"On White Privilege"

[Rick Otto]

The biggest problem facing a black family trying to buy a home is thug life, not the lenders pushing them into loans that they would not give a white family or not giving them a loan at all?

The problem a black job applicant faces is thug life, not the discrimination based on his first name?

The problem a black person faces when answering an ad online for a room share is thug life, not the people who deny their request due to their name or skin color?

The problem a black person faces with unlawful and unjustified stops by the police is thug life, not the racist practices of the police?

The problem of police exchanging racist, homophobic and sexist tweets is thug life?

I disagree that racism is a problem that will not go away. However, there is a sense of irony when black people are told to take personal responsibility, like I must take responsibility for someone else treating me unfairly because of their perception of what someone else (not me) has done or based on what they've seen on TV?

He didn't say it is the problem, he said it is a bigger problem, but he doesn't see how the bigger problem is an effect of the "smaller" problem. He doesn't see how the category is organised.
The way we can see them as the same problem is in their effect.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Post that study.

Found it!

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/2170-new-study-by-professor-david-s-abrams-confirms#.VyVs8pjn_qA

From that article...

"While the technique eliminates the problem of “unobserved variables” and demonstrates the salience of race, it has limits of its own. The results don’t show in which direction racial preferences tilt, whether in favor of blacks or whites."

It's really a good article and study...because it shows the complexity of showing "racial bias" in something like sentencing. It's not as simple as having a statistic that shows blacks are incarcerated or stopped more frequently than whites.

Consequently, while looking for this article, I found out some other facts. Did you realize that the discrepancy between whites and blacks in being charged with violent crimes (roughly 4x more for blacks, if I remember correctly) is a result of blacks committing violent crimes 4 times more often than whites? That's a research point that's almost universally agreed upon. Wanna hear another one? They haven't found any statistical correlation between the shootings of black men by police and the race of the cop. Black cops are just as likely to shoot black men as white cops are!

 

[SummerMadness]

Job Skill and Black Male Wage Discrimination

Abstract
Objective. Debate over the causes of wage inequality have raised suggestions that, rather than discrimination, skill differences may be the reason for racial wage disparities. The purpose of this research is to examine what impact on-the-job skill differences have on wage inequality.

Method. I regress the log wage onto race and a measure of skill. The Multi-City Study of Urban Inequality Employer Survey is particularly useful in this analysis because it contains the employer's evaluation of the worker's relative skill against other workers.

Result. When white and black men have the same employer's competitive performance rating, rather than decreasing racial wage differences, the differences actually increase.

Conclusion. The wage gap is not a skills gap, but evidence of racial discrimination in the labor market.

If anyone would like a copy of the article, please PM me.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Right. Put into office by those hateful privileged whites that are, er, trying to keep black people down.

Put there by guilty consciousness, and the hope that if a noticably black man is elected president, all of the minorities (especially black people) will stop complaining about injustices and "get over it" even if nothing has changed. Minorities will ignore the injustice going on currently against them, and focus on the being happy just because a black guy is president (whether or not he is the best candidate - black people should just be happy he was allowed to be president.) Because, how can there be racism against minorities, especially blacks if we have a black president? It is impossible.​

And, if anyone still complains, they will just get dismissed by being accused of focusing on the past, and by being mocked. This is besides the fact most all of the complaints are valid. They will be accused of putting their own black president in office (despite white people out populate blacks 6:1, and blacks are already stereotypical non voters.) They will be accused of being violent "thugs" (new buzzword if you are too scared to call a black guy a n**ger,) and accused of being directionless for having the audacity to feel some way other than greatful that police can openly kill black men and women on camera and get away. All the while, the accusers (perhaps like you, but the ones on this site know who they are) revile the dead by continuously calling them thugs, insinuating that they deserved what they got, and digging up history posthumously in order to [in their head] justify their name calling.

 

[Rick Otto]

Found it!

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/2170-new-study-by-professor-david-s-abrams-confirms#.VyVs8pjn_qA

From that article...

"While the technique eliminates the problem of “unobserved variables” and demonstrates the salience of race, it has limits of its own. The results don’t show in which direction racial preferences tilt, whether in favor of blacks or whites."

It's really a good article and study...because it shows the complexity of showing "racial bias" in something like sentencing. It's not as simple as having a statistic that shows blacks are incarcerated or stopped more frequently than whites.

Consequently, while looking for this article, I found out some other facts. Did you realize that the discrepancy between whites and blacks in being charged with violent crimes (roughly 4x more for blacks, if I remember correctly) is a result of blacks committing violent crimes 4 times more often than whites? That's a research point that's almost universally agreed upon. Wanna hear another one? They haven't found any statistical correlation between the shootings of black men by police and the race of the cop. Black cops are just as likely to shoot black men as white cops are!

Are blacks 4x more likely to end up in circumstances that contribute to violence?

...But I take your point on complexity. I have "been a victim" of "black privilege" - that is to say, I have been excluded from some activities because of my skin color. I was the only white guy in a band for awhile. Interesting times.

 

[nightflight]

Are blacks 4x more likely to end up in circumstances that contribute to violence?

...But I take your point on complexity. I have "been a victim" of "black privilege" - that is to say, I have been excluded from some activities because of my skin color. I was the only white guy in a band for awhile. Interesting times.

Are you Dave Matthews?

 

[Ana the Ist]

He refers to being a "white boy" outrunning "black guys" as if they're supposed to catch him because they're black.

My mistake.

The point is that the "default" is treated as white. White is treated as "normal." Why call it flesh tone if it does not reflect flesh tone (which cannot be relegated to a single color)?

If I had to guess, the guy who made the color wanted to make a color that looked like his flesh-tone. When he succeeded, he called it flesh tone...without realizing of course that his choice would become a symbol of oppression years later.

When I was a child, they did not have flesh tone crayons, as Crayola and other companies had already changed them. If they already changed it then what are you complaining about?! Again, people throw a fit when you illustrate an example for them. The issue was made a racial issue by those who decided to call it flesh tone. Someone points out, "Well, flesh tone isn't accurate, it doesn't match my skin color or most people of my ethnicity, or that person's ethnicity..." Why are you making everything racial! Perhaps not referring to at as flesh tone in the first place would help?

If it's not a problem...why use it as an example? Generally when I use examples of a problem...I use problems. For this article, the author decided to choose a non-problem as an example of a problem (stupidly) and got called on it. I have no idea why you're continuing to defend it as an "example".

So you have to act like it's the end of the world or nothing is a problem at all? Got it.

When you want the whole world to acknowledge a problem....(or at least all whites in the U.S. to acknowledge it)....it would make sense to pick an example less trivial and well....childish.

You do not need everyone to agree, but when there is a political faction that controls about half the government, you're going to need more people that understand the problem rather than calling it a myth. You can't push forward initiatives if there is a group that actively blocks the process.

Any initiatives that you're interested in pushing forward to end white privilege? Judging by your analogy here, that's the end goal isn't it?

Jamal, Malik, Imani, Khadijah, these are not unusual names, but they are popular among African Americans. If these names appear on a resume, they are less likely to get a callback for an interview. Why should African Americans not name their children using common names among their ethnic group? That makes absolutely no sense, unless you're demanding that they conform to a white majority. In effect you're saying, if you want to be treated as an equal, then you need to erase your cultural identity. Yep, nothing could be possibly wrong with that attitude.

You'll probably find this shocking, but "Americanizing" names is something that just about every white ethnic group was expected to do...so they could find employment, avoid discrimination, fit in, etc.

I understand wanting to stand out, hang onto traditions, and so on...but there is a pattern amongst people who decide to do that. They tend to get left behind....it's human nature.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Are blacks 4x more likely to end up in circumstances that contribute to violence?

...But I take your point on complexity. I have "been a victim" of "black privilege" - that is to say, I have been excluded from some activities because of my skin color. I was the only white guy in a band for awhile. Interesting times.

My guess would be that yes, they are more likely. I'm not suggesting this number is a result of them being black...just pointing out that their incarceration isn't a result of them being black either.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm not interested in blame. To me, this isn't about blame, it's about building a better tomorrow.
Also, I'm primarily looking at my own community with an eye to fixing things, so it's not a matter of projecting problems elsewhere.

But what do you feel is the greatest difficulty you face?

At my work...we jokingly call it the white ceiling. As in, "the place beyond which no one white will rise". I'll explain what I mean while keeping it as simple as possible.

I work for a department of the federal government in a law enforcement position. Let's suppose that 100 agents in my position existed...it would probably break down like this...

98 are men. Of those men...
90 are white.
5 are black.
2 are latino.
1 is asian.

2 females are in that 100 and...
1 is white and 1 is latino...

For these 100 agents...supervisors are designated for every 10. Those supervisors are chosen from the current pool of agents based upon (supposedly) experience, work done, education, etc.

You would imagine that statistically, I would have 8-9 white male supervisors...just as a fact of brute math, right? It's a simple matter of statistical likelihood....right?

Wrong.

Of those 10 supervisors...3 might be white males, 2 would be whatever females hold this job regardless of race. 3 would be latino males and 2 would be black males.

You're probably thinking "so what? I bet those minorities and women worked much harder to achieve those positions"...but if you worked with me for even a week or just interviewed them, you'd realize that's not the case. Of those 7-8 non white male supervisors, maybe 2 are as qualified as the white male supervisors. For the rest, the standards have been lowered. I even had a female supervisor who never had a college degree, previous law enforcement experience, military experience...and only 3 years as an agent!

Normally, this doesn't bother me...I know that if i were in their position, I'd do the same. So what if I don't deserve it...if I was offered increased pay and recognition, I'd take it. The problem is when they have to rely on me...a white guy with 10 years experience, a college degree, and multiple recognitions for my service....to do their job because they don't know how.

That's really the only time it bothers me...that and when I'm told I'm part of an institution that systematically gives privilege to white people. Can you imagine the irony? I work for that system and it's rigged against my favor because I don't have a vagina or darker skin!

 

[Paidiske]

I can see why that would burn. I've been in a similar position (working for a man who didn't understand his job or mine, and needed me to effectively steer the department). It cuts.

But are you able to recognise that your experience is not typical? That for every one person like you, there are many people who are not white men, watching white men promoted above them or given the best opportunities?

Wouldn't it be better if we could get to a point where merit really was what mattered?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thank you. I agree with your first paragraph wholeheartedly.
You second paragraph is true in some cases, but I believe generally the complaint is legit.
Blaming perpetrators and denial of personal responsibility are legitimate tools of legitimate victims.

Human nature being unavoidable is a reason to manage it responsibly.

I can understand that...

It's a difficult juxtaposition between personal responsibility and privilege. It's a chicken or egg type of situation.

A poor black family says it's white privilege keeping them down. The dad never had anything and had to work hard for what little they have...but is that because of white privilege? Or is it because his dad squandered his talent/opportunity and got himself a destructive crack habit? Did the grandfather squander his chances and get a crack habit because of poor choices? Or was it the cumulative effect of white privilege?

My point is that we only talk about one side of this equation...we never discuss the personal responsibility. It's easy to point your finger at whites and blame them....It's hard to look at your own community and ask "what did we do wrong?"

 

[Ana the Ist]

I can see why that would burn. I've been in a similar position (working for a man who didn't understand his job or mine, and needed me to effectively steer the department). It cuts.

But are you able to recognise that your experience is not typical? That for every one person like you, there are many people who are not white men, watching white men promoted above them or given the best opportunities?

Wouldn't it be better if we could get to a point where merit really was what mattered?

It would...but given that the system favors whites (with regard to education for example) wouldn't you expect more of those opportunities to go to whites and minorities would have to work harder for them?

 

[Paidiske]

It would...but given that the system favors whites (with regard to education for example) wouldn't you expect more of those opportunities to go to whites and minorities would have to work harder for them?

But this is why we have people arguing for an education system which offers opportunity to all; that's one of the key agenda items in a social justice platform.

In the short term, sure, it's hard for disadvantaged groups to compete on merit. So put the educational supports in place, put the employment programmes in place, and so forth, so that merit can actually be recognised and cultivated.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I get that.
I bet you are aware of a "theist privilege" many are unaware of.

Indeed. Luckily, my job has strong enough anti-discrimination policies and a union that ensures no- matter what atheist vitriol I spew...none of my higher-ups dare punish me for it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

First problem with those statics is, they are over 30 years old. Have anything more recent?

Second, they didn’t mention if rich black kids commit more violent and earned those higher incarceration rates than rich white kids. Many of the rich black kids feel a need to show they have street cred for fear of the appearance of “selling out”, or “acting white” and this often results in problems with the law.

It isn’t just white police officers who are arresting black people in disproportionate numbers, black police officers do this as well (there is an attempt in many big cities to have the police force to represent the community they patrol in ethnically) so obviously there is a lot more than just race that is going on here.


Ken

I was most surprised by the idea that 30 years ago...an income of 68000 was considered "rich".

 

[Ana the Ist]

But this is why we have people arguing for an education system which offers opportunity to all; that's one of the key agenda items in a social justice platform.

In the short term, sure, it's hard for disadvantaged groups to compete on merit. So put the educational supports in place, put the employment programmes in place, and so forth, so that merit can actually be recognised and cultivated.

I'm all for an education system that gives everyone opportunity. I'm not at all for "lowering the bar" for blacks or minorities. I'm not for, for example, lowering english language standards for those who don't talk good (joke intended). I'm not for different sets of standards which make things easier for you if you're from a different race...that isn't equality.

You may have noticed throughout this thread, proponents of ending "white privilege" never mention the "solutions" to the "problem" as they see it. Haven't you wondered why?

It's because ultimately, the only way to negate this "privilege" is to lower the standards for minorities.

 

[Rick Otto]

Indeed. Luckily, my job has strong enough anti-discrimination policies and a union that ensures no- matter what atheist vitriol I spew...none of my higher-ups dare punish me for it.

Good for you. I think that's fair. The 2 creeps I work for make over 150,000 a year each, and pay me less per hour than when they had my job. They haven't given us raises in ten years and took away the half a health benefit they had, in 2008 " because of the economy" and they have the gall to wonder out loud why our cars are junk. They believe they are Christians. I wonder.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm all for an education system that gives everyone opportunity. I'm not at all for "lowering the bar" for blacks or minorities. I'm not for, for example, lowering english language standards for those who don't talk good (joke intended). I'm not for different sets of standards which make things easier for you if you're from a different race...that isn't equality.

You may have noticed throughout this thread, proponents of ending "white privilege" never mention the "solutions" to the "problem" as they see it. Haven't you wondered why?

It's because ultimately, the only way to negate this "privilege" is to lower the standards for minorities.

Or raise the standards of their support infrastructure to match the majority, which no one is willing to do. Education doesn't happen in a vacuum.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The problem a black person faces with unlawful and unjustified stops by the police is thug life, not the racist practices of the police?

You could ask Michael Brown about that...if he were really looking forward to going to school like his parents claimed he was.

 

[Paidiske]

You may have noticed throughout this thread, proponents of ending "white privilege" never mention the "solutions" to the "problem" as they see it. Haven't you wondered why?

It's because ultimately, the only way to negate this "privilege" is to lower the standards for minorities.

I don't know that I agree...

When I talk about improving educational standards, I don't have in mind lower entrance scores for non-whites, for example. I have in mind things like intensive (free) tutoring available to children in poverty, I have in mind adequate state funding of education to keep class sizes small, classes adequately resourced and no need for people to go into crippling debt for an education.

And so on. As Rick just posted, resourcing everyone to achieve their best, not accepting lower standards.