On Dreams and Visions and Guarding Ourselves from Spiritual Delusion

[heron]

I agree that most dreams are not mandates. And to that, its not a sin to ignore them. But I try very hard not to put "God in a box" and think God cant do such and such because I have never read of it in scripture.

I think that both your viewpoints were closer to each other than how the conversation was going. It's a good conversation to have every once in a while -- iron sharpening iron, keeping us on an intentional track.

 

[PerrySB]

This is something that has confused me for a long time. One of my family members was a medium, and incredibly accurate one. I also believe that sorcery is a sin and that we should not attempt to contact the spiritual world.

With that said I have had several visions that proved completely accurate. I have been referred to as a psychic and I am very quick to say I am not. I have been told even though my visions proved to be accurate they were evil or from Satan. Nothing in them ever disputed the gospel and generally they were about issues with other people either something they needed to hear or in a couple cases warnings of issues that were transpiring in their lives. They do not happen very often but I can certainly tell the difference between normal dreams that generally make little of no sense, and what I perceive to be a vision.

Because of the what our pastor and church leadership has told me I no longer talk about them but I’m very confused and only wish to be in God’s will.

I do appreciate all the thoughts and opinions expressed here but I’m still somewhat confused. I suppose my question should be, should I just keep these to myself or share them as needed?

 

[IamBradwhoareu]

This is something that has confused me for a long time. One of my family members was a medium, and incredibly accurate one. I also believe that sorcery is a sin and that we should not attempt to contact the spiritual world.

With that said I have had several visions that proved completely accurate. I have been referred to as a psychic and I am very quick to say I am not. I have been told even though my visions proved to be accurate they were evil or from Satan. Nothing in them ever disputed the gospel and generally they were about issues with other people either something they needed to hear or in a couple cases warnings of issues that were transpiring in their lives. They do not happen very often but I can certainly tell the difference between normal dreams that generally make little of no sense, and what I perceive to be a vision.

Because of the what our pastor and church leadership has told me I no longer talk about them but I’m very confused and only wish to be in God’s will.

I do appreciate all the thoughts and opinions expressed here but I’m still somewhat confused. I suppose my question should be, should I just keep these to myself or share them as needed?

There were many prophets living in ancient Isreal. It was a profession that had many rewards and drawbacks. Most people never knew for sure if they were of God or not. The only way to know for sure was if thier visions, dreams, and prophetic utterances came true 100%. Being close or very accurate doesnt count, and we read that if they were found out to be false prophets, they either had to leave the land or be stoned. Once someone declared themselves a prophet of God, they had to show the right attitude.... thier life should reflect a godliness, and they should know the right "words" to say to convince others they are prophets of God. As all these things can be learned and faked, people are wise to be skeptical.

It truly doesnt matter if others believe your visions or not. If your words are from the Lord, they will not return void. If they are not from the Lord, they will simply be your own words and not bring any edification to the believers in Christ.

Back to the ancient Isrealite prophets, they would often proclaim themselves prophets and using guile and careful speech try to make people believe they were prophets as that afforded them free housing and food. They would come to someones house and request to be housed and fed by the owners of the house. They owners of the house knew that if this prophet was of God, they would be greatly blessed, and that if they turned them away as a true prophet or treated them badly, they could have God angry at them, so out of fear, it was rare that these prophets were ever refused help and they were treated with respect out of fear. But if they did things that were OBVIOUSLY not of God (like being intimate with someone who is married to another as just one example) or thier dreams and visions were found to be not 100% accurate, the fear that the people had of them often turned to LOTS of anger resulting in them being stoned.

Most self proclaimed prophets these days dont have to worry about being stoned. But they still fall under the same criteria of thier words being 100% correct if they are of God. God doesnt make mistakes, and any true prophet of God that God is truly using will only share what is 100%. So I would say nowdays, ones responsiblity to a modern day prophet would be to listen, to attempt to be respectful, but to be wary of the words, patiently waiting to see if the prophets words pass the test of 100% accuracy. So people being wary of your dreams and visions is normal and to be expected. If your visions and words that occur because of them are OF THE LORD, they shall not return void, so simply speak what you feel is from the Lord and then leave it to the power of the Holy Spirit to make those words accomplish Gods will. If you see nothing come of your words, then perhaps you are deluded in who is giving you these words. These are my thoughts.

 

[Standing Up]

People wiser than you and me disagree. It's not a sin to ignore such things for a lay person. More often than not, those who think they have such things from God really don't.

What of the Virgin Mary's husband? Was he directed by dreams?

OTOH, how many religions are out there based precisely on dreams and visions? Islam, LDS, JW?, Constantine?, SDA?, any others come to mind?

The plumb line for us should be the 'as it is written' in Scripture. And He tells us He will give dreams and visions, but they won't be for new doctrine, but to proclaim God Incarnate, Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.

 

[Standing Up]

This is something that has confused me for a long time. One of my family members was a medium, and incredibly accurate one. I also believe that sorcery is a sin and that we should not attempt to contact the spiritual world.

With that said I have had several visions that proved completely accurate. I have been referred to as a psychic and I am very quick to say I am not. I have been told even though my visions proved to be accurate they were evil or from Satan. Nothing in them ever disputed the gospel and generally they were about issues with other people either something they needed to hear or in a couple cases warnings of issues that were transpiring in their lives. They do not happen very often but I can certainly tell the difference between normal dreams that generally make little of no sense, and what I perceive to be a vision.

Because of the what our pastor and church leadership has told me I no longer talk about them but I’m very confused and only wish to be in God’s will.

I do appreciate all the thoughts and opinions expressed here but I’m still somewhat confused. I suppose my question should be, should I just keep these to myself or share them as needed?

With all due respect to your church leadership, they apparently don't know either. So, as you have done, feel free to seek out Godly advice from brothers and sisters (Deut. 32:7).

Part of the problem with all of this is one of definition. Nearly everyone thinks that a NT prophet is like an OT prophet. Not true. Peter compares the true and false OT prophet with true and false NT teachers (2 Peter 2:1). Paul said we are built on the foundation of (OT) prophets and (NT) apostles with Christ as the cornerstone (Eph. 2:20). So, this means there are no more OT type prophets, no more new doctrine visions and dreams from NT/OT prophets.

What of this then? Eph. 4:11 And He gave some {as} apostles, and some {as} prophets, and some {as} evangelists, and some {as} pastors and teachers, ?

What is a NT prophet? Agabus was one. Phillip had daughters who were. There are others throughout history. Not one valid NT prophet gives us any new doctrine (so toss those religions based on what the founder saw in a dream/vision). It was not their job to do so (it was the Apostles' job).

So, what does a NT prophet do? 1 Cor. 14:3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.

Also, you make another point about 'going out' to get a vision or dream, which is a sin. Correct. These things come to us. We don't control what dream we have or vision we see. If we ask of God for wisdom, will He give us evil (Mt. 7:11). But still, we test these things. Does it edify or exhort or console?

Lastly, keep in mind this--"You did not choose Me but I chose you, ... (Jn. 15:16)

 

[PerrySB]

I wish to thank each of you for your thoughts and opinions. Because of my background before becoming a Christian I’m very aware of how evil can appear good, or lead us astray. Some of my previous background as I stated was family member that was involved in the occult and yes I did dabble in it for a while because of the power I seen in it. I was also involved with the Free Will Masons.

I have never had a vision that disputed or even involved doctrine. Each time is has been issues involving either a few people or individuals. One of the church deacons was stealing from the church offering. I had no possible way of knowing this since I’m not involved in that aspect of our church operations. I brought this to the pastor’s attention and two weeks later they caught him stealing. There were other issues that were brought to light that I feel I should not share, each time they were proven to be accurate. Sometimes I get very strong feelings about particular people but I never share those feelings or insights, and many times they are very confusing. I was told that I have been shown these things to cause conflict within the body and that is something I would never wish to do.
As I stated, I’m not a psychic or a prophet in any sense, just a regular Christian believer that is very much a layman. My wife and I are involved in marriage counseling and find that very rewarding especially when we see a marriage that is in trouble restored.

 

[heron]

I was told that I have been shown these things to cause conflict within the body

Ha ha, well calling out leaders for stealing will certainly cause conflict! But God seems to be showing you that peace at any price is not the wisest way to church health.

If you were at a different church, you might find many people who believe that God speaks to us through dreams, visions, prophecy, still small voices, and hunches. Some people carry out their Christianity like this every day.

This is the premise of the Charismatic church -- that the Holy Spirit continually works through us, and shows us things. We are in cooperation with Him, if we are yielded.

As for it being a skill, I think some people are predisposed to listening. There are gifts of the Body of Christ, and each person has different tendencies or given giftings that help strengthen the Body. Catching someone stealing can definitely strengthen the Body! Over time.

Highly social people may be gifted for hospitality or motivating, but have less time/space to hear inner voices. When everyone expresses what God puts in them, they come together for a healthy and strong church.

I think that many people could hear from God more, but have constant media input. If you make space to hear from God, any of us will hear Him talk. If you are getting dreams and visions about true things you don't have knowledge of, then they are coming from an external source. You are receiving, and deciding what to do with the information. It sounds like you are handling it wisely.

Pray that others in your fellowship will begin to see how God is working within them. Work to raise them up in their own ways of how God wants to use them. Expect that every member's gift will be different, because that is how a complete body is formed.

 

[PerrySB]

This is the premise of the Charismatic church -- that the Holy Spirit continually works through us, and shows us things. We are in cooperation with Him, if we are yielded.

My wife and I attended a church for a short time and they certainly believed in the gifts of the Spirit. However they made such an issue with speaking in tongues that it kind of pushed us away. Neither of us has been given that gift, nor when I prayed about it did I feel that it was an issue the Lord wanted me to concern myself with, my wife had the same feelings. I know this is off topic but we felt like we just didn’t fit in because of how we felt about that particular gift. For those who have been given the gift of tongues and interpretation I think that is wonderful.
Our church is a non denominational church, our pastor believes that the gifts of the Spirit did not end at Pentecost but is still with us today, however I do not see them used within the body.

 

[heron]

Well, there's an example of not using the gifts properly. Intimidation about not doing things properly is certainly not edifying the Body of Christ, or bringing anyone closer to God.

The message should never be more important than the God who delivers it, and the mode of delivery is just a vehicle, a tool to convey the message. The person delivering the message is not important either. God is.

Tongues, dreams, prophecy... without love, a gong.

 

[IamBradwhoareu]

My wife and I attended a church for a short time and they certainly believed in the gifts of the Spirit. However they made such an issue with speaking in tongues that it kind of pushed us away. Neither of us has been given that gift, nor when I prayed about it did I feel that it was an issue the Lord wanted me to concern myself with, my wife had the same feelings. I know this is off topic but we felt like we just didn’t fit in because of how we felt about that particular gift. For those who have been given the gift of tongues and interpretation I think that is wonderful.
Our church is a non denominational church, our pastor believes that the gifts of the Spirit did not end at Pentecost but is still with us today, however I do not see them used within the body.

I never quite understood how people got the idea that one MUST speak in tongues to be a true believer or to have the Holy Spirit. And typically those who do, all speak in tongues while in church with no order and no interpretation which IS spoke against. Scripture tells us we are all members of ONE body... the body of Christ... each with different gifts... some are the arms, some the legs... etc. Are we all to have feet and shake hands with this foot as if it was a hand? Tongues are spoken of as the LEAST of all gifts as it only edifies the individual believer (unless an interpreter interprets so that others are edified). I have several gifts of the spirit, but not the gift of tongues. Gifts are to be used in todays church for Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tommorrow. Forget about people and negativity about tongues, simply speak to the Lord and ask him to show you the gift(s) you already have, so that you might use it(them). The Lord showed in the parable of the talents, that when when He left the earth, he gave us all a talent, and when He returns, He wants to know we used them and not hide them in the ground. Trust in the Lord to show you your gift and He will not disapoint you... but persist in faith... for the Lord works on faith and will not disapoint you if you truly seek in earnestness.

 

[Standing Up]

I never quite understood how people got the idea that one MUST speak in tongues to be a true believer or to have the Holy Spirit. -snip-

Over time, it became a badge of honor for some as the Charismatic movement of the last 200? years evolved.

IMO, Roman Catholics and Orthodox (traditional church) could claim (rightly or wrongly) apostolic succession, teaching magisteriums, and councils, so what could the others "outside" do? How would God distinguish them outside the well-built edifices. The response was we have the Spirit as evidenced by tongues. That is proof of our God-given power and authority. We are the church, not the buildings.

Like everything else, there are misunderstandings and abuses. At Jerusalem, the Jews first spoke in tongues. At Cornelius' house, the Gentiles first spoke in tongues. It wasn't ever meant to be a 'separater', but a unity. It is one of many gifts of the Spirit for the Body.

 

[heron]

There are also a couple of OT passages where it appears people might have been... describing a continual prophesying of small groups of people.

 

[offelias]

Hi there,
Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents after reading this post yesterday. I watched a tv show in the evening that had a sentence which made me think of this post:

- 'The book of revelations is made up of dreams and visions'.

So I agree that God speaks to us regularly through our dreams if that is where He chooses to speak to us. However, I agree with the other opinions about discernment.

It's one thing to determine whether it is a spiritual dream, or just from the mind.
The other thing is determining who gave you this dream.

I'll give a quick example of my dreams, though I'm not implying any importance to them. (Well to be honest, I guess I don't understand them)
I regularly have vivid dreams and nightmares most nights. I know enough about my own dreams to know the difference between something that hasn't come from me, and something which has. That's the easy part (to me)..

So to one reoccurring dream in particular..

Sometimes it's as though I wake up in a strange, dark place. Sometimes it isn't so obviously dark. Someone will be there, convincing me of committing a wrong act, or pushing me into something. At this point, I usually pick up on the unusual atmosphere that's different from my usual nightmares, so I say no. The more I say no, the more insistent the person becomes, until I feel the need to speak the Lord's Prayer. (Sometimes I'm unable to but thinking it seems to work too). After a few moments, an old woman will come along at lightspeed, sending the evil entity away and suddenly there will be lights and a lot of people around. Great stuff. Back to normal sleep.

Then one day, I was walking along with this woman in a dream, having a conversation, telling her about these dreams to which she replied 'Don't worry about him, it's just Nicodemus.'


So at first I thought great - when something goes wrong even in a dream, God seems to be sending someone to help me out when I ask. However, Nicodemus doesn't seem in the bible to be a demonic nature. It's my opinion that this last one may be a false one.

Sometimes trying to over think the meaning of something can do more harm than good?

 

[heron]

The more I say no, the more insistent the person becomes, until I feel the need to speak the Lord's Prayer.

What a great dream!

That's a good example of hearing God one minute and hearing something else another time. Or at least needing to stop and ask whether it's worth listening.

Not trying to get off track, but consider this...


Nicodemus /Niko/dhmov = "conqueror"


Even though Nicodemus himself was not a demon, the dream could have been showing that a similar mindset was at work.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee, a religious leader of the Jews who challenged Jesus' teachings. He admitted from seeing miracles, that Jesus was sent from God, but had doubt about Jesus' teachings.

He was stuck in what he believed to be correct... his religious training.

Jesus said to him,
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

The dream harasser kept returning to you, and you responded with a works mindset, until you saw that God could resolve things automatically.

Religiosity keeps returning to us with our shoulds, trying to bind us and prevent us from allowing God's miraculous intervention.

I think there's a chance that this second dream was from God, but the words were taken literally. Dream words often improve with research, and lead us down trails of understanding.

Confusing words can be cues-- things that God hopes you will investigate.

John 3:1 - NSN - with Study Resources - with Context - Study Desk

 

[offelias]

That sounds really interesting. I have to say I need to give it some thought before I understand fully what you mean though. I definitely haven't thought of it that way

Do you mean that perhaps I get too focused on what I think I know or understand to be, and so I restrict myself that way? I do have a natural tendancy to over-think in all aspects of my life, something I need to work on for sure.


Perhaps you could help me with another 'nightmare' I had a few years ago, that still bugs me from time to time. Apologies in advance for trailing from the OP!!


In short, I had decided to go back to church - I don't go any more because I find it a bit too traditional, the goers are all much much older than myself. Besides, I'm not sure that going to a building once a week makes me a better person.
So that night, I woke in my bed and there was about 6 or 7 dark figures stood around me taunting me. My bed twisted and shrank and grew again, very disorientated, and I couldn't speak or shout for help.
I woke up - but I wasn't awake, and this thinking I'd woken up then being taunted again went on a few times before I really woke up.
I went to my Dad's room and asked if I could stay in his room but obviously being an adult, I wasn't allowed. My brother came in and said that I could stay in his room and I was very grateful.
I followed him into his bedroom where he was watching my sister on the tv screen. At this point I thought 'this isn't right why would he do that?'
As soon as I realised I was still dreaming, my brother (not my brother) grabbed me with surreal strength and told me 'he's going to purge you of light just like he did to me'.

Wierd huh? Usually when I wake from a nightmare I jump up or shout etc. With this one when I really did wake, my eyes just opened as though I'd blinked and had never been to sleep. As immediately awake as a daisy!


Thank you for your opinions

 

[heron]

Wow, distressing to keep thinking you were in reality, and weren't. Part of that could just be hovering in waking state more than normal. That's a time where I hear sirens, feel my feet tangled, and incorporate real sensations into my dream. That might tie in with the twisting... inner ear imbalance.

"He's going to purge you of light" -- did your brother have a "he" in mind? The dark figures, your father, someone on the TV?

Do you mean that perhaps I get too focused on what I think I know or understand to be, and so I restrict myself that way?

I don't think it's necessarily about you, or a critical assessment... but that God could be showing you an adversary is related to religiosity.

And I might be wrong. I just thought there were more possibilities for the dream.

Christians do tend to confuse hearing, assuming all-or-nothing words from God. We all get sloppy with discernment when we are in a hurry to hear something new, and we trust our past favor with God. God allows us to stumble, and then we learn to ground ourselves in His Word, and in wisdom.

I know of people who feel they had real demonic attacks during dreams, which can be frightening and invasive. Taunting is characteristic... harassment and provoking fear and helplessness.

Your brother gave in to believing he could be harmed. He tried to warn you too, but didn't have a solution other than avoidance. Whatever solution hadn't worked for him. He watched on TV... observing and analyzing but not finding real solutions.

That's so typical of what people do these days, informing themselves but then not knowing how to act on the information.

If you are worried about supernatural attacks in your dreams, use scriptures to declare God's will for the situation. He has power and is willing to use it. You are His child. Ask for His protection, and He will be glad to protect you.

 

[Standing Up]

-snip-
If you are worried about supernatural attacks in your dreams, use scriptures to declare God's will for the situation. He has power and is willing to use it. You are His child. Ask for His protection, and He will be glad to protect you.

Or in wake time.

Eph. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Word-rhema

Vines-
The significance of rhema (as distinct from logos) is exemplified in the injunction to take "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God," Eph 6:17; here the reference is not to the whole Bible as such, but to the individual scripture which the Spirit brings to our remembrance for use in time of need, a prerequisite being the regular storing of the mind with Scripture.

 

[Tsadde]

To the original poster, Seashale,
My heart aches for you. For most of my life I too assumed that God spoke only to those "people much wiser than you or me". I assumed I would be too easily duped into believing false spirits to think I could actually hear from the Father himself. I was afraid of the power of the dark side to deceive.

It was fear-based, Seashale. Fear.

It was not based on trust in Our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Tim.1:7 "for God gave us a spirit, not of fear, but of power and love and self-control."

Yes, there are many false spirits out there, but to deny all dreams and visions for fear of being deceived is to deny that the Holy Spirit is greater than the enemy. Romans 8:15 "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba, Father!'"

We can continue to live like orphans, content with only the essentials like bread and water, food and shelter or we can embrace the loving intimate relationship Abba desires to have with each of us. He desires us to climb into his lap and listen to the things he has to say to us personally. Dreams and visions are one way he can speak. There are far too many examples in the scripture to deny this.

There are a lot of voices speaking to us all the time. How do we know HIS voice? By listening and becoming familiar with it.

The people who are most able to spot counterfeit money are the cashiers and tellers who handle the real stuff all the time. They know when something doesn't look or feel right. The person who refuses to ever use cash (and forgoes some of the advantages it brings) for fear of being tricked by counterfeit bills never learns discernment.

We learn to discern the false by becoming very familiar with the real! And the real always lines up with the Bible.

Jesus said his sheep know his voice --and follow him. They don't sit around in the sheep fold ignoring his voice in case they are wrong. We learn by following and by testing what we hear. 1 John 4 is SO important. It is ok, mandatory even, to ask the spirit bringing a dream or vision, "In the name of Jesus Christ tell me, do you confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh?" If your heart is filled with praise for the Lord Jesus Christ, if you can freely say "Yes! Jesus Christ has come in the flesh!" you are free to ask God what this dream/vision means, if anything. Sometimes, maybe most times, dreams are just mind-lint left over from the happenings of the day. Sometimes they are nuggets of gold.

It is important to note that it is in the context of testing the spirits that we are given the affirmation in verse 4 that "greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world." Yes, we ARE capable of discerning the validity of dreams through the power of the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 12:3 "No one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the power of the Holy Spirit."
1 John 4:4 "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh iIS from God.
11 Cor.13:5 "Examine yourselves to see whether or not you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? -unless you fail to meet the test!"

Seashale, Abba loves you. Yes, he loved the church fathers, and the wise men of former ages, but he adores YOU right now just as much. Ask HIM for wisdom. Ask Him to show you who you are in his eyes. Wow! Look at how much Abba loves you that He wants to call you his own child -a child of God. You are of far greater worth and are capable of far greater things through the power of the Holy Spirit than you think you are. And if God chooses to show you in a dream, test it, and if it passes the test give him praise and thanks.

You said, "It is never a sin to ignore our dreams and visions." A sin, perhaps not, but if you sent a special and personal card to your child and they refused to open it for fear it might be a lie, you would feel grieved. After a while, if your child ignored all your gifts because they couldn't trust you to have greater authority than a bully who might be trying to trick them, you would simply stop sending them, right?

Seashale, I want to encourage you to seek the Lord, seek the Lord, seek the Lord and TRUST him. He is GOOD. Very good.

To Gary P:
Quote=GaryP;53591833]I know how powerful the dark side is.[/quote]

Please be careful about giving glory to the dark side. Don't give in to fear. The commandment most frequently given in the Bible is:

"FEAR NOT!"

86 times, Gary! Yes the dark side is very powerful, BUT Jesus is greater!!!!! And the Ruler of the Universe wants to be your friend.

We are robbed of so many of the riches of God and the abundant life he has promised us when we are motivated by fear. Exercise those faith muscles. Do not speak words that honour the power of evil without saying that the enemy has been defeated AND that Jesus Christ is a gazillion+ times MORE POWERFUL!!!!!! FOR GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN US THAN HE WHO IS IN THE WORLD!!!

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!!!! JESUS CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH!! ALL GLORY, HONOUR, PRAISE AND POWER BE TO HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE -TO HIM WHO LOVES US!!!!!

 

[seashale76]

To the original poster, Seashale,
My heart aches for you. For most of my life I too assumed that God spoke only to those "people much wiser than you or me". I assumed I would be too easily duped into believing false spirits to think I could actually hear from the Father himself. I was afraid of the power of the dark side to deceive.

It was fear-based, Seashale. Fear.

My heart aches for YOU. Most of this particular board is ridiculous stuff with people insisting they are hearing from God when they aren't. They are deceiving themselves. My stance isn't based on fear, it is based on spending the majority of my childhood and early adulthood in Pentecostal madness and seeing people publicly claiming this, that, or the other and there was never ANY fruit from it. It was all about achieving that next great emotional high, deceiving yourself into thinking you were super special and getting proud about it. There was REAL fear in that world. I know ALL about it. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Thanks, but no thanks. it's nothing more than Christianity mixed with the occult. There are people on this board who think they are the two witness of the Apocalypse of John, and they truly believe this nonsense and expect the rest of us to do so as well. I've not seen one dream or vision posted on this board yet that I thought was at all encouraging to my faith. I just get discouraged at all the occultism that passes as gifts of the Holy Spirit in people's minds.

It was not based on trust in Our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Tim.1:7 "for God gave us a spirit, not of fear, but of power and love and self-control."

Yes, there are many false spirits out there, but to deny all dreams and visions for fear of being deceived is to deny that the Holy Spirit is greater than the enemy. Romans 8:15 "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba, Father!'"

First of all, I'm not doubting all dreams and visions. I am doubting most of what passes as such though- especially as seen on boards like this.

The people who are most able to spot counterfeit money are the cashiers and tellers who handle the real stuff all the time. They know when something doesn't look or feel right. The person who refuses to ever use cash (and forgoes some of the advantages it brings) for fear of being tricked by counterfeit bills never learns discernment.

Which is, once again, not most people who claim to do this.

Seashale, Abba loves you. Yes, he loved the church fathers, and the wise men of former ages, but he adores YOU right now just as much. Ask HIM for wisdom. Ask Him to show you who you are in his eyes. Wow! Look at how much Abba loves you that He wants to call you his own child -a child of God. You are of far greater worth and are capable of far greater things through the power of the Holy Spirit than you think you are. And if God chooses to show you in a dream, test it, and if it passes the test give him praise and thanks.

God doesn't change his tune from the time of the church fathers until now, yet you ignore them. I know you and those like you do. There are so many people out there making the Holy Spirit over in their own image and ignoring the Truth. I already have the Holy Spirit in me, thanks for the concern.

You said, "It is never a sin to ignore our dreams and visions." A sin, perhaps not, but if you sent a special and personal card to your child and they refused to open it for fear it might be a lie, you would feel grieved. After a while, if your child ignored all your gifts because they couldn't trust you to have greater authority than a bully who might be trying to trick them, you would simply stop sending them, right?

Baloney. This is why we have the Church, to keep us from all these doctrines of men that pop up and deceive people.

Seashale, I want to encourage you to seek the Lord, seek the Lord, seek the Lord and TRUST him. He is GOOD. Very good.

Same to you. May God guide you to Himself.

 

[seashale76]

Over time, it became a badge of honor for some as the Charismatic movement of the last 200? years evolved.

IMO, Roman Catholics and Orthodox (traditional church) could claim (rightly or wrongly) apostolic succession, teaching magisteriums, and councils, so what could the others "outside" do? How would God distinguish them outside the well-built edifices. The response was we have the Spirit as evidenced by tongues. That is proof of our God-given power and authority. We are the church, not the buildings.

Oh, dear. The old Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues bit isn't biblical. I was raised with that mindset. Has it ever occurred to you that's a false belief? It's pure doctrines of men.