TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
The bible does not teach original sin.
John said " sin is the transgression of the law " which makes the idea of original sin impossible.
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
On Free Will
- Thread starter Hammster
- Start date
- Status
John said " sin is the transgression of the law " which makes the idea of original sin impossible.
Actually the one of the oldest denominations, the EOC, does not teach the doctrine of Original Sin, which was mistakenly formed because Augustine did not know Greek.
An existing fragment of one of Pelagius letters outlines all he was condemned of. The accusations were certainly heresies but the letter was written to deny that he ever believed or taught such things.
When all the churches together decided that Pelagius was a heretic, swayed by Augustine's faulty logic, the EOC did not join.
Upvote
0
TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
The order of events must have happened one way or the other:
---If this rich young man were totally depraved, then he never would have understood nor kept ANY of the commandments to begin with (Luke 18:21).
---so he was either able to understand and keep the commandments while UNREGENERATED or if he were REGENERATED earlier in order to keep the commandments, then being ALREADY REGENERATED he would have done as Christ said and follow Christ.
---if he did not do as Christ said and follow Christ because he was UNREGENERATED then how did he understand and keep the commandments while UNREGENERATED before?
====
If total depravity were true, then Pharaoh would have been totally depraved, predisposed to disobey God. Yet Calvinists tell me God directly hardened Pharaoh's heart against his will so Pharaoh would disobey. But why would God have to hardened Pharaoh's heart directly and against his will to cause him to disobey if Pharaoh was ALREADY predisposed to disobey by his totally depraved nature?
If Pharaoh were UNREGENERATED and unable to understand, then why send Moses to him with the command to "let My people go" when Pharaoh could not understand the command, much less obey it? Was Moses' words just gibberish to Pharaoh? If Pharaoh could understand those words of God (which he did in refusing to let them go), then why couldn't he, (everyone else) understand other words and commands that come from God as words of the gospel? If Pharaoh, while "UNREGENERATED", could understand the command to 'let my people go" then no reason why myself and everyone else cannot understand the command to "believe" or "repent"?
Upvote
0
PeaceB
Well-Known Member
- Apr 20, 2017
- 1,592
- 662
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Engaged
Well, this is what Wikipedia has to say on the topic:
Eastern Orthodoxy
The Eastern Orthodox's version of original sin is the view that sin originates with the Devil, "for the devil sinneth from the beginning. (1 John iii. 8)".[66] They acknowledge that the introduction of ancestral sin[67][better source needed] into the human race affected the subsequent environment for humanity (see also traducianism). However, they never accepted Augustine of Hippo's notions of original sin and hereditary guilt.[68][better source needed]
Orthodox Churches accept the teachings of John Cassian, as do Catholic Churches eastern and western,[42] in rejecting the doctrine of total depravity, by teaching that human nature is "fallen", that is, depraved, but not totally. Augustine Casiday states that Cassian "baldly asserts that God's grace, not human free will, is responsible for 'everything which pertains to salvation' – even faith."[43] Cassian points out that people still have moral freedom and one has the option to choose to follow God. Colm Luibhéid says that, according to Cassian, there are cases where the soul makes the first little turn,[44] while Augustine Casiday says that, in Cassian's view, any sparks of goodwill that may exist, not directly caused by God, are totally inadequate and only direct divine intervention ensures spiritual progress.[45] and Lauren Pristas says that "for Cassian, salvation is, from beginning to end, the effect of God's grace."[46]
Eastern Orthodoxy accepts the doctrine of ancestral sin: "Original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin."[69] "As from an infected source there naturally flows an infected stream, so from a father infected with sin, and consequently mortal, there naturally proceeds a posterity infected like him with sin, and like him mortal."[70]
The Orthodox Church in America makes clear the distinction between "fallen nature" and "fallen man" and this is affirmed in the early teaching of the Church whose role it is to act as the catalyst that leads to true or inner redemption. Every human person born on this earth bears the image of God undistorted within themselves.[71] In the Orthodox Christian understanding, they explicitly deny that humanity inherited guilt from anyone. Rather, they maintain that we inherit our fallen nature. While humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death."[72]
The view of the Eastern Orthodox Church varies on whether Mary is free of all actual sin or concupiscence. Some Patristic sources imply that she was cleansed from sin at the Annunciation, while the liturgical references are unanimous that she is all-holy from the time of her conception.[73][74]
The Eastern Orthodox's version of original sin is the view that sin originates with the Devil, "for the devil sinneth from the beginning. (1 John iii. 8)".[66] They acknowledge that the introduction of ancestral sin[67][better source needed] into the human race affected the subsequent environment for humanity (see also traducianism). However, they never accepted Augustine of Hippo's notions of original sin and hereditary guilt.[68][better source needed]
Orthodox Churches accept the teachings of John Cassian, as do Catholic Churches eastern and western,[42] in rejecting the doctrine of total depravity, by teaching that human nature is "fallen", that is, depraved, but not totally. Augustine Casiday states that Cassian "baldly asserts that God's grace, not human free will, is responsible for 'everything which pertains to salvation' – even faith."[43] Cassian points out that people still have moral freedom and one has the option to choose to follow God. Colm Luibhéid says that, according to Cassian, there are cases where the soul makes the first little turn,[44] while Augustine Casiday says that, in Cassian's view, any sparks of goodwill that may exist, not directly caused by God, are totally inadequate and only direct divine intervention ensures spiritual progress.[45] and Lauren Pristas says that "for Cassian, salvation is, from beginning to end, the effect of God's grace."[46]
Eastern Orthodoxy accepts the doctrine of ancestral sin: "Original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin."[69] "As from an infected source there naturally flows an infected stream, so from a father infected with sin, and consequently mortal, there naturally proceeds a posterity infected like him with sin, and like him mortal."[70]
The Orthodox Church in America makes clear the distinction between "fallen nature" and "fallen man" and this is affirmed in the early teaching of the Church whose role it is to act as the catalyst that leads to true or inner redemption. Every human person born on this earth bears the image of God undistorted within themselves.[71] In the Orthodox Christian understanding, they explicitly deny that humanity inherited guilt from anyone. Rather, they maintain that we inherit our fallen nature. While humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death."[72]
The view of the Eastern Orthodox Church varies on whether Mary is free of all actual sin or concupiscence. Some Patristic sources imply that she was cleansed from sin at the Annunciation, while the liturgical references are unanimous that she is all-holy from the time of her conception.[73][74]
Beyond that, I will have to take your word on it.
Upvote
0
TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
My bible does contain John 10 and it says nothing about men being totally depraved where man has to first be miraculously acted by God before man can understand.
You did not specify anything in John 10 so I will assume you refer to verse 26 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."
Jesus is not saying one must first be of Him before one is able to believe. Such an idea puts salvation BEFORE belief which cannot be biblically supported.
Earlier in the context, John 8, Jesus is having a discourse with Jews, Pharisees.
Some believed him John 8:30-31. Then Jesus tells them "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." to which they took exception with "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"
As the discourse goes on the Jews lay claim to being descendants of Abraham as if being Abraham's descendant was all needed to be saved. To which Christ replies " If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." If they were Abraham's (spiritual) children then they would do the works of Abraham, ie, have an obedient faith as Abraham in obeying God's will.
Christ says to these Jews "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham." To which they respond "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."
These Pharisees make the claim that they were "of God". So in John 10:26 when Jesus said "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." Jesus was proving they were not "believers indeed" (John 8:31) and not of God as they claimed. If these Pharisees were of God as they claimed and knew the OT law as they claimed they did, then they would have known that Jesus was the Messiah promised them and would have believed Him and been of Him. Yet their not being of Christ sheep was the proof-evidence of their unbelief and proof-evidence that they were not of God as they so claimed. As McGarvey puts it "Failure to be Christ's sheep was not the cause, but the evidence of their unbelief." (my emp)
Upvote
0
- Jan 2, 2015
- 11,556
- 5,727
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Presbyterian
- Marital Status
- Married
It's a simple sentence: But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
It can only be taken one way. The reason they don't believe is that they are not His sheep.
Upvote
0
TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
I am a member of the church of Christ and I reach the same conclusion as the bible...no original sin. All men are born into the world pure and innocent....God " formeth the spirit of man within him" Zech 12:1 and God hath "made man upright" Eccl 7:29 so the soul in man would be as pure and upright as its Maker and thereby David would praise God "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made" Psalms 139:14. David was not praising God for making him an impure, vile, rebellious, lost reprobate sinner.
Upvote
0
HeLeadethMe
Well-Known Member
- Apr 27, 2017
- 420
- 366
- 65
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Without Him we can do nothing........nothing, nothing, nada. It is not just for understanding the scriptures, though He does Help us with that too.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit so as to not leave us as orphans. He didn't send the Holy Spirit and then take Him away later thereby making us orphans.......we who have the SPIRIT of adoption. And His spiritual gifts are for the edifying of the church.....when did the church stop needing to be edified. But never mind, I said I would not argue.
Upvote
0
PeaceB
Well-Known Member
- Apr 20, 2017
- 1,592
- 662
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Engaged
I am not sure why you continue to write me concerning Calvinist doctrine, when I have already made it clear to you that I do not hold to Calvinist teaching. I hold original sin but I do not hold total depravity. So I will let you continue the debate concerning total depravity with people who hold that.
Nor is my position that non-believers "miraculous enlightenment from the HS to be able to understand, just be able to read the written word". It appears that you have misunderstood my position.
If you want to know exactly what I hold, you can read these documents:
During the time of Felix IV
Paul III Council of Trent-5
Paul III Council of Trent-6
Now, you believe that there is no "original sin" and that man has free will to choose good or evil. Thus, logically, you must hold that man is capable of meriting his own salvation without applying the merits that Jesus earned by his death on the cross. That is, because a man is not condemned by Adam's original sin, and because a man has free will and the ability to choose good and evil, all he need do is choose good over evil throughout his life, and if he does not sin, he should go to heaven regardless of whether or not he ever hears or accepts the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the logical conclusion that flows from the views that you hold, and it is what the Pelagians held. Are you OK with that?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
No, for your way has one saved (of Christ's sheep) BEFORE one even believes which goes against the numerous verses that put belief/faith BEFORE salvation. The next verse says (v27) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" Jesus said MY SHEEP, his is a qualifying statement that to qualify to be of Christ's sheep one must hear and follow. You have one of Christ's sheep BEFORE one hears and follows. John 3:18 unbelief is an "condemned already" state not a "saved already" state as you have it.
Jesus was simply refuting the Pharisees claim they were believers who were of God.
Again McGarvey says "Failure to be Christ's sheep was not the cause, but the evidence of their unbelief"
Their not being of Christ's sheep was proof they were not believers-not of God has they claimed and not the cause of their unbelief.
Upvote
0
PeaceB
Well-Known Member
- Apr 20, 2017
- 1,592
- 662
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Engaged
Thank you. But could you please be a little more specific?
Church of Christ may refer to:
Are you referring to any of the churches listed above, or is safe for us to assume that you have set up the Seabass Church of Christ in your own backyard?- One of several New Testament designations for local groups of people following the teachings of Jesus Christ; the term is plural, only the plural form is found in the Bible (e.g., Romans 16:16)
- The entire body of Christians throughout the world, regardless of denomination or tradition, i.e. the Christian Church or Christendom.
- The Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church (primarily used by members of these churches)
- Churches influenced by the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement:
- Restoration Movement groups originating in Scotland and the U.S.
- Churches of Christ
- The churches of Christ (non-institutional), an identifiable subgroup within the churches of Christ which opposes congregational support of institutions (such as orphans homes, Bible colleges, etc. on the basis of lack of adequate Biblical support for doing so)
- Christian churches and churches of Christ
- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
- Churches of Christ
- Non-US groups
- Other historically related groups
- Restoration Movement groups originating in Scotland and the U.S.
- Churches of Christ (non-Restoration Movement), autonomous congregations using the name "church of Christ" that have no historical connection to the Restoration Movement
- Latter Day Saint denominations, which include:
- Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints) - the original Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith in 1830.
- Pure Church of Christ - First schismatic sect in the Latter Day Saint movement, this denomination was organized in 1831 in Kirtland, Ohio, by Wycam Clark and Northrop Sweet.
- Church of Christ (Ezra Booth) - A schismatic sect organized in 1836 by Ezra Booth in Kirtland, Ohio.
- Church of Christ (Parrishite), an extinct Latter Day Saint denomination organized in 1837 by Warren Parrish in Kirtland, Ohio.
- Church of Christ (William Chubby), an extinct Latter Day Saint denomination organized in the Late 1830s by William Chubby.
- Church of Christ (Hiram Page), an extinct Latter Day Saint denomination organized in 1842 by Hiram Page, one of the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon's golden plates.
- Church of Christ (Wightite) - This denomination, founded by Lyman Wight in 1844, split from the Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints) at the death of Joseph Smith.
- Church of Christ (Temple Lot) - Informally referred to as "Hedrickites", this denomination is headquartered in Independence, Missouri. on what is known as the Temple Lot. It was founded by Granville Hedrick in July 1863.
- Church of Christ (Fettingite) - Informally referred to as the "Fettingites", after its founder Otto Fetting, this denomination is split from the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) in 1929.
- Church of Christ with the Elijah Message, which broke away from the Temple Lot church in 1929
- Church of Christ (Restored) - This denomination split from the Church of Christ (Fettingite) in the late 1930s under the leadership of A. C. DeWolf.
- Church of Christ at Halley's Bluff, which broke away from the Temple Lot church in 1932
- Church of Christ (Hancock) - Founded by Pauline Hancock, this denomination is split from the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) in 1946.
- Church of Christ (Whitmerite) - A denomination, founded in 1847 and reformed 1871, based on the claims of David Whitmer, one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.
- Church of Christ (Brewsterite) - A denomination founded in 1848 by James C. Brewster and Hazen Aldrich.
- Latter Day Church of Christ, a Mormon fundamentalist denomination based in Utah
- Church of Christ (David Clark) - Also known as "Lion of God Ministry". Clark broke from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in November 1985.
- Church of Christ - This denomination, founded by Howard Leighton-Floyd and H. H. Burt in 1965, split from the Church of Christ With the Elijah Message.
- Church of Christ in Congo, the administrative and spiritual union of denominations in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
- Church of Christ in Thailand, the largest Protestant Church in Thailand.
- Church of Christ, Instrumental, also known as the Kelleyites, a Baptist denomination in Arkansas
- Church of Christ, Scientist, also known as Christian Science
- Iglesia ni Cristo (Filipino translation for "Church of Christ"), an independent church originating in the Philippines
- United Church of Christ in the Philippines, the largest Protestant group in the Philippines
- United Church of Christ – Congregational in the Marshall Islands, the largest religious group in the Marshall Islands
- United Church of Christ, a mainline Protestant denomination in the United States amalgamated from four congregationalist groups in 1957 (see also Christian Connexion)
Upvote
0
- Jan 2, 2015
- 11,556
- 5,727
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Presbyterian
- Marital Status
- Married
God has already determined who He would give to Christ. These are His sheep. They respond to His voice BECAUSE they are His sheep. The verse couldn't be more clear, just as the Book of Life has already been written and sealed.
Upvote
0
TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
John 15:5
Jesus' point in this verse is that you can do nothing of yourself, you cannot make yourself by yourself righteous before God. You need to Christ to be seen as righteous before God, you have to be of the Vine.
Jesus was perfectly sinless, therefore He is perfectly righteous. So man must be "in Christ" and be covered by His perfect righteousness to be seen as righteous by God. It is by water baptism that one is baptized into Christ and puts on Christ (Gal 3:27) putting on Christ's perfect righteousness so a man can be found complete/perfect "IN CHRIST" Col 1:28. Therefore you cannot procure your own salvation by yourself apart from Christ, apart from the Vine.
Even though man cannot procure his own salvation by himself does not mean that man does not have a role in his own salvation. Those in Acts 2 were lost spiritually dead, yet while in this state they were willing able to understand what was preached by Peter, be pricked in their hearts and asked what to do and obeyed what they were commanded.
So when it says "ye can do nothing", those lost in Acts 2 did so something in being saved ("save yourselves" v40) but what they could not do was to save themselves by themselves apart fromthe Vine.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Jennifer Rothnie
Well-Known Member
Scripture mentions many 'natural men' (that is, without faith in Christ who have not received the Holy Spirit) doing certain things that were spiritually good or glorified God:
Egyptian midwives: "The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live....The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.” So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own." Ex 1:15-21
Ahab's (temporary) humility: "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son." I Kings 21:49
Cornelius: "At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly...The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God." Acts 10:1-4
Good Samaritan: But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he had compassion on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”" Lk 10:33-37
Nebuchadnezzar glorifying God: "King Nebuchadnezzar, To the nations and peoples of every language, who live in all the earth: May you prosper greatly! It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me. How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation." Dan 4:1-3
And
"At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation....Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." Dan 4:34-37
Sailors: At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to him. Joan 1:16
There are many other specific examples in scripture, and some general comments as well about the general ability of man to obey, seek God, and do right. [None of this contradicts the fact that no human can -perfectly- obey, seek God, and do right, and that all have fallen short of the glory of God.]
Mankind seeking God: Paul said, "From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. His purpose (will) was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him--though he is not far from any one of us." (Acts 17:26-27)
General ability to do what is right: "And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, 'The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.' If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done." Ezek 33:12-13
General ability to do what is right: "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Rom 2:13-16
General ability to give good gifts: "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!” Matt 7:9-11
Etc.
Upvote
0
TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
Original sin is usually accredited to Augustine (not to Christ or His apostles) and made more popular by men as Calvin and Luther.
" Augustiine's formulation of original sin was popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin,..."
Original sin - Wikipedia
Again, John's statement that sin is transgression of the law makes the idea of original sin impossible.
Yes, man has free will to choose between good and evil but that does not in any way imply man merits his salvation. Salvation is a free gift that cannot be merited. God's gift of salvation is CONDITIONAL and not UNconditional. Since the gift of salvation is CONDITIONAL man must use his free will to choose to meet those conditions God has placed upon His free gift to receive that gift and working to meet the conditions do not, cannot merit the free gift. Man can also choose NOT to meet the conditions and therefore will NOT receive the free gift.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 144,404
- 27,057
- 57
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
I never assumed total depravity from this text. You made a comment about the text, I asked you to defend the comment, and instead of doing that, you started in on what you think I believe about the text, and still haven't answered the challenge.
It's a giant deflection.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 144,404
- 27,057
- 57
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
Upvote
0
I believe Paul said this -
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? (Romans 10)
He said nothing of regeneration, nor election, nor predestination, nor being drawn, nor spiritually seeing.
Upvote
0
TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
I do not know of any "official" church of Christ website(s). The church of Christ has no official representatives, so I speak-post of myself not representing any other church of Christ member and no other member represents me. Each congregation is autonomous and one congregation has no business in the affairs of a sister congregation.
What Is the Church of Christ?
The above link gives an accurate depiction.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
