I am your healer

[Strong in Him]

I know or met many of them, in person and on forum or on internet - I'm bold when talking to people and get to the point, and many have stated they want the money from disability or insurance INSTEAD of being made whole or healed in any way - they want the money money money money money ....

Yes, that's quite possible - although it may not be Christians doing that. I'm just saying, I don't know of anyone.

 

[Aaron112]

God knows a person's heart and whether or not they choose to remain sick. He can still heal.

God will not violate a person's free will, or take it away, until they die,
unless He says He will. (like when there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin due to trampling underfoot.... as written... )

 

[Strong in Him]

He would have too, if he could have.

You don't know that.
The fact remains, Jesus said, "do you want to be well?" and the man didn't even answer the question, never mind demonstrated faith.

 

[Aaron112]

Yes, that's quite possible - although it may not be Christians doing that. I'm just saying, I don't know of anyone.

It was almost always Christians .... and you likely know some if not many, or meet some or a few if not many, but they will not tell you up front ....

 

[Aaron112]

You don't know that.
The fact remains, Jesus said, "do you want to be well?" and the man didn't even answer the question, never mind demonstrated faith.

You don't know what you don't know.

 

[Strong in Him]

Admittedly God did perfectly know Abram's heart and mind through and through - his history, his birth , his childhood, his training, his thoughts, everything.

Yes, of course he did.
But we are not told "God decided to call Abram and give him a promise because he was impressed by his great faith/devotion/obedience." There is no indication that God's promise to Abram was a reward for anything Abram had done. Abram believed AFTER he had received God's promise.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes he did that for sure.

You're being totally one dimensional in your thinking.

No, just Scriptural.

 

[Bobber]

Yes - and I'm afraid you are not reading my posts properly because I replied that Jesus said this to his disciples. He never, ever said it to a sick person.

I think the right position on this would be he said what things soever you desire, clearly means he was teaching Jesus disciples to teach the world about what he taught to get results in prayer. The statement is open to whatever you need in prayer there is still something God generally expects although there can be exceptions but generally speaking he wants people to believe they receive WHEN THEY PRAY. Not just believe God is able. Because he said the prayer of faith shall bring remedy to the sick, as found in the book of James we can be confident physical healing plus a great many others things are a part of Mk 11:24. He said, "What things soever you desire when you pray"

 

[Bobber]

If there is a "space of time before one sees a manifestation", there has been a delay in granting the healing. Which contradicts what you said earlier about faith believing that God "answers speedily."

And I pointed out to you that God answered Daniel's prayer from the first day he prayed. It wasn't however manifested until 21 days later. Daniel 10:12 This give you an example of how God can answer a prayer speedily and there can be a space of time before it's manifested. Now you can reason around that anyway you want but that is found in scripture.

 

[Bobber]

You said that Abraham believed he was the father of many nations, then continually gave thanks to God.

Yes very true.

I said that he didn't seem to be believing - or giving thanks to God - when he agreed to sleep with Hagar to give Sarah a child.

Of course but I covered all this. At this time he was not putting a focus on Sarah as being able to bring forth a son. But there came a time he did and that time was in Gen 17. You really need to read three chapters....Gen16, 17 and 18 . Gen 16 was the event with Hagar. Gen 17 was when God said NO Sarah will be the one through whom the promised seed would come. You keep repeating that Abraham wasn't believing when it came to Hagar. That's really a mute point. You need to focus on chapters 17 and 18.

 

[Bobber]

Not seeing who you posted this too, but there are whole churches even publicly like on tv or youtube that believe they can claim God's Promises, and they do claim God's Promises, (and even charge money for it from others)

And there are many who believe one can claim he promises of God who DO NOT engage in unethical methods. And there are some who do not believe you're to claim the promises of God and don't engage in unethical methods of things either. So sorry but your statements really don't mean anything.

 

[Bobber]

So any of the promises God make to anyone in the Bible, so long as you think it is okay for you to claim, you will do so?

I never said that. Stop representing what I've said.

 

[Strong in Him]

And I pointed out to you that God answered Daniel's prayer from the first day he prayed. It wasn't however manifested until 21 days later. Daniel 10:12 This give you an example of how God can answer a prayer speedily and there can be a space of time before it's manifested. Now you can reason around that anyway you want but that is found in scripture.

I don't remember even mentioning Daniel, so not sure where that came from.

Yes, God CAN answer immediately - and he can ask us to wait (i.e there is a delay.)
I've said it all along; don't put God in a box and try to make out he can only heal in one way, under "the right" circumstances.

 

[Strong in Him]

You really need to read three chapters....Gen16, 17 and 18 . Gen 16 was the event with Hagar. Gen 17 was when God said NO Sarah will be the one through whom the promised seed would come. You keep repeating that Abraham wasn't believing when it came to Hagar. That's really a mute point. You need to focus on chapters 17 and 18.

No, I don't.
I said that Abraham could have told Sarah, "God has promised, we need to believe". He could have encouraged Sarah to trust and thank God instead of being keen to go and sleep with another woman, and then, when Sarah became jealous of Hagar's pregnancy, washed his hands of the whole thing and said "do what you want."
(Which, incidentally, is more or less how Adam treated Eve in the garden; instead of saying "God has said not to eat the fruit", he took it from her, ate it and then said to God "the woman YOU gave me told me to eat.)

What I was saying was that God gave Abram a promise and there were no conditions to that promise. It wasn't given for the first time in Genesis 17+18, but in Genesis 12. It wasn't given AFTER Abram believed, gave thanks, declared faith or anything else. God called Abram and said that he would give the land to him and to his descendants. He repeated that promise a few more times; Abraham did not see that promise fulfilled immediately, but around 10 years later.
SO, sometimes God promises things and we have to wait for their fulfilment.

 

[Bobber]

No, I don't.
I said that Abraham could have told Sarah, "God has promised, we need to believe". He could have encouraged Sarah to trust and thank God instead of being keen to go and sleep with another woman, and then, when Sarah became jealous of Hagar's pregnancy,

But that would have taken place in Gen 16. You need to ask yourself when did God say it would be through Sarah the seed would come? It was in Gen 17: 15 see below,

God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” Gen 17:15

What I was saying was that God gave Abram a promise and there were no conditions to that promise. It wasn't given for the first time in Genesis 17+18, but in Genesis 12.

But we're talking about how he used his FAITH in regard to Sarah and her condition.

The Bible is clear by Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations......AND...... 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Abraham could have staggered at this whole thing. If he had he would not have received the positive end result.

It wasn't given AFTER Abram believed, gave thanks, declared faith or anything else. God called Abram and said that he would give the land to him and to his descendants.

So I see what you're trying to say. You're trying to say if God gave you something it's just going to fall on you like ripe cherries off of a tree. You don't have to believe or do anything. That's not the way we see in scripture. Even with Israel God had given them the promised land but they had to go into the land and possess it through their faith and actions of belief. Heb 4 brings this out too.....we've been given promises....but he warns us Paul said he feared that God would do this and the people would fall short of manifesting forth the blessings of each promise. Heb 4:1,3

 

[Guojing]

I never said that. Stop representing what I've said.

This was what you said

"..now look at Duet 28 and see what all that entails. It includes healing plus a great many other things."

That is precisely what you are doing.

 

[Strong in Him]

But that would have taken place in Gen 16.

But it didn't!
Genesis 16:1-2; Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children, she had a slave girl named Hagar and said to Abram "go and sleep with Hagar, perhaps I can build a family through her."
Genesis 16:3 "Abram agreed to what Sarai said."
He did NOT say, "the Lord has promised me that I will have many descendants and an heir who is my own flesh and blood", Genesis 15:4-5. We need to be patient and believe the Lord's promise." Sarai's reasoning was "The Lord has not given me children; if my slave girl becomes pregnant, her children will be mine - and Abram will still be their father."

You need to ask yourself when did God say it would be through Sarah the seed would come? It was in Gen 17: 15

Abram had TWICE received a promise that he would have as many descendants as the stars in the sky. Sarai was his wife. They had clearly being trying for a family for some years because she said "the Lord has prevented me from having children." It's very likely that Abram would have thought "if I am to have many descendants, that means Sarai will be pregnant soon."
But maybe the Lord did have to spell it out to him because he thought "it doesn't matter who I get pregnant as long as I have a child."

But we're talking about how he used his FAITH in regard to Sarah and her condition.

Seems pretty clear that his faith wavered at that point.
He agreed to sleep with a slave girl. When Hagar became pregnant, Sarai got jealous and said to Abram "it's your fault I'm suffering. I gave you Hagar, she got pregnant and now she despises me. May the Lord judge between you and me.", Genesis 16:5. And he replied "she's your slave girl; do whatever you think is best." Hagar ran away because Sarai mistreated her - Abram had washed his hands of this. She was only encouraged to return to Sarai after an angel of the Lord gave her a promise of her own.
Abram was 86 when Ishmael was born - he had to wait another 14 years for Isaac.

As I recall, the reason I mentioned Abraham was to show that sometimes God made promises to people and they believed, but they did not immediately receive what had been promised.

So I see what you're trying to say. You're trying to say if God gave you something it's just going to fall on you like ripe cherries off of a tree. You don't have to believe or do anything.

If God says he is going to give something he gives it.
We need to believe and accept it, but he does not say "there are conditions to you receiving this blessing/salvation/healing; you have to DO this first". God blesses because he chooses to bless. Of course we don't have to earn it - we deserve nothing from God and cannot do anything to earn, or deserve, his blessings.

That's not the way we see in scripture.

Isn't it?
How many times did Jesus day to someone "I will heal/bless you but you have to do something first"? He healed some people without asking about their faith. He healed the man at the pool of Bethesda who believed a superstition about being the first in the pool after an angel had disturbed the waters a little. He raised Jairus' daughter and Lazarus, who were dead.
He calmed the storm on the lake, and rebuked their disciples for their lack of faith.
He feed a crowd of more than 5,000, who had not even asked for food, never mind done anything to earn it.
He died for sinners, who did not believe or do anything (except sin). And he gives eternal life to all who receive it, Romans 6:23.

Even with Israel God had given them the promised land but they had to go into the land and possess it through their faith and actions of belief.

If God gives a gift, we need to receive it - yes; same in Romans 6:23.
But that is not the same as saying that he will only heal us if we believe; as though faith is a condition for the healing.
Otherwise, those who showed faith, by praying and asking their Father for healing, would always receive it, while people with no faith would remain unhealed. Yet there are non Christians who have been healed, and some lovely, sincere Christians who remain ill/paralysed/have died.
You even said yourself that a Minister who was close to God and praying for someone's healing was told, "no".

 

[Bobber]

But it didn't!
Genesis 16:1-2; Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children, she had a slave girl named Hagar and said to Abram "go and sleep with Hagar, perhaps I can build a family through her."
Genesis 16:3 "Abram agreed to what Sarai said."
He did NOT say, "the Lord has promised me that I will have many descendants and an heir who is my own flesh and blood", Genesis 15:4-5.

Sorry but you're still missing the point. I've already acknowledged Abram, still called that in Gen 16....God changed his name to Abraham in chapter 17. But you asked why then didn't Abram do all the believing things I mentioned in Gen 16? (and I'm talking about relative to Sarah giving birth) That's not the point. The point is he did as time went along and I think that was probably at the point of Gen 17. Read 17 fully, in Gen 17:3 God changed his name......in verse 10 he was told to circumcise all the males to be a covenant people.

In Gen 17 God told him to no longer call Sarai by that name but by a new name......Sarah and that it would be through her the seed would come. In verse 17 Abraham laughed at that expressing doubt about it but God set him straight and Abraham received the correction. We see that he did and got his believing in line....and how do we know......because he did change his name and called Sarai, Sarah instead and Paul the Apostle states he Abraham did what God did. He began to call those thing that be not as thought the were just like God did. It's all found in Rom 4: 17, 21.

I'll put the passage at the bottom of this post but here's the summary......Abraham began at this point stated doing what God did....he called those things which be not as though they were....in verse 18 it can't be any more clear.....his believing caused a certain effect....that he might become the father of many naitons...."that he might become" has to mean that the things it said he did before if he didn't do them nothing would have changed. In verse 19 it talks about how Abraham chose to view his and Sarah's physical condition and chose to embrace a way of thinking about it beyond the natural, and he was commended by God for so doing this.

He was taking God at his word and talking and acting accordingly. He didn't stagger at the promise of God through unbelief verse 20 states which can't mean anything less than if he did the miracle wouldn't have happend. The Bibles says he gave glory to God which means giving continual thanksgiving to God that he was what God said he was REGARDLESS of what his physicla body told him. I don't know how more clearer it can be than that. Read through the passage below,

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 2

 

[Bobber]

Seems pretty clear that his faith wavered at that point.

And you're talking about what happened in Gen 16. I can agree with that. But you're wanting to assert his faith was wavering forever. I've pointed out in Gen 17 we see a reset and we can see how he acted in faith in stayed in faith from Gen 17 and onwards.

As I recall, the reason I mentioned Abraham was to show that sometimes God made promises to people and they believed, but they did not immediately receive what had been promised.

Abraham wouldn't have received anything if he didn't get into FAITH and stay there. Again the language of Rom 4 states what Abraham did by walking in faith caused him to become the Father of many nations.

 

[Bobber]

If God says he is going to give something he gives it.
We need to believe and accept it, but he does not say "there are conditions to you receiving this blessing/salvation/healing; you have to DO this first".

But you started by saying first we need to believe. Believe is a verb. Believe means what one does through their words and actions and the actions of faith is to stand fast with thanksgiving and praise in regard to what God say he will do.

God blesses because he chooses to bless. Of course we don't have to earn it - we deserve nothing from God and cannot do anything to earn, or deserve, his blessings.

So who does it say God rewards? Those who do what?

But that is not the same as saying that he will only heal us if we believe; as though faith is a condition for the healing.

But you even said in the top quote in this post you said yes we need to believe and accept. Again you said we NEED to do this.