"On White Privilege"

[Rick Otto]

It is political ideology. And I've seen enough times where white disadvantage is handwaved away to know that. Use of stats is one thing. Cherry-picking stats to prop up an ideology is another.

Does calling it political ideology make it less real?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because it's easier to ignore the phenomenon by spitting out bad analogies? My favorite is "black people are more likely to commit crimes." Mind you they conveniently ignore that when a black and white person with the same background, criminal history, socioeconomic status, etc. commit the same crime, the black person receives the harsher punishment. That's the disparity, it shouldn't be there, yet people continue to argue it doesn't exist (despite it being a measurable thing)

Do you have a study that actually controls for all these things...or did you just make it up?

Also...what do you mean by "the same crime"? If one man gets into a fight with another...goes to his car, gets a gun, and goes back and shoots the first man, that's murder. A man goes to mug a little old lady in a wheelchair and she doesn't want to give up her purse and he shoots her....that's also murder. You do realize though, they aren't "the same crime" and one might receive a harsher sentence...right?

 

[Gadarene]

Does calling it political ideology make it less real?

No, not at all, the label has nothing to do with the state of affairs, but the "you have political ideology, we have facts" sneer coming from an ideologue is just yaaaaaaawn

 

[Rick Otto]

No, not at all, the label has nothing to do with the state of affairs, but the "you have political ideology, we have facts" sneer coming from an ideologue is just yaaaaaaawn

Thank you.
How would you summarize the state of affairs then?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Does calling it political ideology make it less real?

Apparently it does for rturner76. He thinks if your opinion is a result of political ideology it isn't valid or backed up with facts.

 

[pakicetus]

What are the facts? Lay them out and let's talk about them.

You already know the facts. I remember when I explained some of them and you responded, "I can't speak for the person you're responding to...but I've been aware of the racial disparities you're talking about for a long time. It's not something I like, nor do I think it's right..." You then went on to minimize the significance of racial discrimination, shrug your shoulders, and say "If you want to describe it as 'horrible' and 'cruel'...then go ahead, but that's life sometimes isn't it? Horrible and cruel..." You shouldn't pretend that you particularly care about racial discrimination, and you shouldn't pretend that you aren't aware of the evidence for it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thank you.
How would you summarize the state of affairs then?

I would say there's definitely still racism in the U.S....but it's apparent in every race and ethnicity. It's a part of human nature that's unavoidable.

The narrative of white privilege, however, is an attempt to gain favor, advantages, etc through the use of blame and denial of personal responsibility.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're already aware of the facts. I remember when I explained some of them and you responded, "I can't speak for the person you're responding to...but I've been aware of the racial disparities you're talking about for a long time. It's not something I like, nor do I think it's right..." You then went on to minimize the significance of racial discrimination, shrug your shoulders, and say "If you want to describe it as 'horrible' and 'cruel'...then go ahead, but that's life sometimes isn't it? Horrible and cruel..." You shouldn't pretend that you care about the facts or racial disparities when you clearly don't.

I care when blame is laid at my feet for things I haven't done. I care when one community tells another "you need to fix yourselves" while turning a blind eye to their own community.

Edit- I also care when I'm told I need to acknowledge someone's difficulties but mine are ignored completely.

 

[SummerMadness]

Nobody is avoiding personal responsibility? That's good news....then you'd agree that if a young black man commits a crime, gets caught, gets sentenced...his situation is really more his fault than the result of a racist criminal justice system, right?

Racism in the criminal justice system is not being punished for a crime; the racism is a white person committing the same crime not receiving the same punishment (everything else being equal). That's unequal treatment, the system needs reform.

Why? Why do I have this advantage if not for racism?

The advantage is a byproduct of the past, racism is largely responsible for the privilege, not because you will it, but because at one point African Americans were slaves. Then there was segregation, not leave out redlining, police brutality, job and wage discrimination, etc. What you're demanding is someone call you a racist, when systemic issues are not necessarily caused by current racist activities.

I read a study that managed to show that race was a factor in prison sentencing...but they couldn't figure out if it was an advantage for blacks or whites...just that it's a factor. The problem is there are so many other factors, previous criminal history, severity of the crime, etc, that you'd be hard pressed to find an apples to apples comparison.

Post that study.

 

[rturner76]

Nobody is avoiding personal responsibility? That's good news....then you'd agree that if a young black man commits a crime, gets caught, gets sentenced...his situation is really more his fault than the result of a racist criminal justice system, right?

Right

Why? Why do I have this advantage if not for racism?

The past system of racism has put the white racein a osition of dominance yes but it'snot every day people who are racists that are perpetuating this system. It is already set up and we are just used to it. White people have always run things they have always been the directors producers and more than that the top banking executives who really control the money and run the country


Schools are funded by the communities around them. Do whites actually make more money for the same jobs? Is there some research behind this? I used to think the same thing about women getting paid less until I learned it's attributable to things like the amount of overtime men work compared to women.

There is research on this I think from the Southern Poverty Law Center or I know there are many other places you can find these statistics. I learned about it mostly in my college sociology classes.


I read a study that managed to show that race was a factor in prison sentencing...but they couldn't figure out if it was an advantage for blacks or whites...just that it's a factor. The problem is there are so many other factors, previous criminal history, severity of the crime, etc, that you'd be hard pressed to find an apples to apples comparison.

I think you will find most if no tall studies show harsher sentencing for minorities especially for drug related crime.


Do you know that? I consider myself a left-leaning moderate. I've also studied statistics long enough to know what they do show and what they don't.



What are the facts? Lay them out and let's talk about them.

I will look this up further. I want to get to some more responses but for now I'm pretty sure in education, housing, medical care, employment, and I'm sure many other categories, white males have more advantage. I will try to look some things up I guess I'll just start with Google and see what government and university websites I can find


My responses to your other questions are in the quote.I don't know how to break it up to answer them separately.

 

[Paidiske]

I care when blame is laid at my feet for things I haven't done. I care when one community tells another "you need to fix yourselves" while turning a blind eye to their own community.

Edit- I also care when I'm told I need to acknowledge someone's difficulties but mine are ignored completely.

I'm not interested in blame. To me, this isn't about blame, it's about building a better tomorrow.
Also, I'm primarily looking at my own community with an eye to fixing things, so it's not a matter of projecting problems elsewhere.

But what do you feel is the greatest difficulty you face?

 

[pakicetus]

I care when blame is laid at my feet for things I haven't done. I care when one community tells another "you need to fix yourselves" while turning a blind eye to their own community.

Edit- I also care when I'm told I need to acknowledge someone's difficulties but mine are ignored completely.

None of these are good reasons to shrug at racial injustice and minimize other people's struggles. If you know the pain of seeing your own difficulties ignored by others, that's not a good reason to ignore their difficulties and make the situation twice as bad.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Racism in the criminal justice system is not being punished for a crime; the racism is a white person committing the same crime not receiving the same punishment (everything else being equal). That's unequal treatment, the system needs reform.

Never seen a situation where "everything else was equal" ...again, do you have a study that backs this up?

The advantage is a byproduct of the past, racism is largely responsible for the privilege, not because you will it, but because at one point African Americans were slaves. Then there was segregation, not leave out redlining, police brutality, job and wage discrimination, etc. What you're demanding is someone call you a racist, when systemic issues are not necessarily caused by current racist activities.

What would you like me to do about past racism and it's results? I wish these things didn't happen...but they did.

Post that study.

I already did in another thread maybe a couple months back...I should be able to find it. While I'm doing that, you go ahead and back up your claims with some research...ok?

 

[Rick Otto]

It's becoming wildly obvious to me that they believe that complaining is a solution unto itself.

Sadly, to the rest of us...it just looks like complaining.

Sorry, I am not "us"... complaining is a good thing.
Wheels that don't squeak don't get greased.
You don't sound left leaning at all to me, sis.
You just sound annoyed about hearing complaints.
I grew up being called n-hair. I finally began to think those people can't be as bad as the people calling me that. I found out they are both better and worse. They are people, and every people has privileges for their own.

 

[Rick Otto]

None of these are good reasons to shrug at racial injustice and minimize other people's struggles. If you know the pain of seeing your own difficulties ignored by others, that's not a good reason to ignore their difficulties and make the situation twice as bad.

That's the way I see it.

 

[rturner76]

No, what's going on is you believe your pandering will bring a payoff of safety and alleviation of your genetic guilt. It won't.

Why would I have genetic guilt? Safety from whom? Also who are you trying to prove yourself to as long as we're taking it there? Your denial of the facts to suit your own bigoted opinion is n order to belong to what group of people?

 

[Rick Otto]

I would say there's definitely still racism in the U.S....but it's apparent in every race and ethnicity. It's a part of human nature that's unavoidable.

The narrative of white privilege, however, is an attempt to gain favor, advantages, etc through the use of blame and denial of personal responsibility.

Thank you. I agree with your first paragraph wholeheartedly.
You second paragraph is true in some cases, but I believe generally the complaint is legit.
Blaming perpetrators and denial of personal responsibility are legitimate tools of legitimate victims.

Human nature being unavoidable is a reason to manage it responsibly.

 

[Rick Otto]

Why would I have genetic guilt? Safety from whom? Also who are you trying to prove yourself to as long as we're taking it there? Your denial of the facts to suit your own bigoted opinion is n order to belong to what group of people?

I think he was talking to someone who thinks white privilege is a legitimate complaint, not you... but he's full of surprises, so I might be wrong.

 

[Chesterton]

This stuff needs to be mocked and ridiculed. It's evil. You have to assume they're teaching youngsters this twisted nonsense, all to perpetuate another generation of division and suspicion and perceived victimhood, and guarantee continued careers for race baiters like the SPLC. It does nothing but harm to both black folks and white folks.

 

[Rick Otto]

I care when blame is laid at my feet for things I haven't done. I care when one community tells another "you need to fix yourselves" while turning a blind eye to their own community.

Edit- I also care when I'm told I need to acknowledge someone's difficulties but mine are ignored completely.

I get that.
I bet you are aware of a "theist privilege" many are unaware of.