth saw the floor of heaven, which they saw also as God's throne, as made of clear blue lapis-lazuli (Exodus 24:9–10), and (Ezekiel 1:26).[36] Below that was a layer of water, the source of rain, which was separated from us by an impenetrable barrier, the firmament (Genesis 1:6–8). The rain may also be stored in heavenly cisterns (Job: 38:37) or storehouses (Deut 28:12) alongside the storehouses for wind, hail and snow.[37]

Grammatically the word shamayim can be either dual (two) or plural (more than two), without ruling out the singular (one).[38] As a result, it is not clear whether there were one, two, or more heavens in the Old Testament,[39] but most likely there was only one, and phrases such as "heaven of heavens" were meant to stress the vastness of God's realm.[35]

The Babylonians had a more complex idea of heaven, and during the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE) the influence of Babylonian cosmology led to the idea of a plurality of heavens among Jews.[40] This continued into the New Testament: Revelation apparently has only one heaven, but the Epistle to the Hebrews and the epistles to the Colossians and the Ephesians have more than one, although they don't specify how many,[41] and the apostle Paul tells of his visit to the third heaven, the place, according to contemporary thought, where the garden of Paradise is to be found.[42] The reference to the "third heaven" may refer to one of two cosmological systems present in antiquity: one where the cosmos was divided into seven heavens, and the other where the cosmos was divided into three.[43]
Biblical cosmology - Wikipedia
 
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eclipsenow

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You have presented the choice between "A": a literal thousand years, and "B": a symbolic figure. What if there is a third choice "C" as well? Meaning BOTH a literal thousand years, which is also highly symbolic as well?

I say this because the Revelation 20 millennium is said to have a point when it has "expired", and is "finished". If you are claiming that this expiration date for the millennium is purely symbolic, then I hate to see what you do with expiration dates on the foods that you purchase. Do you ignore those expiration dates? I hope not.
Because Revelation isn't like that.
Apocalyptic writing isn't like that.
Context dictates all.

Is this BOTH symbolic AND literal?

Lamb.png
 
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Because Revelation isn't like that.
Apocalyptic writing isn't like that.
Context dictates all.

Is this BOTH symbolic AND literal?

Yes, Revelation IS like that - both symbolic and literal. The symbols are interpreted for us in many places, giving their literal counterpart. Your stock image that you keep submitting is only one example of symbolism representing a literal thing. Those seven eyes on the Lamb of God are the Seven Spirits sent out into the earth. Horns are always representative of military power, and the number seven representative of completeness. The literal, physical, resurrected body of Christ, the Lamb of God, has complete power to make war against His enemies, and His complete oversight of the nations by the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth is represented by those seven "eyes".

The term "thousand" is reflective of ancient Israel's collective groups of a literal thousand men each who were battle ready. This idea is present in the 144,000, who were the spiritual battle force of resurrected individuals who went out to do battle with Satan's deception during those days of the early church when Satan was loosed on earth for a "short time".

The literal thousand years is simple to place on the calendar, and has great symbolic significance as well as being composed of a literal number of years.

A question for you: If it is a matter of complete indifference for the thousand years to be literal, then why are you and others making it so very important that it NOT be the specific number one thousand? You would be satisfied if this was 40 actual years, 1,002 years, 2,000 years and more - any number at all from one year to infinity, EXCEPT for the literal thousand years number. Anything but that particular number. This is inconsistent. If it really doesn't matter how many years this period is composed of, then why can't the literal thousand years be one of those options?
 
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eclipsenow

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Yes, Revelation IS like that - both symbolic and literal. The symbols are interpreted for us in many places, giving their literal counterpart.
But not always in the same book.


Your stock image that you keep submitting is only one example of symbolism representing a literal thing.

Depends what you mean by 'literal thing'. Salvation is a pretty advanced concept about being safe with God - but is it a literal thing? It's a theological concept. Revelation explains theological concepts through comic-book like images.



Those seven eyes on the Lamb of God are the Seven Spirits sent out into the earth.
The text says that, but what does it mean? Do we worship one Triune God, or a God with more spirits?

Horns are always representative of military power, and the number seven representative of completeness.
Ah, so the number 7 can mean something other than counting? Now we're getting somewhere! I agree with you.

The literal, physical, resurrected body of Christ,
Yes...


the Lamb of God,
SYMBOL!

has complete power to make war against His enemies, and His complete oversight of the nations by the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth is represented by those seven "eyes".
I don't know that the seven spirits represent eyes - I'll have to look into that. I thought they were associated with the candles around the 7 churches.

But in fact historians tell us there were 10 large churches known across Asia Minor at the time. So why did John choose 7? It's a message - that these letters are to and about both those churches at the time, and this letter is to and about ALL churches across ALL time because it is ALL apocalyptic symbolism. As any of us would recognise if we had bothered to read the other bits of the genre between 250BC to 250AD. It's like learning to write poems in Pentameter or Haiku - there are RULES!

Characteristics[edit]

The Seven trumpets.
Apocalyptic revelations are typically mediated through such means as dreams and visions (the ancient world did not distinguish between these), angels, and heavenly journeys.[2] These serve to connect two sets of axes, the spatial axis which has God and the heavenly realm above and the human world below, and the temporal axis of the present and the future.[2] The revelation thus demonstrates that God rules the visible world, and that the present days are leading to an end-time in which divine justice will be done and God's rule will become visible.[2] Mythic images with their roots in texts from the Hebrew Bible and rich in symbolic meaning are a significant characteristic of the genre.[3] Further characteristics include transcendentalism, mythology, pessimistic cosmological and historical surveys, dualism (including a doctrine of two ages and the division of time into periods), numerology (e.g., the "number of the beast" in Revelation), claims of ecstasy and inspiration, and esotericism.[4]

Examples[edit]
Jewish apocalypses include chapters 7-12 of the Book of Daniel Daniel (the previous chapters do not fall into the apocalyptic genre) and non-canonical works such as 1 and 2 Enoch, 4 Ezra, 2 Baruch, 3 Baruch, the Apocalypse of Abraham, the Testament of Levi 2-5, the Apocalypse of Zephaniah, and portions of the Book of Jubilees and the Testament of Abraham; these are all Second Temple works. Christian apocalypses include the Revelation of John, the "little apocalypse" of Mark 13:5-37 and the equivalent passages in Matthew 24:4-36 and Luke 21:8-36 in which Jesus supposedly predicts the destruction of Jerusalem and the coming of the abomination of desolation, and various passages in the Pauline epistles, the pseudo-Pauline 2 Thessalonians, and other letters such as Jude, James, and 1 and 2 Peter.[13]
Apocalypse - Wikipedia

The term "thousand" is reflective of ancient Israel's collective groups of a literal thousand men each who were battle ready.
Not at all - it means either 'forever' as some of the verses I have quoted show, or "a great number". Please explain how these verses are groups of a literal thousand men.

Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."

= Is the literal futurist really going to argue that God only owns a thousand hills? What about the other million or so on Earth?

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"

= God was only going to grow his people a thousand times - from the literal number of people standing before Moses that day? What happened to more than the stars in the sky and grains of sand on a beach?

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."

= Is it a thousand or ten-thousand? Is it a gazillion or ten gazillion?

Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."

= You mean there are limits on God's kingdom - it will ONLY grow 1000 times in size from Isaiah's lifetime?

Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

= I love this one - as I've been a soldier. The image of a Sampson having a bookkeeper counting his kills is just hilarious. "997, 998, 999, 1000 - that's it Sampson! You're done for the day! Stand down Sampson - I'm writing this down!"

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."

= Could Job's 'friends' actually answer his suffering 1 time in a thousand, or is the emphasis of this story that they had NO answers - only God had the authority to answer Job (and decided not to tell Job the real reason anyway. Job was just to trust God anyway, without an answer!)

GOD AND TIME SEEMS TO ALWAYS BE SYMBOLIC:-

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

= Is the literal futurist really bold enough to insist God is only faithful for a thousand generations? A generation was 40 years - so in 40,000 years God is unfaithful!!!???

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"

= Well, which is it? Forever, or a thousand generations / 40,000 years?

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."

= Is one day at church better than 1000 days aka 2.7 years, or is this a qualitative assessment of where it is better to DWELL for a long time?





The literal thousand years is simple to place on the calendar, and has great symbolic significance as well as being composed of a literal number of years.
That's simply not true of how the OT uses 1000 applied to time - see above.

A question for you: If it is a matter of complete indifference for the thousand years to be literal,
I never said it was a matter of 'complete indifference.' It's a tiny paragraph that comforts Christians that if they are martyred in these 'gazillion years' between the Lord's Resurrection and his Return that they will be safe - and end-timers have turned it into the thin edge of the wedge that sometimes seems to break apart how they even understand how the Old and New Covenants fit together! It's seems to break a rational Biblical Theology. And worse - it makes the Apostle John out to be a indifferent to the churches he is writing to. Rather than the sermon on suffering Amils read, futurists want to rip it out of context and shoot it off 2000 years in the future. That makes the Apostle John seem callous. He's already said this stuff was about to start soon, the time was near, he shares in it (the tribulation!) and he wants them to 'take his message to heart' (obey it.) It sounds like he's going to talk about the Roman persecution. Then he in effect says, "You think you've got problems - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years! There's going to be this GREAT TRIBULATION that will make you watching your kids cut in half look like nothing!"

I mean, AS IF!

The reality is the bible only uses 1000 when counting literal men or literal items - but frequently uses it as symbolic when it comes to theological concepts.
 
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The reality is the bible only uses 1000 when counting literal men or literal items - but frequently uses it as symbolic when it comes to theological concepts.

Well, the 1,000 number is a symbol which also has an actual "expiration" year and a "finishing" point in Revelation 20:5 and 7. This means it also has a certain fixed numerical value of a literal thousand, as well as having symbolic significance. It is more than just a "theological concept".

The examples you give of a "thousand hills", a "thousand generations", etc. make no mention in them of an expiration or a finishing point, but the Revelation 20 millennium does do this.

And you did not address my question: Why must the 1,000 number represent any number at all except for a literal thousand years, if the numerical value of this number is immaterial? If it can mean any possible amount of years whatever, then why is the literal number of a thousand years the ONLY number that it cannot possibly represent?

By your estimation, this millennium could indicate any number up to 999 years, or any number after 1001 years, but heaven help us, it can't possibly be exactly 1,000 years. Any number at all except that particular one. Why is that?
 
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eclipsenow

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Well, the 1,000 number is a symbol which also has an actual "expiration" year and a "finishing" point in Revelation 20:5 and 7.
Of course - John is using it in the sense of 'a gazillion'. A very long time. He knows this period of history will end. I've not suggested otherwise.


This means it also has a certain fixed numerical value
Yes - I'm with you so far! Keep going!

of a literal thousand,
Ba bow! Sorry - thank you for playing.
I was with you until this point - but now you're using your presuppositions to just reassert your conclusions. That's circular. It's one of the most metaphorical numbers in the whole bible being referenced in one of the most symbolic metaphorical books in the bible. What does that indicate it's going to be!?


It is more than just a "theological concept".
So you assert - it's just you lack any evidence.
As I said, OF COURSE the time period is limited. It will have an end.
OF COURSE the Greek interprets to 1000. He wouldn't be using their symbol for 'a gazillion' otherwise! So the question is, does anything in the passage indicate it's literal? Not at all - because it references the same symbols and thrones and martyrs coming alive in heaven (which no human can see because heaven doesn't have photons!) etc and other visions that the rest of the book contains! I mean do you think we can SEE the GWT? Hades? Are these literal?


The examples you give of a "thousand hills", a "thousand generations", etc. make no mention in them of an expiration or a finishing point, but the Revelation 20 millennium does do this.
Sure - but they sure show what a metaphor 1000 can be for eternity or a very big number. But that's just one way of using it. There's the 1000 hills, 1000 fallen to Sampson's jawbones, etc. John is saying there are a gazillion years Jesus will reign over in this strange time we live in now - but it WILL come to an end. This is not a contraindication for 1000 being symbolic at all, just as when something is described as "1000, no 10,000!"

And you did not address my question: Why must the 1,000 number represent any number at all except for a literal thousand years, if the numerical value of this number is immaterial?
Because John is describing how Satan is bound from 'deceiving the nations', a process which began during Jesus ministry and continues to this day - 2000 years later.


When the seventy returned from their preaching mission, they said to Jesus, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name." Jesus replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:17-18). These words, needless to say, must not be interpreted as suggesting Satan's literal descent from heaven at that moment. They must rather be understood to mean that Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow—that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place. In this instance Satan's fall or binding is associated directly with the missionary activity of Jesus' disciples.​

Another passage which relates the restriction of Satan's activities to Christ's missionary outreach is John 12:31-32: "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." It is interesting to note that the verb translated "cast out" (ekball) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3, "and threw (ball) him [Satan] into the pit." Even more important, however, is the observation that Satan's being "cast out" is here associated with the fact that not only Jews but men of all nationalities shall be drawn to Christ as he hangs on the cross.

The binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3, therefore, means that throughout the gospel age in which we now live the influence of Satan, though certainly not annihilated, is so curtailed that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to the nations of the world. Because of the binding of Satan during this present age, the nations cannot conquer the church, but the church is conquering the nations.
The Millennium of Revelation 20 | Monergism
 
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