On Free Will

[ladodgers6]

Yo welcome!

Exactly, your end of the lesson.

 

[TheSeabass]

We believe that the doctrine is found in Scripture, although it was systematically developed and taught after the death of the apostles.

Your conclusion does not logically follow. John's statement relates to what theologians refer to as "actual sin", while what we refer to "original sin" describes something entirely different. "Original sin" is a term that is used to describe a theological concept. The term "Trinity" is another example.

Again, John said sin is transgression of the law which makes the idea of original sin impossible.

I am having a little bit of difficulty understanding exactly what your beliefs are. Could you please clarify the following:
1) What are the "conditions" that you refer to above, which are necessary for man to receive the free gift of salvation?

--hear Romans 10:17
--believe John 8:24
--repent Luke 13:3
--confess Matthew 10:32-33
--be water baptized Mark 16:16
--keep Christ's works being faithful unto death Revelation 2:10,26

2) Let's say that a man exercises his free will, chooses only good during his life, and lives his whole life without ever committing a sin. In your view, does this person go to Heaven?

If this man did not have an obedient faith he will not be saved for not having an obedient faith in doing God's will is sin. An atheist can do good his whole life but if he does not obey by believing (John 8:24) he will be lost for unbelief is sin.

 

[TheSeabass]

I can't quite figure out how this relates to what I said.

You posted "Adam transgressed the law."

John said sin is transgression of the law. So Adam, and everyone else, that transgresses the law are sinners. Therefore no one is born a sinner, in Adam's case was not created a sinner.

So no one is a sinner unless or until he/she transgresses the law.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Which is what I posted. Paul is telling the Gentiles that they were included in the group known as God's People not because they had performed better than the Jews, but for no reason.

If a person gives you something for no reason, without you paying cash or for cutting his grass, it's a gift. Doh!

God doesn't say they become a part of God's people for 'no reason'. Eph 2:8 and countless other passages give the reason: faith!

"Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus "This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent." Jn 6:28-29

"It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." Rom 4:13

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone." Rom 9:30-32

Faith certainly does not sound like 'no reason' to me! It's not a law-based or work-based or merit-based reason, certainly. Rather it is entirely based in our trust of the law-keeping, works, and merit of Christ. It still, however, is the 'reason' we may become children of God!
What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?

 

[TheSeabass]

No. Their sin condemns them.

Those who are saved are those who God has had mercy on. The rest get justice.

Then everyone who has sinned should be condemned to eternal destruction equally.

Yet not everyone who has sinned will be eternally lost for God (arbitrarily) chose some to be saved unequally, showing favoritism, respect of persons.

So under your scenario you have made God 100% in control salvation of all who have sinned where salvation is only possible by a sole choice of God. Joe is as much a sinner as John for both are equally condemned by their sins, yet Joe is saved while John is lost. Why did not both get equal justice for their sins? For God chose one over the other making God responsible for both that who are save and those lost. You have taken salvation totally out of control of man putting God solely in charge of who is save and who is lost. So there is no way God cannot be culpable for the lost since He was 100% control.

 

[TheSeabass]

Thank you. This is fairly interesting. How many people are in your congregation?

Where I attend is small, average about 35.

Does it have any authority structure?

Did have an eldership until recently when one fofthe two elders moved away.

How often do you meet for worship, and what is the style of worship? Do you meet in a traditional church building, or in someone's living room, etc.?

Meet on the first day of the week where worship consists of praying, singing, giving, the Lord's Supper and teaching/preaching. (Also meet on Wednesday nights on a regular basis.) We meet in an old wood structure building.

Does your congregation also reject other teachings historically held by the majority of Christians, such as the Trinity?

There is God, the Son and the Holy Ghost Luke 3:22. Yet the bible does not teach original sin.

Also, it would seem that each member is free to believe whatever he wants, as long as it accords with his own personal interpretation of Scripture. Would this be a fair statement?

Each person is a free moral agent free to believe what they choose. Everyone where I attend reads and understands the bible the same way. They would post the same things that I post if they were here making posts.

 

[PeaceB]

Again, John said sin is transgression of the law which makes the idea of original sin impossible.

No, it does not, as I explained previously.

--hear Romans 10:17
--believe John 8:24
--repent Luke 13:3
--confess Matthew 10:32-33
--be water baptized Mark 16:16
--keep Christ's works being faithful unto death Revelation 2:10,26

OK. Got it. Thank you.

If this man did not have an obedient faith he will not be saved for not having an obedient faith in doing God's will is sin. An atheist can do good his whole life but if he does not obey by believing (John 8:24) he will be lost for unbelief is sin.

OK. Thank you. If I may ask, under your theology, what happens to these three classes of people:
1) An infant who dies at two weeks old, without having satisfied all of the requirements that you set forth above. This infant did not commit any actual sins.
2) A person with severe mental incapacity, who dies at the age of 21 without having satisfied all of the requirements that you set forth above. This person did not exercise any actual sins, which you admit as possible due to man's free will.
3) An adult who was born in a part of the world where the gospel was not preached, and who never had an opportunity to hear the gospel, and dies at the age of 21 without having satisfied all of the requirements that you set forth above. This person also did not exercise any actual sins, which you admit as possible due to man's free will.

I would guess that in these cases you would resort to some sort of Molinistic approach. Is that correct?

 

[PeaceB]

There is God, the Son and the Holy Ghost Luke 3:22. Yet the bible does not teach original sin.

Thanks. Do you hold to the classical formulation of the Trinity? In other words, do you believe that the Father is God, that the Son is God, that the Holy Spirit is God, and that there is one God?

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

You posted "Adam transgressed the law."

John said sin is transgression of the law. So Adam, and everyone else, that transgresses the law are sinners. Therefore no one is born a sinner, in Adam's case was not created a sinner.

So no one is a sinner unless or until he/she transgresses the law.

The first command in the garden, "Thou shalt not eat..." and Jesus says, "Take no thought..." which narrows down to the same Truth of what we are seeking to find...IN Christ...Who said He came to make us blind that we might "See"...
As Jesus said to the Pharisees, " If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

Which is the same truth as -

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

[TheSeabass]

God plainly tells us how He determines things with man. And it surely wasn't before the world began.

Zechariah 1:6
Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

It's not according to predestination, nor election, nor beliefs, nor church affiliation, nor cunning of man, nor Adam's sin, nor man's father's sins, nor faith, nor total depravity, nor any other way than by man's ways and deeds. God will deal with each and every man according to the life he lives.

I think Zech 1:6 is where Israel was in captivity in Babylon due to their disobedience to God (Deuteronomy 28:35). So God fulfilled His word in His dealings with Israel yet Israel knew this and still would not repent.

So as you point out "God will deal with each and every man according to the life he lives." Each man will be dealt with according to his deeds Romans 2:6.

 

[TheSeabass]

The sheep hear and follow. Goats do not. There's nothing in scripture that indicates that one becomes a sheep.

Anyone that chooses can hear and follow Christ but one has to first hear and follow to be a sheep for Christ. Earlier in John 10:7-10 Jesus said "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Christ figuratively portrays Himself as the gate to the pasture and "any man" who chooses to enter this door (hear & follow Christ) he will be of His sheep finding pasture. Enter first, then saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

A man once said the following -

"Your argument is from silence. No, it says nothing about their depravity, one way or another. I would never make an argument for that with this passage, or any other narrative."

This comes from post 249. This man would say nothing about depravity because of its silence, yet this man makes an argument from silence from what I posted. Let's see, Paul said to drink a little wine (I wonder if this is what this man means).

If nothing at all is said in Acts 2 (or anywhere else) that those in Acts 2 were totally depraved, then one must import that idea and add it to the text. It is assumed those in Acts 2 were totally depraved and nothing more. One cannot argue from assumption.



The Silence of the Scriptures: Permissive or Prohibitive?

 

[Hammster]

You posted "Adam transgressed the law."

John said sin is transgression of the law. So Adam, and everyone else, that transgresses the law are sinners. Therefore no one is born a sinner, in Adam's case was not created a sinner.

So no one is a sinner unless or until he/she transgresses the law.

Okay. But I'm still not sure how that relates. Are you disagreeing that Adam transgressed a law?

 

[TheSeabass]

The first command in the garden, "Thou shalt not eat..." and Jesus says, "Take no thought..." which narrows down to the same Truth of what we are seeking to find...IN Christ...Who said He came to make us blind that we might "See"...
As Jesus said to the Pharisees, " If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

Which is the same truth as -

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

If there were no law then there would be no transgressions but Christ does have a NT law we are under as was Paul 1 Corinthians 9:21. So one is not a sinner until he transgresses.


Adam was not a sinner until he transgressed the "thou shalt not eat" law of God. So how can anyone be a sinner when they have not sinned (transgressed God's law)? Can you call a wall painted BEFORE you put paint on it? No, then how can one be "painted" a sinner when he has not sinned/transgressed?

 

[Wordkeeper]

God doesn't say they become a part of God's people for 'no reason'. Eph 2:8 and countless other passages give the reason: faith!

"Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus "This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent." Jn 6:28-29

"It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." Rom 4:13

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone." Rom 9:30-32

Faith certainly does not sound like 'no reason' to me! It's not a law-based or work-based or merit-based reason, certainly. Rather it is entirely based in our trust of the law-keeping, works, and merit of Christ. It still, however, is the 'reason' we may become children of God!
What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?

Individual election is by faith, but corporate election is "before either child had done right or wrong"! God chose Israel not because she was the strongest nation, but the weakest. Now He includes the Gentiles too, arbitrarily.

The last term has a connotation of some one doing something because He can, is authoritative. Hope I was able to convey the distinction. Please give it a thought.

 

[Aseyesee]

God knowing the end result of his actions, chose to act anyway ...

 

[TheSeabass]

Thanks. Do you hold to the classical formulation of the Trinity? In other words, do you believe that the Father is God, that the Son is God, that the Holy Spirit is God, and that there is one God?

One God (Divine Nature) with 3 personalities.

The Biblical Doctrine of the Godhead

 

[TheSeabass]

No, it does not, as I explained previously.

But you did not show previously how one can be a sinner if he has not committed a transgression.

OK. Got it. Thank you.


OK. Thank you. If I may ask, under your theology, what happens to these three classes of people:
1) An infant who dies at two weeks old, without having satisfied all of the requirements that you set forth above. This infant did not commit any actual sins.



2) A person with severe mental incapacity, who dies at the age of 21 without having satisfied all of the requirements that you set forth above. This person did not exercise any actual sins, which you admit as possible due to man's free will.

Infants are born without sin, innocent and pure putting them in a safe position with God. Yet if they die in that safe state they would be saved. This applies to those with severe mental disabilities who have minds as infants though advanced in years age-wise. Original sin puts all of these in eternal torment with no hope.

3) An adult who was born in a part of the world where the gospel was not preached, and who never had an opportunity to hear the gospel, and dies at the age of 21 without having satisfied all of the requirements that you set forth above. This person also did not exercise any actual sins, which you admit as possible due to man's free will.

Lost.

2 THessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Just doing good will not save a person, one must have an obedient faith in doing God's will to be saved. So how can this person be without sin or be saved if he does not know God's will? Ignorance (lack of knowledge) is no excuse, Hosea 4:6.

I would guess that in these cases you would resort to some sort of Molinistic approach. Is that correct?

God is all knowing and knows how men will choose. But foreknowledge does not mandate predetermination. Acts 2:23 God foreknew if He set up the circumstance by sending Christ at the time He did, God foreknew those Jews and Romans would choose of their own free will to crucify Christ. Therefore God is able to use man's free will choices to further His will without violating man's free will making Himself culpable for the sins man commits.

 

[Hammster]

Anyone that chooses can hear and follow Christ but one has to first hear and follow to be a sheep for Christ. Earlier in John 10:7-10 Jesus said "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Christ figuratively portrays Himself as the gate to the pasture and "any man" who chooses to enter this door (hear & follow Christ) he will be of His sheep finding pasture. Enter first, then saved.

Yes, if any man enters will be saved. But we know that only the sheep get in. Kinda the point of having a gate.

 

[TheSeabass]

Yes, if any man enters will be saved. But we know that only the sheep get in. Kinda the point of having a gate.

ANY MAN that chooses to enter will get in. Entrance is not limited to pre-select individuals who are ALREADY saved BEFORE they even hear and follow Christ.

And any man is not of Christ's sheep until he first enters the "Door". I could not be in the building I am in now unless I FIRST enter the door. I cannot be in the building BEFORE I am in the building. So it is not possible for one to be of the sheep BEFORE he enters the door becoming of the sheep.