On Purgatory

[Albion]

I recognize that the evidence in Scripture regarding specifically praying for the dead is very weak and maybe even non-existent. However, I also am not aware of any verse which condemns the practice.

That's a point worth considering. On the one hand, the admonition exists that we should pray for our neighbors and ask them to pray for us. The absence of any such advice concerning spirits suggests that praying for them is not recommended.

But on the other hand, those folks who are the most interested in praying for the dead believe that their condition in the afterlife can be altered by such prayer...and they usually have particular individuals in mind. If we divorce ourselves from such an error as that, praying in a general way that those who have gone on may grow in grace with God, etc. is an acceptable and time-honored practice, as you said.

 

[Basil the Great]

Not that a Protestant should be explaining Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology, but since I am the head one defending the "praying for the dead" practice now, let's look at how they view it. First, Catholic doctrine most definitely does NOT say that prayers for the deceased can change God's mind on the eternal destination of souls. Catholics believe that those in Heaven do not need our prayers and that those in Hell cannot benefit from our prayers. Catholics believe that prayers for the dead can only benefit those in Purgatory, souls that are eventually destined for Heaven, but ones that are not yet ready to go to Heaven.

Now the Eastern Orthodox view of the subject is much more complex. Some of the Eastern Orthodox do believe that prayers for the dead can actually help souls that are currently destined for Hell to eventually be saved and go to Heaven someday. However, it seems that this viewpoint is probably a minority one within Orthodoxy. Most of the Eastern Orthodox appear to reject such a view and instead believe that prayers for dead souls destined for Hell can still assist them in the sense that God can still show mercy to them by lessening their sufferings. As for myself, I would like to believe that prayers for deceased souls could eventually save them, but I tend to believe that such is probably NOT the case. However, this does not mean that our prayers for dead loved ones either in Hell now (the Catholic and Protestant view) or bound for Hell (the Orthodox view), can not help them. God could still decide to show some level of mercy to our loved ones who have not made it to Heaven, by easing their sufferings to some extent. For what it is worth, I did read an article where a Coptic Christian (Oriental Orthodox) was explaining to a Russian Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox) that the Copts do NOT believe that prayers for those in Hell/bound for Hell can change their eternal destiny.

I understand your concern about us asking God to change a soul's eternal destiny. Such is problematical at best and probably borders on heresy, though I would not say outright heresy. However, I still say that Scripture does NOT prohibit the practice and the Early Church seemed to be big on praying for the dead. I see nothing wrong with general prayers for the dead, as long as we do not ask God to change their eternal destiny, and we just ask God to comfort our loved ones and extend his mercy to them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just for the record (and I invite any of my Orthodox brothers or sisters to step in and further clarify the Church's teaching) ...

It is NOT an official doctrine of the Church that prayers can affect a change in the eternal destiny of the dead. But then again, we don't tend to speculate on what was not given to the Church as the deposit of faith given to the Apostles. There can be parables, and metaphors, and we may hope for God's mercy, and so on, but we do not officially teach how prayers for the dead may benefit them, or in what time frame.

We really don't tend to speculate on things that are purely the province of God. Christ alone judges, we don't presume to judge the eternal destiny of souls, for example.

We know that God is good, and that He loves mankind. We know that He is merciful. So we pray for mercy, for ourselves and for others. We hope and trust in the goodness of God. And we accept whatever comes from His hand, in this life or the next, as good and right. We know that He is pleased when we act in love toward others, and praying for others (either before or after their death) is an act of love. We do it out of love, but we leave it in God's hands what He does with those prayers.

For the Catholic, yes, it seems there is some connection to purgatory, and shortening the duration spent there (is what I most often hear). But as you have correctly said, the Orthodox reject the doctrine of purgatory. We don't believe in it, so the prayers we offer have nothing to do with time out of or avoiding purgatory. But it is better to let Catholics speak for Catholics. I merely mention one difference.

As to what "some Orthodox" believe, there is a degree of allowance of what one may believe in many cases. The Church does place borders around what must be believed (such as the Trinity), and what must be rejected as heresy (such as any suggestion of the Son being created), but within these confines there is freedom of belief in many areas. It won't get you kicked out of the Church. And indeed, I would submit that we have Scripture that indicates that the judgment of souls comes at the end of this age, so any prayers we do offer for the dead are being made before that judgment. It is our position generally that we do not say what God cannot do because we reason it so ... but that begins to get off topic.

I hope this helps.

 

[Uber Genius]

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

No, this passage is not about purgatory. It is about the judgement of the believer.

There is no way that we can resolve the idea of the atonement that comes to us by faith not works and have purgation (works in purgatory) be true see Ephesians 2:8,9



We know because we see Paul talk many more times about it:

"Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God." (Romans 14:10).


"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10).

"Knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free." (Ephesians 6:8).


Finally,
Paul’s statements are clear. It is the man’s works that are being judged, not his person or soul. The issue at stake is not his salvation or eternal state (heaven or hell), but his rewards. The fire of Christ’s judgment will test the nature of his earthly works; this judgment does nothing to the sanctification of his soul.

There are two books in heaven, the Book of Life, and of Works. If anyone's name is found in the Book of Life (Faith in Christ) he is not part of the second judgement. If purgation is true we earn (merit) our salvation which is not supported, Hebrews 9:27 cannot be true and purgation be true. If purgation is true then what John writes in Revelation 20:14

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire," can't be true. Unless we created another category of people who are excluded from purgation for some reason. Through purgation, one is saved, rev. 20:15 says the people being judged aren't saved.

 

[Albion]

Paul’s statements are clear. It is the man’s works that are being judged, not his person or soul. The issue at stake is not his salvation or eternal state (heaven or hell), but his rewards. The fire of Christ’s judgment will test the nature of his earthly works; this judgment does nothing to the sanctification of his soul.

What's more, we know that the first century church did not believe in Purgatory or anything approximating it. That was for the reason that these early Christians believed that the Second Coming of Christ was imminent and that it was this generation" which would see it.

That understanding meant that a lengthy time in a place of punishment or purgation was superfluous, as even today the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory will cease to exist at the time of the Second Coming.

 

[Uber Genius]

What's more, we know that the first century church did not believe in Purgatory or anything approximating it. That was for the reason that these early Christians believed that the Second Coming of Christ was imminent and that it was this generation" which would see it.

That understanding meant that a lengthy time in a place of punishment or purgation was superfluous, as even today the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory will cease to exist at the time of the Second Coming.

I think it is a marvelous solution to the problem of hell. Purgation seems right until we start to understand how profoundly marred by sin. Meritorious acts are like filthy rags (Isa 64?)

 

[Major1]

I think it is a marvelous solution to the problem of hell. Purgation seems right until we start to understand how profoundly marred by sin. Meritorious acts are like filthy rags (Isa 64?)

There is NO problem with hell!

God fixed it when we allowed His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to die for your sins. He paid the price for your sins so that there is NO problem with hell at all.

Hell is real. Hell is hot. Hell is not a place that anyone has to go to. Every single person in hell today is there because they wanted to be there.

It is just that simple.

By the way......there is not one single verse in the Bible that says anything about purgatory.

 

[Uber Genius]

There is NO problem with hell!

God fixed it when we allowed His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to die for your sins. He paid the price for your sins so that there is NO problem with hell at all.

Hell is real. Hell is hot. Hell is not a place that anyone has to go to. Every single person in hell today is there because they wanted to be there.

It is just that simple.

By the way......there is not one single verse in the Bible that says anything about purgatory.

We are in radical agreement here. "the problem of Hell," is an ancient philosophical objection to monotheism. It states, "if god is all-loving how can he send people who were either raised with different religious views, or who truly have no apprehension of him, to a place where they are tortured eternally."

That is the problem of hell I was referring to. Hope that helps.

 

[Major1]

We are in radical agreement here. "the problem of Hell," is an ancient philosophical objection to monotheism. It states, "if god is all-loving how can he send people who were either raised with different religious views, or who truly have no apprehension of him, to a place where they are tortured eternally."

That is the problem of hell I was referring to. Hope that helps.

I am very blessed to know that we agree.

I was just posting the Biblical fact that hell is a reality and not a myth or philosophical argument.

Believe me when I say to you that I have debated the myth you postulated for more years than I can remember.

 

[Uber Genius]

I am very blessed to know that we agree.

I was just posting the Biblical fact that hell is a reality and not a myth or philosophical argument.

Believe me when I say to you that I have debated the myth you postulated for more years than I can remember.

"the myth you postulated?" Not sure you are getting my original or followup posts.

I believe in a literal hell and always have.

The problem of hell has nothing to do with a theological claim of a literal hell or not but is a philosophical argument.

Hell can be both myth if I write a fictional account widely differing from the Biblical account for entertainment reasons. An example of this would be C.S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters."

Hell can also be referred to in a philosophical argument.

It also can be a feature of our real external world.

"Hell is ______." Is an "is" of predication. And can have several values.

The theology of judgement for those who reject God's plan of salvation, can only have one true meaning. But don't confuse that position with Hell as fictional in books, or philosophical in "The Problem of Hell."

 

[Major1]

"the myth you postulated?" Not sure you are getting my original or followup posts.

I believe in a literal hell and always have.

The problem of hell has nothing to do with a theological claim of a literal hell or not but is a philosophical argument.

Hell can be both myth if I write a fictional account widely differing from the Biblical account for entertainment reasons. An example of this would be C.S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters."

Hell can also be referred to in a philosophical argument.

It also can be a feature of our real external world.

"Hell is ______." Is an "is" of predication. And can have several values.

The theology of judgement for those who reject God's plan of salvation, can only have one true meaning. But don't confuse that position with Hell as fictional in books, or philosophical in "The Problem of Hell."

I am not saying YOU said anything. I said that it is a myth postulated by many people but I certainly did not mean YOU. Forgive me for the misunderstanding.

 

[Basil the Great]

I just did some research on the Jewish view of the afterlife. There are several different Jewish perspectives on the afterlife and one of them even teaches reincarnation, though I suspect that this is a minority view within Judaism. There was a particularly interesting item that I read which reminded me of this thread. One school of Jewish tradition says that souls go through a stage of purification prior to entering Heaven, but for a maximum of a period of 11 or 12 months. Hence, it would seem that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory probably has it's roots within Judaism, though the belief systems are obviously not identical.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I just did some research on the Jewish view of the afterlife. There are several different Jewish perspectives on the afterlife and one of them even teaches reincarnation, though I suspect that this is a minority view within Judaism. There was a particularly interesting item that I read which reminded me of this thread. One school of Jewish tradition says that souls go through a stage of purification prior to entering Heaven, but for a maximum of a period of 11 or 12 months. Hence, it would seem that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory probably has it's roots within Judaism, though the belief systems are obviously not identical.

Oddly, to me, Catholics vehemently deny any affiliation with Jewish theology, such as the canon of the Old Testament, but link themselves to Jewish theology when it is convenient. To read some Catholic posts here at CF on the doctrine of Purgatory, one would come away with the idea that all Jews pray for the dead in a Jewish purgatory essentially identical to Catholic Purgatory.

 

[Basil the Great]

It is possible that Purgatory also has it's origins in the words of Jesus when He said that we must be perfect, even as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Perhaps some of the Church Fathers looked at these words of Jesus and felt that while we will never achieve perfection in this life, we cannot enter Heaven while sin is still attached to our souls? Maybe this led to both the Orthodox Toll Houses and the Catholic Purgatory?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Oddly, to me, Catholics vehemently deny any affiliation with Jewish theology, such as the canon of the Old Testament, but link themselves to Jewish theology when it is convenient. To read some Catholic posts here at CF on the doctrine of Purgatory, one would come away with the idea that all Jews pray for the dead in a Jewish purgatory essentially identical to Catholic Purgatory.

No offense, and I'm not Catholic but ...

If you mean their rejection of the Masoretic text, that is a separate matter from theology. The reason is that that text came about centuries after Christ - and anything coming late from Jewish sources is likely to be specifically anti-Christian.

I suspect the Catholics (like Orthodox) recognize their roots as being in the Jewish religion. There really is no other way to honestly view Christianity, imo.

Just that small point. Orthodox don't accept the Catholic doctrines of purgatory anyway, and we have our differences. Just pointing out that the canon (if by that you mean the MT) is a separate issue.

God bless you!

 

[Major1]

It is possible that Purgatory also has it's origins in the words of Jesus when He said that we must be perfect, even as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Perhaps some of the Church Fathers looked at these words of Jesus and felt that while we will never achieve perfection in this life, we cannot enter Heaven while sin is still attached to our souls? Maybe this led to both the Orthodox Toll Houses and the Catholic Purgatory?

Not so my brother.

It came from 2 Maccabees where we find the practice of prayer for the dead with a view to their after life purification. The same practice appears in other traditions, such as the medieval Chinese Buddhist practice of making offerings on behalf of the dead, who are said to suffer numerous trials. Among other reasons, Catholic belief in purgatory is based on the practice of prayer for the dead.

Maccabees is NOT a part of the canon of Scriptures therefore anything coming from it should be rejected.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not so my brother.

It came from 2 Maccabees where we find the practice of prayer for the dead with a view to their after life purification. The same practice appears in other traditions, such as the medieval Chinese Buddhist practice of making offerings on behalf of the dead, who are said to suffer numerous trials. Among other reasons, Catholic belief in purgatory is based on the practice of prayer for the dead.

Maccabees is NOT a part of the canon of Scriptures therefore anything coming from it should be rejected.

I find Chinese Buddhism to be particularly odd because the Buddha, good Hindu that he was, taught reincarnation with ultimate goal of Nirvana (nothingness). Chinese Buddhism rejects both quite firmly, thereby creating an entirely different religion that, for all intents and purposes, ought not to be called Buddhism. In the same way, the Catholic Church invented purgatory (II Maccabees has been used as a springboard to create this religion which is entirely unknown to Judaism) and it can be debated as to whether or not Catholicism is biblical Christianity.

 

[Major1]

I find Chinese Buddhism to be particularly odd because the Buddha, good Hindu that he was, taught reincarnation with ultimate goal of Nirvana (nothingness). Chinese Buddhism rejects both quite firmly, thereby creating an entirely different religion that, for all intents and purposes, ought not to be called Buddhism. In the same way, the Catholic Church invented purgatory (II Maccabees has been used as a springboard to create this religion which is entirely unknown to Judaism) and it can be debated as to whether or not Catholicism is biblical Christianity.

Good Budda? Really???

Siddhartha Gautama had it all. The three houses, the kindgom, the beautiful wife, the adoring subjects and family. His son was born and Buddha got scared out of his mind.
He needed to be unfettered. So he got on his horse and he rode off into the night. Not to return for seven years.

Hmmmm?

 

[Albion]

Not so my brother.

It came from 2 Maccabees where we find the practice of prayer for the dead with a view to their after life purification.

There's nothing in Maccabees that speaks to "life purification" and the reference says only that some Jews prayed for the dead, not that the practice is proper or something that everyone ought to do or that it has any benefit for anyone (which is the premise behind praying for the "Poor Souls in Purgatory").

(And then there's always that additional question of whether Maccabees is actually Holy Scripture.)

 

[Major1]

There's nothing in Maccabees that speaks to "life purification" and the reference says only that some Jews prayed for the dead, not that the practice is proper or something that everyone ought to do or that it has any benefit for anyone (which is the premise behind praying for the "Poor Souls in Purgatory").

(And then there's always that additional question of whether Maccabees is actually Holy Scripture.)

Agreed and that is my point. The ONLY thing there is a "Prayer for the Dead".

Maccabees IS NOT in any way part of the Scriptures my friend. What I am saying is that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory
is based on a obscure statement in a book which is not the Bible.

The Bible is very, very clear.

Hebrews : 9:27.......
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment".

Purgatory is strictly a Catholic teaching which is not found anywhere in the Bible.