On Purgatory

[Albion]

Albion, If it won't do any good to the dead, either they died saved, and went to Heaven, or were damned and went to hell, then why pray for the dead at all? Then what good are the following Scriptures?

In answer to the first, I'd say that it's a well-established principle among Christians that it is acceptable and good to ask God for anything, whether or not he will grant it--which is why in my church we pray for the growth in the afterlife of the faithful departed, and for God's mercy, in a general or all-encompassing way. We do not, however, pray for particular persons, that they may be released from Purgatory or their time there shortened, etc.

And forgive me, but you still haven't answered my question; how does Purgatory work? Or, where did you get your intensive training in Purgatory, seeing as how you don't believe in it?

Maybe you should refine this one, because as I read the selected verses, they are an assortment of verses that have no common theme unless its prayer or the afterlife being part of the Christian experience. My training in Roman Catholicism is from the RCC directly, I assure you. That's the reason I do NOT "believe in it" (as you said). Had I NOT been so educated, I would not have learned the elements that are departures from scripture and tradition (to put it somewhat bluntly).

 

[Monk Brendan]

I say it's instantaneous, I would like to see you establish your position from scripture that it's anything more than that.

I have no problem with instantaneous from an objective view. But is the soul's view objective or subjective? I don't know. So it is possible that the soul's subjective time might be 5 seconds, five hours, or five centuries? Remember, with God, all things are possible

 

[Basil the Great]

I differ from most Protestants in that I do believe in praying for the dead. Do prayers for my dead family members help them or not? I do not know, but I see nothing wrong in the practice.

As to Purgatory, the doctrine makes some sense to me, especially if we are talking about murderers or rapists or spousal abusers or child abusers who have a deathbed conversion. However, the belief that the bulk of Christians will go to Purgatory does not sit well with me. I also do not like the description of Purgatory as "a burning". Torture for a Christian bound for Heaven is a wee bit much I think. As I recall, the EO saint who was the dissenting vote at the Council of Florence also spoke out against the Purgatory doctrine of "burning away sins". Now maybe this burning description is intended to be taken literally and maybe not, but it is unsettling to say the least.

I found the EO poster's comment about Toll Houses to be interesting. I have wondered at times if perhaps the Toll House concept might be more likely to be accurate than the Purgatory doctrine? Obviously I hope that all Christians get to go to Heaven immediately. However, I will admit that I do sometimes hope that an exception is made for serial murderers, serial rapists and habitual spousal/child abusers, for it seems to me that they might need some sort of purification/recognition of the pain they caused before entering Heaven.

 

[Albion]

However, I will admit that I do sometimes hope that an exception is made for serial murderers, serial rapists and habitual spousal/child abusers, for it seems to me that they might need some sort of purification/recognition of the pain they caused before entering Heaven.

My own feeling FWIW, is that a sin is a sin. That's also the verdict of Scripture, I believe. So although we all tend to think that there are people whose sins are worse than ours and deserve something we hope to escape, it's probably a mistake to think that way. If Christ's sacrifice takes away the sins of the world, it does. I say this with your comment in mind about these child molesters having, in your scenario, had a conversion experience and repented of their sins before death, of course.

 

[All4Christ]

I know you didn't. You falsely attributed words to me which I never said and do not believe.

That's why I want you to show us where you believe I said the things you dishonestly attributed to me.

From an outside perspective, I didn't read it as him saying you believe that or that you said it - only that "some Protestants" believe that. I've heard some Protestants say the same, though they weren't on Christian Forums. There are a wide range of beliefs among Protestants, so it often isn't appropriate to associate a specific belief with all Protestants.

 

[Major1]

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

I am new here so I just started with the 1st post instead of reading all the ones that followed it.

Brother Monk asked if the posted verse proved that purgatory exists. The answer is NO!

THE DAY" in verse 13 is literally........"the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ".

The verse has nothing to do with purgatory at all. It has nothing to do with discipline as applied to character. There is no such thing ever taught regarding the circumstances that surround the Judgment Seat of Christ which can be Biblically used to verify the false teaching of purgatory. The JSC is not about the character of the person in view but of the believers work and stewardship that is tested.

 

[Major1]

My own feeling FWIW, is that a sin is a sin. That's also the verdict of Scripture, I believe. So although we all tend to think that there are people whose sins are worse than ours and deserve something we hope to escape, it's probably a mistake to think that way. If Christ's sacrifice takes away the sins of the world, it does. I say this with your comment in mind about these child molesters having, in your scenario, had a conversion experience and repented of their sins before death, of course.

Just as information and not speaking directly to the thread but to the comment of...........
"these child molesters having, in your scenario, had a conversion experience and repented of their sins before death, of course".

It is a well know medical fact that is not generally reported to the public, but child molesters are very rarely able to stop molesting children. Since there is no such thing as a Christian Child Molester, it is then very hard for one Now, has there been? I am sure there has been. I am not saying never ever can happen because God can surely do anything, but that it is almost impossible for that to happen.

I have two friends who have been involved in the prison system for many years. One is a doctor of phycology and the other a prison Chaplin.

Both have told me that once a man crosses that line in order to molest a child, he is pretty much finished mentally.
They have confirmed that those men are simply unable to stop what they have begun. In other words, they opened a door that can not be closed.

This is why the police demand that all men convicted of such a crime register with them upon getting out of prison. The criminal system knows that they will do it again and again but our liberal political correctness society will not keep them incarcerated for the rest of their lives. They believe that is too harsh, until it happens to their child.

Just something to think about.

 

[Major1]

From an outside perspective, I didn't read it as him saying you believe that or that you said it - only that "some Protestants" believe that. I've heard some Protestants say the same, though they weren't on Christian Forums. There are a wide range of beliefs among Protestants, so it often isn't appropriate to associate a specific belief with all Protestants.

Your answer is the reason why every person should be a Bible believer and not a denomination believer.

 

[Albion]

Just as information and not speaking directly to the thread but to the comment of...........
"these child molesters having, in your scenario, had a conversion experience and repented of their sins before death, of course".

It is a well know medical fact that is not generally reported to the public, but child molesters are very rarely able to stop molesting children. Since there is no such thing as a Christian Child Molester, it is then very hard for one Now, has there been? I am sure there has been. I am not saying never ever can happen because God can surely do anything, but that it is almost impossible for that to happen.

I have two friends who have been involved in the prison system for many years. One is a doctor of phycology and the other a prison Chaplin.

Both have told me that once a man crosses that line in order to molest a child, he is pretty much finished mentally.
They have confirmed that those men are simply unable to stop what they have begun. In other words, they opened a door that can not be closed.

This is why the police demand that all men convicted of such a crime register with them upon getting out of prison. The criminal system knows that they will do it again and again but our liberal political correctness society will not keep them incarcerated for the rest of their lives. They believe that is too harsh, until it happens to their child.

Just something to think about.

Does this in any way relate to the topic of this thread or to anything I posted?

 

[Major1]

I differ from most Protestants in that I do believe in praying for the dead. Do prayers for my dead family members help them or not? I do not know, but I see nothing wrong in the practice.

As to Purgatory, the doctrine makes some sense to me, especially if we are talking about murderers or rapists or spousal abusers or child abusers who have a deathbed conversion. However, the belief that the bulk of Christians will go to Purgatory does not sit well with me. I also do not like the description of Purgatory as "a burning". Torture for a Christian bound for Heaven is a wee bit much I think. As I recall, the EO saint who was the dissenting vote at the Council of Florence also spoke out against the Purgatory doctrine of "burning away sins". Now maybe this burning description is intended to be taken literally and maybe not, but it is unsettling to say the least.

I found the EO poster's comment about Toll Houses to be interesting. I have wondered at times if perhaps the Toll House concept might be more likely to be accurate than the Purgatory doctrine? Obviously I hope that all Christians get to go to Heaven immediately. However, I will admit that I do sometimes hope that an exception is made for serial murderers, serial rapists and habitual spousal/child abusers, for it seems to me that they might need some sort of purification/recognition of the pain they caused before entering Heaven.

The only thing that praying for the dead will do for you is to giver you sore knees.

There is not ONE SINGLE Bible verse which supports the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

Pergatory is a Catholic doctrine for the dead.........
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
"All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030)."

That teaching comes from the book of 2 Macabees which is not included in the canonized Scriptures. In that book is a prayer for the dead which is not Biblical in any way and one of the reasons why Macabess was excluded from the canon of Scriptures.

The Bible however says something very different.........
Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment".

In real time life, only two choices exist—heaven or hell. Both of those are choices. The bottom line is that Purgatory is an extra-biblical teaching developed beyond what Jesus and the apostles presented in the Bible. As such, it lacks biblical authority and IMO is to be rejected. While the idea of a "middle ground" may find historical support in other places or seem sensible to many, the fact is that it is not supported by the Bible—the very book that forms the basis for Christian belief. Believers are not called to offer prayers or works on behalf of the dead. The dead's eternity has already been decided. Instead, we must seek to grow in Christ and share Him with others.

 

[Major1]

Does this in any way relate to the topic of this thread or to anything I posted?

No it does not which is the reason why I said in the 1st sentence...........
"Just as information and not speaking directly to the thread but to the comment of...........".

Reject it, delete it, erase it, it does not matter to me. It was only what it says it was......information because of the previous comment on child molesters.

If it was out of line, please di9scard it or delete it.

 

[Albion]

Out of line, no, that wasn't the point. I did really wonder if you were attributing something to me that a different person had written or, if not that, that I was missing something you meant to tell us.

 

[All4Christ]

Your answer is the reason why every person should be a Bible believer and not a denomination believer.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

 

[Major1]

Out of line, no, that wasn't the point. I did really wonder if you were attributing something to me that a different person had written or, if not that, that I was missing something you meant to tell us.

I am sorry about that. It was a general comment and not directed to you at all.

 

[Basil the Great]

The only thing that praying for the dead will do for you is to giver you sore knees.

There is not ONE SINGLE Bible verse which supports the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

Pergatory is a Catholic doctrine for the dead.........
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
"All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030)."

That teaching comes from the book of 2 Macabees which is not included in the canonized Scriptures. In that book is a prayer for the dead which is not Biblical in any way and one of the reasons why Macabess was excluded from the canon of Scriptures.

The Bible however says something very different.........
Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment".

In real time life, only two choices exist—heaven or hell. Both of those are choices. The bottom line is that Purgatory is an extra-biblical teaching developed beyond what Jesus and the apostles presented in the Bible. As such, it lacks biblical authority and IMO is to be rejected. While the idea of a "middle ground" may find historical support in other places or seem sensible to many, the fact is that it is not supported by the Bible—the very book that forms the basis for Christian belief. Believers are not called to offer prayers or works on behalf of the dead. The dead's eternity has already been decided. Instead, we must seek to grow in Christ and share Him with others.

I recognize that the evidence in Scripture regarding specifically praying for the dead is very weak and maybe even non-existent. However, I also am not aware of any verse which condemns the practice. The very interesting thing is that prayers for the dead seems to have been a common practice in the Early Church. If this is indeed true, then one can perhaps assume that the practice was handed down by at least some of the 12 Apostles? It seems to me that we should recognize that the concept of Purgatory and the practice of praying for the dead are not necessarily linked. The Eastern Orthodox reject Purgatory and yet they do practice praying for the dead and believe that said prayers can benefit the dead.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

Nope - it has nothing to do with the Catholic "Purgatorial Sanctification" foolishness.

It ONLY STATES that a person's WORKS will be evaluated. It's the "Judgement seat of Christ" where rewards are distributed based on service. NOTHING about "Purifying anything", NOTHING about being Barred from heaven until you're "Clean enough". THERE IS NO SUCH THING as "Purgatory"!!! There never was any such thing, and NEVER WILL BE.

There's no "Room for a Purgatory" in the Gospel, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Bible that would lead to a conclusion that such a thing exists. It's nothing more than a Romanist Superstition - like "Limbo" used to be, until Rome decided that It made even LESS sense than their other phony doctrines.

BUT the Salesian Fathers of Don Bosco will STILL take your $250 for a set of "Gregorian Masses" that'll spring your Dearly Departeds OUTTA there in a month (no money back guarantee).

 

[Major1]

I recognize that the evidence in Scripture regarding specifically praying for the dead is very weak and maybe even non-existent. However, I also am not aware of any verse which condemns the practice. The very interesting thing is that prayers for the dead seems to have been a common practice in the Early Church. If this is indeed true, then one can perhaps assume that the practice was handed down by at least some of the 12 Apostles? It seems to me that we should recognize that the concept of Purgatory and the practice of praying for the dead are not necessarily linked. The Eastern Orthodox reject Purgatory and yet they do practice praying for the dead and believe that said prayers can benefit the dead.

My dear brother. The evidence for praying for the dead is not weak at all. It is non-existent!!!

There are absolutely NO Scriptures that say we are to pray for the dead.
There are absolutely NO Scriptures that support the Catholic teaching of Purgatory.

As for praying for the dead, the Bible tells us to not even speak to the dead my friend.

Please read Deut. 1810-11 where we are forbidden to speak to a necromonger (Hebrew for one who asks for the dead).

 

[Major1]

Nope - it has nothing to do with the Catholic "Purgatorial Sanctification" foolishness.

It ONLY STATES that a person's WORKS will be evaluated. It's the "Judgement seat of Christ" where rewards are distributed based on service. NOTHING about "Purifying anything", NOTHING about being Barred from heaven until you're "Clean enough". THERE IS NO SUCH THING as "Purgatory"!!! There never was any such thing, and NEVER WILL BE.

There's no "Room for a Purgatory" in the Gospel, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Bible that would lead to a conclusion that such a thing exists. It's nothing more than a Romanist Superstition - like "Limbo" used to be, until Rome decided that It made even LESS sense than their other phony doctrines.

BUT the Salesian Fathers of Don Bosco will STILL take your $250 for a set of "Gregorian Masses" that'll spring your Dearly Departeds OUTTA there in a month (no money back guarantee).

Now that I agree with my brother!

 

[Basil the Great]

Yes, Major1, I know that we are not to talk to the dead, though I am sure that many Christians do talk to their deceased parents or spouse in an off handed way at times, not expecting any kind of response. However, I think it is a bit unfair to equate an admonition regarding talking to the dead with the practice of praying to God on behalf of dead loved ones. Now there is that one reference by Paul which implies that he may have been in favor of the practice. I refer to 2nd Timothy, 1:16-18, where he is talking about Onesiphorus. Now the text is unclear, but some interpret to mean that Paul did favor praying for his deceased friend, Onesiphorus.

 

[Major1]

Yes, Major1, I know that we are not to talk to the dead, though I am sure that many Christians do talk to their deceased parents or spouse in an off handed way at times, not expecting any kind of response. However, I think it is a bit unfair to equate an admonition regarding talking to the dead with the practice of praying to God on behalf of dead loved ones. Now there is that one reference by Paul which implies that he may have been in favor of the practice. I refer to 2nd Timothy, 1:16-18, where he is talking about Onesiphorus. Now the text is unclear, but some interpret to mean that Paul did favor praying for his deceased friend, Onesiphorus.

I understand how someone would to say that Paul is praying for his dead friend, but I am not one of those. He knew where his friend was and the prayer was more as a comfort foe his family than his friend.

You may think it unfair brother, but that does not remove the words from the Scriptures and their meanings. I for one do not have a problem with anyone talking to a dead loved one but that is not the practice we are focused on. The praying for the dead is a n act of wanting to change God's mind on their eternal destination by allowing them to come back and do good works...i.e. "Purgatory".