Why we should believe God created all of Nature, and what that means...

Halbhh

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To fully believe in God is so much more than just believing God is behind a few things...

God is the creator of all things John chapter 1 tells us -- and that means (as the words say) everything


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.



So, God created everything of nature...

That means not only the things in nature, but also nature itself, the design of nature -- how nature works -- all aspects of nature!

Anything in it. So, photosynthesis, but more...

Electrical fields/currents... Gravity. Magnetism.

Chemistry.

Every aspect -- all of physics and chemistry.

Therefore all things that happen naturally through the design of nature -- everything that happens in and of physics, chemistry -- is simply Nature doing what God made it to do.

So that all of creation then unfolds and works, like a flower unfolding from a seed, by His design.

Many think (I'm not alone in this) that also at times God intervened during the special preparation of Earth in particular. (for example, He might have chosen to let certain asteroids and comets hit Earth, but not others, deflecting the ones He didn't want to be part of Earth...)

So, then you have both nature operating as God made it to do, and also additionally He intervened at times to make Earth a perfect home for us.

That all is 'creation' and it's also all natural events, including all natural events -- there's no difference! Geology, you name it -- it's all merely part of creation, just like chemistry or gravity, etc.

The entire debates about science vs creationism comes from a mistaken premise: the false premise that if nature works wonderfully for life -- when we see that nature can cause and support living things -- that somehow that is wrongly thought to mean that God didn't do that....

It's an irrational premise really.

Anyone should consider the opposite idea, which makes a lot more sense: God existing would certainly make nature work perfectly to support/give rise to life....

Like we read in Genesis 1:11

11 Then God said, “Let the earth produce vegetation..."


That means anyone trying to argue any natural thing (even any evidence of evolution) would somehow disprove God is not believing in God, or perhaps not fully assuming that God is God.... The Creator of all of Nature.

To argue that any evolution would disprove God is very much like trying to argue that the Earth being an oblate sphere proves God doesn't exist (since certain verses read in isolation can be suggested to be read to suggest the Earth is flat, if you come to the text with that idea ahead of time.... but if we read the bible through (instead of only isolated verses) -- full reading -- with more a listening attitude, then we don't miss the meaning in full context.)

-------

We read in the bible that God uses visions to communicate, more than any other way.

3 The boy Samuel ministered before the Lord under Eli. In those days the word of the Lord was rare; there were not many visions. -- 1 Sam 3:1

Of course, as you know from reading it, the Bible has very many visions in it, not just given only to prophets like Isaiah or Ezekiel, but to very many.

6 he said, “Listen to my words:

When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord,
reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams."


Numbers 12 NIV


As we know, of course, the person who received the revelation from God written down in Genesis chapter 1 was not actually there in person -- the writer was not there in the beginning (Christ was, but not any mortal human!).

So, Genesis chapter 1 is of course revealed to us through a mortal human being who was given a revelation from God...

Genesis chapter 1 has both visually seen parts and also literally spoken words from God, both.

See it --

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

The person receiving this then would see some of it, (as in a vision) -- visually see some key things that happened -- and also hear some spoken words from God, which are in quotation marks for us.

Both.

3 And God said, Let there be light,and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - New International Version


So, as you see, we are reading the actual spoken Words from God here -- literally spoken words!!! (They are in quotation marks.)

Let's read some more visions to notice that happening.


Peter’s Vision
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. ...

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10 - New International Version


We also read in the Bible over and over someone receiving a vision, but not at first fully understanding it (or not in all ways) (or even sometimes not at all) for a time!


----
8 During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.

9 I asked, “What are these, my lord?”

The angel who was talking with me answered, “I will show you what they are.”

Bible Gateway passage: Zechariah 1 - New International Version



----

So, we can expect it's likely that person given the amazing creation vision in Genesis 1 would not naturally be able to understand every aspect of what he was seeing immediately, but would be given to understand the most important things (or soon): that God created all that is, and made Earth a "good" and a "very good" home for us!....

Let's think about how the person first seeing this vision would not entirely understand every aspect of creation, just like Peter didn't at first understand above....

How could anyone thousands of years ago understand seeing Earth as being entirely a water world for example!?

How could anyone understand seeing an ocean that it meant that all the Earth was for a time just oceans....

How would they be able to know that seeing an ocean vision was about the entire Earth?

They could know -- we can know -- only when God helps us to understand.

Thus in the vision, we are given spoken words to explain this...the passage of time is shown with 'days' with a morning and evening.

That's
familiar: morning time and evening time: I can understand this vision now -- it's here on Earth, and this is a day!....

In this way, the person receiving this amazing vision that would have been beyond their comprehension could begin to understand it was Earth he was seeing, being made.

And time is passing. In fact, we read that the reason we live under a wonderful starry sky instead of for instance a blank grey dome overhead is to help us notice the passage of time (in our mortal bodies: that we haven't forever in these bodies, and we should realize time is fleeting here...):

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years..."

Time is passing, Earth is changing, then, the vision conveys to the wondering person seeing these amazing sights...

Of course, God can do all things, and doesn't have to work slowly, but could make Earth in 1 day, or 1 hour.....

But that would be less beneficial to us. It's better if we can notice that God is blessing us with work over time to make Earth a wonderful blessed home (initially) for us....

So, in this vision, creation is shown in a way we can understand.

It's understandable to us mortal humans. According to what people can understand.

For example, when Christ told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the words Christ chose for that audience listening at that moment in time (all descendents of Abraham) is that literally-rendered Lazarus goes to be in the "bosom of Abraham" (in the most word for word literal translation):

"And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham—and the rich man also died, and was buried;"
Luke 16:22

Of course, heaven isn't mainly just to be at Abraham's side, nor is Abraham the central gathering person around which heaven will be... But Christ spoke in a way his listeners could understand at that moment in time.

So God also spoke words in Genesis 1 to make it clear to us that Earth was being formed/changed over time.

And the main thing we get repeated 7 times: that our home was made to be "good" for us. "Very good"....

The spoken words are enough to help make it clear -- God made our home Earth -- everything. And made it wonderful, a truly wonderful place to be.

----------

Here it's good to be sure to be clear -- visions aren't like a mere video recording or mere photograph. (it would be a disrespectful cartoon version of God to claim so!)

Of course God didn't need to set up a recorder/camera and record creation scenes so He would be able to later replay the recording for the person given this revelation in Genesis 1....

Instead, all visions are actually given from God -- He creates the vision for us.

The vision itself is created.

Made in a way so that we can (eventually) understand what we never could otherwise understand.

An actual video recording would have been even harder to comprehend we can guess....too distracting with too many details that aren't the main point.

A vision is always a kind of stylized representation of something important. A created scene.

As a parallel analogy, visions are more like (analogy) something drawn by hand or such -- in analogy, more like an drawing or animation drawing than like a video recording or photo from a camera, in the sense they are entirely created and won't have too many endless details that are beside the point being communicated.

They are stylized representations you could say. They are like something, instead of being a photo recording of something.

The Genesis 1 revelation is such a wonderful vision of course, and reading it can lift us up out of our base mind into a higher state of mind, ready to hear God's words to come in the scripture....

We should always take a time to sometimes read to just listen to the chapter, without thinking about any debate or doctrinal thing we heard, etc.

---------

That's the main best thing we must gain from Genesis 1 -- just pure listening to hear and be lifted up, ready to continue reading the word....

I hope if anyone ever listens to anything about Genesis 1, they will take from this that we should occasionally read even this chapter we've read 10 or 20 times already with just pure reading to just listen (to lay aside all previous and other stuff, even our own ideas or doctrines, and just purely listen to God's word). It's so wonderful!
 
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BobRyan

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To fully believe in God is so much more than just believing God is behind a few things...

God is the creator of all things John chapter 1 tells us -- and that means (as the words say) everything


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

IT also means He created all of this world and life on it - in the exact time frame that HE stated.

Reading Gen 1-2 I think we both agree that we do NOT find "in some timeframe unknown to mankind - God created all life on Earth"

Rather we find

Gen 2:2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20:
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
..
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Instead of something like "scripture gives no timeframe for the creation of life on Earth - all we know is that in some timeframe he did it... possibly via evolution" -- we have the above scriptures explicitly stating details that some wish were not even in scripture but yet -- there they are.
 
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BobRyan

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God did not say "the ground somehow popped out humans, or frogs, or rabbits" -- we see God saying "Let there be"... and "God formed".

Gen 2.
19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see

And of course we find in Gen 1 that it is in one single "evening and morning" that God formed all land animals... out of the ground as Gen 2 reminds us.

===================

IF we delete enough details from the text of scripture we can eventually eisegete the doctrines on origins that we find in evolutionism -- into the text.
 
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Halbhh

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IT also means He created all of this world and life on it - in the exact time frame that HE stated.
That's right (as I said further along in the post).

To be precise also: God created in 6 days, we read in Genesis 1

Please revise, so that you don't end up making it seem the OP said differently than it did! Please edit so that you don't make it seem as if I wrote a different thing than I wrote above! (and that's also best for not just me, but you also, because otherwise I'll have to explain to people in the thread over and over that Bob didn't represent my post as it is written, since I clearly spoke specifically about time above and never in a way to would suggest as your post does as if the OP post was saying it was not 6 days. I'd rather not have to do that repeated explaining that you misread my post!)

Your going to have to read through my post fully I think, so to be able to respond to it as it actually is, instead of some other thing unlike it.
 
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BobRyan

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That's right (as I said further along in the post).

To be precise also: God created in 6 days, we read in Genesis 1

Please revise, so that you don't end up making it seem the OP said differently than it did!
It now reads

Reading Gen 1-2 I think we both agree that we do NOT find "in some timeframe unknown to mankind - God created all life on Earth"
 
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BobRyan

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- visions aren't like a mere video recording or mere photograph. (it would be a disrespectful cartoon version of God to claim so!)

Of course God didn't need to set up a recorder/camera and record creation scenes so He would be able to later replay the recording for the person given this revelation in Genesis 1....

Instead, all visions are actually given from God --
God is able to accurately show exactly what happened at a given historic event. HE is an expert communicator.

SOME visions rely on symbols to convey a point -- but others simply show a real life event accurately.

Your emphasis that the way to show a real life event is not limited to video cameras when it comes to God - is a given as well.
 
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Halbhh

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It now reads

Reading Gen 1-2 I think we both agree that we do NOT find "in some timeframe unknown to mankind - God created all life on Earth"
Ok. It's very very very much helpful and best for people that they read fully all of Exodus chapters 19 and 20, and really listen. If they do, they will be profoundly moved and amazed I think. If they really listen. It's so unlike anything that most people might expect or imagine. God is real.
 
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Halbhh

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SOME visions rely on symbols to convey a point -- but others simply show a real life event accurately.
That's a very interesting statement. I cannot think of a vision in the Bible where the vision is indicated to be photographical (that is-- a high resolution photograph style picture, like you'd take with a man made camera).

Now, the amazing vision I myself received was very realistic looking....but it still was not at all like a photograph.

It did not have background things showing up in the visual scene I saw.

I think that's because (as I explained in the OP) that including lots of random background things (like trees, birds, stones, etc.) in a vision would be a distraction.

God gives visions with a purpose, not merely to show a camera like recording. That's why visions do not look like photos or video recordings.

A vision focuses on something that is being communicated.

I cannot think of any vision in the bible where it's indicated the vision is more like a video recording and less like a special scene God has provided.
 
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BobRyan

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Thus in the vision, we are given spoken words to explain this...the passage of time is shown with 'days' with a morning and evening.

That's
familiar: morning time and evening time: I can understand this vision now -- it's here on Earth, and this is a day!....
And it is certain that Moses' readers knew what a single morning and evening were "one day" as Gen 1 points out.
Of course, God can do all things, and doesn't have to work slowly, but could make Earth in 1 day, or 1 hour.....
And since He claims to have done it in the same 7 day time frame as those at Sinai in Ex 20:8-11 nothing stops us from accepting His point -- after all He could have chosen seven second instead - but He chose seven days exactly as the days at Sinai according to Ex 20:8-11.

So God also spoke words in Genesis 1 to make it clear to us that Earth was being formed/changed over time.

And the main thing we get repeated 7 times: that our home was made to be "good" for us. "Very good"....
And tells us exactly how long that time was and tells us that in each case it is "And God said" forming animals directly from the ground.

And the each of the 7 days are "one evening and morning"
And that it is equated to our own "evening and morning" in the legal code of Ex 20:8-11
 
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Halbhh

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And it is certain that Moses' readers knew what a single morning and evening were "one day" as Gen 1 points out.

And since He claims to have done it in the same 7 day time frame as those at Sinai in Ex 20:8-11 nothing stops us from accepting His point -- after all He could have chosen seven second instead - but He chose seven days exactly as the days at Sinai according to Ex 20:8-11.


And tells us exactly how long that time was and tells us that in each case it is "And God said" forming animals directly from the ground.

And the each of the 7 days are "one evening and morning"
And that it is equated to our own "evening and morning" in the legal code of Ex 20:8-11
I've written to you (I think you'll recall I quoted a few of those to you) that I myself think the days seen in Genesis 1 are 'human style days', 'real days', 'actual days', '24 hour days'.... So, I hope you remember. That of course fits perfectly with a vision -- visions are often about real events, and Genesis 1 is entirely about real events and their meaning.

Look, I'm not trying to run you around in circles, even though I only said about 3 times in the previous discussion thread on this my precise time-length view, that the ----(edit: removed to avoid useless side debate that goes away from the real meaning of the OP)

I want people to think about the real meaning of Genesis 1 and John 1:1-2, and not merely some time arguments some do. God made all of nature, and that is profound in meaning. Do you see the implication? The OP is about that implication.
 
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Halbhh

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And tells us exactly how long that time was and tells us that in each case it is "And God said" forming animals directly from the ground.
I think you'll agree it's good to directly quote. Let's do that --

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good."

(Genesis 1. As a vision the words in red are the spoken words from God, and the text in black is the description about this phase of creation put in simplified human terms)

Consider then -- God made the land, He made the chemistry, He made the air, He made the elements, He made the sun, He made light itself, He made photosynthesis to work for plants to grow for animals to eat, and on and on.... He made literally everything. Meaning then all of physics and chemistry included, so that literally all of nature's operation is His design that He chose and He made.

But consider that! -->

  • "His design" -- His, not ours -- it's not our own idea in any way, we only discover it slowly over centuries of discovery (the 'sciences' ideally are about discovering how nature operates)

  • "He chose" -- God chose nature's design.
One thing that could help some that heard false claims that science contradicts God is to realize that scientists don't choose which theories are correct -- they try out many theories over years of time to gradually try to learn which theories better fit reality. So, we only slowly understand more and more about God's design, with many wrong ideas, but slowly some correct ones, slowly over years and centuries of time.

  • He made -- all of nature is literally His creation which He did.
 
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Diamond7

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3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
I have a problem with the word: "things". In the Greek and Hebrew the word is simply: "ALL". Nothing is a reversal of the world all. So you have all or none.
 
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Halbhh

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I have a problem with the word: "things". In the Greek and Hebrew the word is simply: "ALL". Nothing is a reversal of the world all. So you have all or none.
That is useful to point out I think. While I feel that the intent of the translators was that 'all things' should be read to be 'anything that exists on any level of any kind', it is possible that it could be read instead to be a much more restricted meaning -- 'objects that have mass', but someone not familiar with basic science concepts might say the word as just 'objects' -- and that would not be the intended meaning 'everything that exists'. "All, the whole, every kind of; apparently a primary word; all, any, every..."

I did look out of curiosity on how a variety of translations where handling it:

New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Berean Literal Bible
All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

King James Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

New King James Version
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

NASB 1995
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Legacy Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Amplified Bible
All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.

Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

American Standard Version
All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Everything was in his hand, and without him not even one thing existed of the things that existed.

Contemporary English Version
And with this Word, God created all things. Nothing was made without the Word. Everything that was created

Douay-Rheims Bible
All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

English Revised Version
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

International Standard Version
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

Literal Standard Version
all things happened through Him, and without Him not even one thing happened that has happened.

Majority Standard Bible
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.


New Revised Standard Version
All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being

Weymouth New Testament
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.

World English Bible
All things were made through him. Without him, nothing was made that has been made.

Young's Literal Translation
all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

----
"all things"
πάντα (panta)
Adjective - Nominative Neuter Plural
Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.


----
So, it seems english translators of most translations are relying on readers to think of 'all things' as being 'everything of any kind' (thus including things like gravity, etc.).
 
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Diamond7

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'anything that exists on any level of any kind',
Quantum physics tells us that everything is connected. We can instantly be anywhere in the universe.

The phenomenon of quantum entanglement is one of the key features of quantum physics that points toward interconnectedness. When two particles become entangled, their properties become correlated in such a way that the state of one particle instantaneously influences the state of the other, regardless of the distance between them. This has been experimentally verified through various tests and observations.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
 
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If you think about it, nature runs kind of like a computer.

Think about planting an oak tree seed. Is there an oak tree inside that seed? No. Back in Genesis when God was creating the earth first he made land and after that he made all the plants, right? Wong!! He said let the earth bring forth green plants. So the oak tree is in the ground and not the seed. A seed is like a computer chip. And whereever you plant it in the ground, it will activate the ground to bring forth an oak tree right there. Everything needed was already n the ground to bring forth oak trees, and everything else.

So you see, you plug in a computer chip and it has the particular code that is needed for the ground computer to, bring forth plant life and vegetation.


Genesis 1:
9 Then God said, “Let the waters beneath the sky flow together into one place, so dry ground may appear.” And that is what happened. 10 God called the dry ground “land” and the waters “seas.” And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout with vegetation—every sort of seed-bearing plant, and trees that grow seed-bearing fruit. These seeds will then produce the kinds of plants and trees from which they came.” And that is what happened. 12 The land produced vegetation—all sorts of seed-bearing plants, and trees with seed-bearing fruit. Their seeds produced plants and trees of the same kind. And God saw that it was good..../NLT
 
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FireDragon76

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Ok. It's very very very much helpful and best for people that they read fully all of Exodus chapters 19 and 20, and really listen. If they do, they will be profoundly moved and amazed I think. If they really listen. It's so unlike anything that most people might expect or imagine. God is real.

Visions involve the imaginal and symbolic, not some kind of scientific reality.
 
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BobRyan

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I've written to you (I think you'll recall I quoted a few of those to you) that I myself think the days seen in Genesis 1 are 'human style days', 'real days', 'actual days', '24 hour days'.... So, I hope you remember. That of course fits perfectly with a vision -- visions are often about real events, and Genesis 1 is entirely about real events and their meaning.
[/QUOTE]

Then how do you propose that there can be a marriage between Gen 1-2 and the doctrine on origins found in evolutionism? Do you know of any text on evolution that begins with "For in six days the Lord created the heavens and the earth" or that uses statements like "And God said let the Earth bring forth land animals.. and evening and morning were the sixth day"??

I don't know of one.
Look, I'm not trying to run you around in circles, even though I only said about 3 times in the previous discussion thread on this my precise time-length view, that the ----(edit: removed to avoid useless side debate that goes away from the real meaning of the OP)
I thought you had said that God says one thing about a literal 7 day creation week - but evolution is the reality of how life evolved from a simple celled organism to higher species.
I want people to think about the real meaning of Genesis 1 and John 1:1-2,
Me too.
and not merely some time arguments some do. God made all of nature, and that is profound in meaning. Do you see the implication? The OP is about that implication.
If we step back from the details in the text - to a sufficient distance we can get to the "God did something and somehow that resulted in all life on Earth coming into being over a period of time unknown... even if specified in the text".

Then from there we get to "God is creator even if not in the direct manner He specified in Gen 1 and 2" - and can look at how helpful such a concept can be.
 
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BobRyan

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Visions involve the imaginal and symbolic, not some kind of scientific reality.
Not true.

God is fully able to accurately communicate real life events in a vision.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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How could you possibly know that? You can not.

And there's no solid way to "know" that God, in fact, DID create everything. We can surmise as much. We can even make dogmatic affirmations that we believe He did, but our saying these affirmations doesn't reflect that we are in an epistemologically justified position of mind in relation to His "acts" of creation.

We need to just deal with reality as it is and stop pretending that we know when we really don't.

The upshot of all of this is: atheists should also stop pretending that they're fully justified in "knowing" God didn't create anything ... ...
 
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