On Purgatory

[Albion]

Agreed and that is my point. The ONLY thing there is a "Prayer for the Dead".

Maccabees IS NOT in any way part of the Scriptures my friend. What I am saying is that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory
is based on a obscure statement in a book which is not the Bible.

OK, but Catholics think it is part of the Bible. My point was that it doesn't make any difference anyway.

The verse does not describe Purgatory, doesn't say anything about prayers for the dead having any effect, and this isn't mentioned in Maccabees by way of recommending or approving of the practice. It merely says that they did X.

 

[Major1]

OK, but Catholics think it is part of the Bible. My point was that it doesn't make any difference anyway.

The verse does not describe Purgatory, doesn't say anything about prayers for the dead having any effect, and this isn't mentioned in Maccabees by way of recommending or approving of the practice. It merely says that they did X.

That is true.

Remember also that most all denominations have their own translation of the Bible. They do that in order to say what they believe is....."IN the Bible".

It may very well be in THEIR translation but not be in the original Bible Scriptures.

 

[Albion]

Remember also that most all denominations have their own translation of the Bible. They do that in order to say what they believe is....."IN the Bible".

It may very well be in THEIR translation but not be in the original Bible Scriptures.

Well, I don't think that's correct to say. I've attended churches from Lutheran to Russian Orthodox to Episcopal to Anglican to Methodist to Presbyterian to Churches of Christ, and there were only two translations in use...total. They were the King James and the NIV. To be fair, if the selection of churches had been different and included a lot of non-denominational or cultic churches, other translations would probably have shown up, but to say that each denomination uses its own version isn't correct.

 

[Major1]

Well, I don't think that's correct to say. I've attended churches from Lutheran to Russian Orthodox to Episcopal to Anglican to Methodist to Presbyterian to Churches of Christ, and there were only two translations in use...total. They were the King James and the NIV. To be fair, if the selection of churches had been different and included a lot of non-denominational or cultic churches, other translations would probably have shown up, but to say that each denomination uses its own version isn't correct.

OK. Allow me to say to you that most denominations are Scripture specific.............

Mormons have the ............"Book of Mormon"
JW's have the..................."New World Translation".
Catholic have the ............. "Douai-Rheims" translation.
Christian Reformed Church.."New International Version"
Lutheran ..........................."God’s Word Bible."

 

[Albion]

OK. Allow me to say to you that most denominations are Scripture specific.............
Mormons have the ............"Book of Mormon"
JW's have the..................."New World Translation".
Catholic have the ............. "Douai-Rheims" translation.
Christian Reformed Church.."New International Version"
Lutheran ..........................."God’s Word Bible."

Well, you named 5 out of a total of thousands, so that doesn't seem to amount to "most all denominations."

And the first one on your list isn't a Bible translation anyway.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Again, not defending purgatory, but I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that including Macabees in Scripture is a "Catholic" thing.

The Eastern Orthodox and the other ancient traditions based their canon on the Greek Septuagint, and include Macabees. I believe all of the early translations of the Protestant Bibles did as well?

My point is that it is not a question that it is fair to simply say, "it's not Scripture" because for most of the time of the Church, I believe it was for everyone. And it's also not accurate to connect it only to Catholics.

 

[Albion]

Again, not defending purgatory, but I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that including Macabees in Scripture is a "Catholic" thing.

Since you appear to be replying to me, I'll answer by saying that I do NOT think that Maccabees is a purely Catholic thing. But Purgatory is. If the question is asked, "What is the Catholic basis for Purgatory" the answer is indeed a passage in
2 Maccabees.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Since you appear to be replying to me, I'll answer by saying that I do NOT think that Maccabees is a purely Catholic thing. But Purgatory is. If the question is asked, "What is the Catholic basis for Purgatory" the answer is indeed a passage in
2 Maccabees.

Yes, I purposely didn't quote a post. But it did appear the conversation was connecting purgatory-Catholicism-Macabees as Scripture.

I know Macabees is one of the bases Catholics use to defend purgatory. And purgatory, as defined by Catholics, is purely Catholic. And you probably realize I don't support the doctrine of purgatory either.

Just making a small point. Sometimes leaving these things leads to bigger problems later. Maybe I've dealt with too many of them in TT lately and would rather prevent where possible.

 

[Major1]

Well, you named 5 out of a total of thousands, so that doesn't seem to amount to "most all denominations."

And the first one on your list isn't a Bible translation anyway.

I realize I only posted 5. It seems to me that the purpose was easily understood. I could have listed a 100 more but wouldn't that be overkill.

My point is that denominations will produce a set of scriptures which they believe are theirs as is the case with the Book of Mormon.

I hope that you aee aware that the Morman's teach that the Bible is only accurate when it is cporrectly translated by the Book of Mormon. So in essence, it is there personal translation.

 

[Albion]

I realize I only posted 5. It seems to me that the purpose was easily understood. I could have listed a 100 more but wouldn't that be overkill.

You listed only 5 because there are not, in fact, many denominations that use some translation of their own. The ones you named weren't in that category either.

My point is that denominations will produce a set of scriptures which they believe are theirs as is the case with the Book of Mormon.

So....we were talking about Bible translations...but now we're talking about "set of scriptures?" Is that right?

I hope that you aee aware that the Morman's teach that the Bible is only accurate when it is cporrectly translated by the Book of Mormon. So in essence, it is there personal translation.

In other words, we're now down to talking about the Book of Mormon only, and it's not even a Bible translation.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Catholic have the ............. "Douai-Rheims" translation.

Quite wrong. There are many Catholic Bibles, not just the Douai-Rheims. For instance:
Books of the New Testament, Alba House
Contemporary English Version - New Testament, First Edition, American Bible Society
Contemporary English Version - Book of Psalms, American Bible Society
Contemporary English Version - Book of Proverbs, American Bible Society
The Grail Psalter (Inclusive Language Version), G.I.A. Publications
New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE)
New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, National Council of Churches
The Psalms, Alba House
The Psalms (New International Version) - St. Joseph Catholic Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Company
The Psalms - St. Joseph New Catholic Version, Catholic Book Publishing Company
Revised Psalms of the New American Bible (1991)
So You May Believe, A Translation of the Four Gospels, Alba House
Today's English Version, Second Edition, American Bible Society
Translation for Early Youth, A Translation of the New Testament for Children, Contemporary English Version, American Bible Society

This is, of course, a partial list. There are many more. Even the King James has a version with "the apocrypha" in it.

 

[Major1]

Quite wrong. There are many Catholic Bibles, not just the Douai-Rheims. For instance:
Books of the New Testament, Alba House
Contemporary English Version - New Testament, First Edition, American Bible Society
Contemporary English Version - Book of Psalms, American Bible Society
Contemporary English Version - Book of Proverbs, American Bible Society
The Grail Psalter (Inclusive Language Version), G.I.A. Publications
New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE)
New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, National Council of Churches
The Psalms, Alba House
The Psalms (New International Version) - St. Joseph Catholic Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Company
The Psalms - St. Joseph New Catholic Version, Catholic Book Publishing Company
Revised Psalms of the New American Bible (1991)
So You May Believe, A Translation of the Four Gospels, Alba House
Today's English Version, Second Edition, American Bible Society
Translation for Early Youth, A Translation of the New Testament for Children, Contemporary English Version, American Bible Society

This is, of course, a partial list. There are many more. Even the King James has a version with "the apocrypha" in it.

The Vatican has a copy of the New American Bible on it's website. These translations include the New Testament and the Roman Catholic Old Testament Canon.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agreed and that is my point. The ONLY thing there is a "Prayer for the Dead".

Maccabees IS NOT in any way part of the Scriptures my friend. What I am saying is that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory
is based on a obscure statement in a book which is not the Bible.

The Bible is very, very clear.

Hebrews : 9:27.......
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment".

Purgatory is strictly a Catholic teaching which is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Thank you for your excellent post. No matter which Bible translation one uses or, if one is able, the Greek and Hebrew, you will find no mention of Purgatory.

 

[Albion]

Quite wrong. There are many Catholic Bibles, not just the Douai-Rheims. For instance:
Books of the New Testament, Alba House
Contemporary English Version - New Testament, First Edition, American Bible Society
Contemporary English Version - Book of Psalms, American Bible Society
Contemporary English Version - Book of Proverbs, American Bible Society
The Grail Psalter (Inclusive Language Version), G.I.A. Publications
New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE)
New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, National Council of Churches
The Psalms, Alba House
The Psalms (New International Version) - St. Joseph Catholic Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Company
The Psalms - St. Joseph New Catholic Version, Catholic Book Publishing Company
Revised Psalms of the New American Bible (1991)
So You May Believe, A Translation of the Four Gospels, Alba House
Today's English Version, Second Edition, American Bible Society
Translation for Early Youth, A Translation of the New Testament for Children, Contemporary English Version, American Bible Society

This is, of course, a partial list. There are many more. Even the King James has a version with "the apocrypha" in it.

But these are NOT special, denominational, translations that the churches you named created by themselves for the purpose of justifying their own particular slants on doctrine!

These are some translations among the many versions or translations that may be used in most denominations. In denomination X, the RSV may be in use in some congregations, the KJV in another, and so on, but this is not at all what you alleged.

In addition, very few of them differ significantly when it comes to the most controversial issues that divide the Christian denominations. The JWs New World Translation is famous for being that way, but most of the other translations are nothing like that.

 

[Major1]

Thank you for your excellent post. No matter which Bible translation one uses or, if one is able, the Greek and Hebrew, you will find no mention of Purgatory.

Thank you for your kind words. May I say to you that a lot of people, (actually most) are comfortable with their denominational teaching as it is what they have been exposed to all of their lives.

Then when they are exposed to the Actual Word of God, they are all of a sudden caught in a situation where what they have been taught is NOT what the Bible says.

Now, what do they do???? Stay with their denominational understanding or the Bible??????

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you for your kind words. May I say to you that a lot of people, (actually most) are comfortable with their denominational teaching as it is what they have been exposed to all of their lives.

Then when they are exposed to the Actual Word of God, they are all of a sudden caught in a situation where what they have been taught is NOT what the Bible says.

Now, what do they do???? Stay with their denominational understanding or the Bible??????

Yes, that was exactly the crisis I faced when I first read the Bible. It completely changed my life.

 

[Panevino]

Don't forget
Acts 8:31

And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

 

[Major1]

Yes, that was exactly the crisis I faced when I first read the Bible. It completely changed my life.

Wonderful. May the Lord continue to bless you and keep you and allow you to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[com7fy8]

Purgatory ideas can be procrastination away from getting the correction God gives His children now > Hebrews 12:4-11. God is spiritual enough to succeed now.

 

[Major1]

Purgatory ideas can be procrastination away from getting the correction God gives His children now > Hebrews 12:4-11. God is spiritual enough to succeed now.

Well said!