On Free Will

[TheSeabass]

Adam transgressed the law.

Yes. He was not born/made a sinner. One cannot be a sinner unless one transgresses the law. Since sin is not a substance (bacteria) that is passed from one to another and there is no sin gene/DNA passed from one person to another and sin is not just an idea that is passed from one to another then what sin has the newly conceived/new born transgressed to make him/her a sinner?

 

[PeaceB]

Original sin is usually accredited to Augustine (not to Christ or His apostles) and made more popular by men as Calvin and Luther.

" Augustiine's formulation of original sin was popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin,..."
Original sin - Wikipedia

We believe that the doctrine is found in Scripture, although it was systematically developed and taught after the death of the apostles.

Again, John's statement that sin is transgression of the law makes the idea of original sin impossible.

Your conclusion does not logically follow. John's statement relates to what theologians refer to as "actual sin", while what we refer to "original sin" describes something entirely different. "Original sin" is a term that is used to describe a theological concept. The term "Trinity" is another example.

Yes, man has free will to choose between good and evil but that does not in any way imply man merits his salvation. Salvation is a free gift that cannot be merited. God's gift of salvation is CONDITIONAL and not UNconditional. Since the gift of salvation is CONDITIONAL man must use his free will to choose to meet those conditions God has placed upon His free gift to receive that gift and working to meet the conditions do not, cannot merit the free gift. Man can also choose NOT to meet the conditions and therefore will NOT receive the free gift.

I am having a little bit of difficulty understanding exactly what your beliefs are. Could you please clarify the following:
1) What are the "conditions" that you refer to above, which are necessary for man to receive the free gift of salvation?
2) Let's say that a man exercises his free will, chooses only good during his life, and lives his whole life without ever committing a sin. In your view, does this person go to Heaven?

 

[Hammster]

I believe Paul said this -

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? (Romans 10)

He said nothing of regeneration, nor election, nor predestination, nor being drawn, nor spiritually seeing.

Good thing he said other stuff.

 

[Hammster]

Yes. He was not born/made a sinner. One cannot be a sinner unless one transgresses the law. Since sin is not a substance (bacteria) that is passed from one to another and there is no sin gene/DNA passed from one person to another and sin is not just an idea that is passed from one to another then what sin has the newly conceived/new born transgressed to make him/her a sinner?

I can't quite figure out how this relates to what I said.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Okay. So folks who are enemies with God can somehow want to do things that glorify him.

I'm sure that's not biblical, but okay.

Ahab humbled himself before God (temporarily). Nebuchadnezzar put out an edict specifically glorifying God (Dan 4.) It was not the first time He had glorified God, either. All men, even those who despise God, will one day confess His right as sovereign (Rom 14:1, Isa 45:14-25.) The pagan sailors feared God, prayed to Him, and gave sacrifices and made vows (Jonah 1:13-16.) The Philistines glorify God and seek to appease Him in I Sam 6:1-12.

Etc.

In some cases they 'wanted' to glorify God, in others, they glorified Him because they saw His glory and feared it. Either way, being an enemy of God or an unbeliever is in no way opposed to being able to glorify God.

 

[Hammster]

Ahab humbled himself before God (temporarily). Nebuchadnezzar put out an edict specifically glorifying God (Dan 4.) It was not the first time He had glorified God, either. All men, even those who despise God, will one day confess His right as sovereign (Rom 14:1, Isa 45:14-25.) The pagan sailors feared God, prayed to Him, and gave sacrifices and made vows (Jonah 1:13-16.) The Philistines glorify God and seek to appease Him in I Sam 6:1-12.

Etc.

In some cases they 'wanted' to glorify God, in others, they glorified Him because they saw His glory and feared it. Either way, being an enemy of God or an unbeliever is in no way opposed to being able to glorify God.

Actually, it is.

 

[TheSeabass]

God has already determined who He would give to Christ. These are His sheep. They respond to His voice BECAUSE they are His sheep. The verse couldn't be more clear, just as the Book of Life has already been written and sealed.

No, God determined a GROUP called Christian would be saved but God did not, does not determine which individuals will be in or not in the group. God left that up to man so if a man is not in the group/not saved then that is mans' culpability and not God's culpability. If God alone determines who will be in or not in the group then God is 100% at fault for the lost.

Again you have one a sheep BEFORE one hears and follows. How can I ever be a sheep of someone that I do not hear and follow? Cannot be. I must first hear and follow in order to be a sheep.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If God alone determines who will be in or not in the group then God is 100% at fault for the lost.

No. Their sin condemns them.

Those who are saved are those who God has had mercy on. The rest get justice.

 

[JamesFW]

I guess my point is ... why do you need faith, or belief for something you have already seen.

Faith is the internal acknowledgment of truth.

 

[PeaceB]

I do not know of any "official" church of Christ website(s). The church of Christ has no official representatives, so I speak-post of myself not representing any other church of Christ member and no other member represents me. Each congregation is autonomous and one congregation has no business in the affairs of a sister congregation.

What Is the Church of Christ?

The above link gives an accurate depiction.

Thank you. This is fairly interesting. How many people are in your congregation? Does it have any authority structure? How often do you meet for worship, and what is the style of worship? Do you meet in a traditional church building, or in someone's living room, etc.?

Does your congregation also reject other teachings historically held by the majority of Christians, such as the Trinity?

Also, it would seem that each member is free to believe whatever he wants, as long as it accords with his own personal interpretation of Scripture. Would this be a fair statement?

 

[JamesFW]

Good thing he said other stuff.

A man once said the following -

"Your argument is from silence. No, it says nothing about their depravity, one way or another. I would never make an argument for that with this passage, or any other narrative."

This comes from post 249. This man would say nothing about depravity because of its silence, yet this man makes an argument from silence from what I posted. Let's see, Paul said to drink a little wine (I wonder if this is what this man means).

 

[JamesFW]

Ahab humbled himself before God (temporarily). Nebuchadnezzar put out an edict specifically glorifying God (Dan 4.) It was not the first time He had glorified God, either. All men, even those who despise God, will one day confess His right as sovereign (Rom 14:1, Isa 45:14-25.) The pagan sailors feared God, prayed to Him, and gave sacrifices and made vows (Jonah 1:13-16.) The Philistines glorify God and seek to appease Him in I Sam 6:1-12.

Etc.

In some cases they 'wanted' to glorify God, in others, they glorified Him because they saw His glory and feared it. Either way, being an enemy of God or an unbeliever is in no way opposed to being able to glorify God.

Good post. The same thing with Rahab the harlot as I posted.

 

[JamesFW]

Actually, it is.

Hammster, would you argue with a stop sign because it wasn't high enough off the ground?

 

[HeLeadethMe]

removed accidental post

 

[JamesFW]

No, God determined a GROUP called Christian would be saved but God did not, does not determine which individuals will be in or not in the group. God left that up to man so if a man is not in the group/not saved then that is mans' culpability and not God's culpability. If God alone determines who will be in or not in the group then God is 100% at fault for the lost.

Again you have one a sheep BEFORE one hears and follows. How can I ever be a sheep of someone that I do not hear and follow? Cannot be. I must first hear and follow in order to be a sheep.

God plainly tells us how He determines things with man. And it surely wasn't before the world began.

Zechariah 1:6
Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

It's not according to predestination, nor election, nor beliefs, nor church affiliation, nor cunning of man, nor Adam's sin, nor man's father's sins, nor faith, nor total depravity, nor any other way than by man's ways and deeds. God will deal with each and every man according to the life he lives.

 

[Hammster]

No, God determined a GROUP called Christian would be saved but God did not, does not determine which individuals will be in or not in the group. God left that up to man so if a man is not in the group/not saved then that is mans' culpability and not God's culpability. If God alone determines who will be in or not in the group then God is 100% at fault for the lost.

Again you have one a sheep BEFORE one hears and follows. How can I ever be a sheep of someone that I do not hear and follow? Cannot be. I must first hear and follow in order to be a sheep.

The sheep hear and follow. Goats do not. There's nothing in scripture that indicates that one becomes a sheep.

 

[Hammster]

A man once said the following -

"Your argument is from silence. No, it says nothing about their depravity, one way or another. I would never make an argument for that with this passage, or any other narrative."

This comes from post 249. This man would say nothing about depravity because of its silence, yet this makes an argument from silence from what I posted. Let's see, Paul said to drink a little wine (I wonder if this is what this man means).

Clever. But you tried to sum up a whole argument based on a few verses, and preteded that was all Paul said about it. He actually said a lot more in the previous chapters.

 

[Hammster]

Hammster, would you argue with a stop sign because it wasn't high enough off the ground?

No.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Actually, it is.

Do you have scripture to back up the reason you believe that explicit scripture, inspired by God, is wrong, lying, or otherwise misleading? The scripture says that unbelievers 'glorified God' - even Philistines, enemies of God and His people. You will need something a lot stronger than personal assertion to handwave away the word of God.

 

[JamesFW]

Clever. But you tried to sum up a whole argument based on a few verses, and preteded that was all Paul said about it. He actually said a lot more in the previous chapters.

Let's see if you can sum a whole from a few verses. I bet you can and will. In fact, you already have. Are you preaching to yourself?