I am your healer

[Strong in Him]

No I'm not a Calvinist. I totally agree with you. Not sure why you thought maybe I was.

I never even considered that you might be.
The statement was that God wants all to be healed, and I replied that if GOD wanted this then GOD would carry out his own will and heal every sick person.
You commented that God wants everyone to be saved, yet not everyone will be. My answer to which was "no, because people can choose whether or not to respond to the Gospel." God chose to give Adam, and us, the ability and right to choose - he doesn't force anything on anyone.
Healing, though, is not a matter of our choice; if it were, non Christians would flock to Jesus and all Christians would be healed.

 

[Bobber]

Abraham believed God's promise; so much so that God declared him to be righteous. But he did not "believe God answered speedily"; in fact he tried to hurry things along by going off and sleeping with Hagar. That resulted in him having a son - but Ismael was not the child of God's promise; Isaac was.

First I think Abraham was a work in progress when it came to FAITH. (as we all are)
I think though Abraham when it came to the FAITH of bringing forth Issac didn't take place unto the angels and the Lord appeared to him and Sarah .

Romans 4 says this,

"....the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." Rom 4: 17,21

So we know this was beyond the time of what happened with Hagar....later his focus of his faith became now on Sarah would bring forth the promised child. First God told him he HAD not will be but he HAD made him the Father of many nations. That's similar to how God has healed us as far as what Jesus did on the cross. But there had to come a bringing forth from the Spirit into the flesh when it came to the manifestation to come forth. What did Abraham do? He agreed with God. He agreed he was the Father of many nations just like we must do and agree by Jesus stripes we are healed.

Not only about healing but about EVERYTHING the bible says we are in Christ Jesus! The natural mind says we are not those things but we agree with God and do what Abraham did.....what did he do? Abraham like God called those things which be not as thought they were......his natural mind screamed at him that Sarah's womb was dead and his physical body couldn't produce. But he didn't look to the natural but looked at the declaration of God. He did not let the natural realities cause him to stagger. Didn't matter what the natural had to say.

If he agreed with God and stayed with it the natural would change regardless of how subtantial it would seem.....again he didn't let the natural stagger him. A great many in regard to FAITH now days do. They're not going to take God's word. They're going to take the natural realm. In a sense because they do that that's a god to them or who has greater authority .....God's word and only God's word? Or the natural. So....there was a period of time from accepting God's word (that Sarah would bear a son) to the time when it became manifested.

That's the same as Mk 11:24. So what was Abraham to do....he didn't stagger BUT he offered up thankgiving to God by saying he was the Father of many nations and he gave glory to God verse 20. By his actions he brought forth the power of God who did the miracle then on Abraham and Sarah's flesh in order to give birth to a son.

 

[Bobber]

So you believe that sometimes God's answer to our prayer is "wait"?
Good.

Let me put it this way. I believe I receive when I pray. But don't I believe we must wait? Yes but here's how it works.

Analogy: Think of an instant camera that you recall of years ago. You push the button on the camera to take the picture. From that very moment you've received it. If anyone wants to say but you' don't have it we can say YES I received it when I prayed and that's when I snapped the picture. The camera slides out the picture from the camera....you look at it. It's a white blank.

One says, "That's not a picture of the person you took!" Yes it is. I've got it. I have it now! What you have to get and understand....... it's developing...it developing! After a period of time the white blank goes away and one now....sees the picture. So was there a waiting time? Yes and no depending on what one means. You got the picture from the point you snapped the button or you got what you wanted from the moment you prayed.....but you don't actually see until it develops.

This is what Abraham did. He believed he was the Father of many nations that was first.....then then continually gave thanksgiving to God and didn't let what the natural realm tried to tell him be the deciding factor of what he believed. He considered God's capacities were above the natural and did not make the natural his god. OK God he said.

I AM the Father of many nations and I thank you for it! And it will come through Sarah's seed and I thank you for it. By his FAITH he caused it to develop. None of this was by Abraham's power of course it was all God's power which did it....but God the one with all power watches our words and actions.

 

[Strong in Him]

First I think Abraham was a work in progress when it came to FAITH. (as we all are)

I'm sure he was.
But Genesis still says, "Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness", Genesis 15:6.

I think though Abraham when it came to the FAITH of bringing forth Issac didn't take place unto the angels and the Lord appeared to him and Sarah .

Abraham is one of those who received a promise but did not see it immediately fulfilled.
God first made his promise to Abraham in Genesis 13:15 - "I will give the land to you and your offspring". In chapter 15 God told Abraham that he would receive a great reward. Abraham said, "what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezar." The Lord then promised him that his own flesh and blood would inherit. That's when we read that Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness" - a verse that is repeated at least twice in the NT. In Chapter 17, the Lord gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision, which was to be for him and his descendants. Then in chapter 18 3 visitors told Abraham he would have a children within the year.
I understand there were about 10 years between the first promise and its fulfilment.

So we know this was beyond the time of what happened with Hagar.

Though he had received the promise before.

That's similar to how God has healed us as far as what Jesus did on the cross.

Jesus died for sinners, to reconcile us to God.
Not so that we could have good physical health.

 

[Strong in Him]

Let me put it this way. I believe I receive when I pray. But don't I believe we must wait? Yes but here's how it works.

Analogy: Think of an instant camera that you recall of years ago. You push the button on the camera to take the picture. From that very moment you've received it. If anyone wants to say but you' don't have it we can say YES I received it when I prayed and that's when I snapped the picture.

You can say that if you like - but that is not something we ever see in Scripture.
Neither Jesus, nor the disciples, ever said "you have been healed; you have to wait for that healing to manifest itself." Or, "you have been healed of leprosy, you have received it; it only seems to you that your arm has dropped off because the healing has not yet developed/been made manifest."

So was there a waiting time? Yes and no depending on what one means. You got the picture from the point you snapped the button or you got what you wanted from the moment you prayed.....but you don't actually see until it develops.

Sorry, but that sounds to me like you don't accept that God can say "wait" as an answer to prayer, so you find another way of explaining the delay in healing.

This is what Abraham did. He believed he was the Father of many nations that was first.....then then continually gave thanksgiving to God and didn't let what the natural realm tried to tell him be the deciding factor of what he believed.

He believed God - there is no record of him giving thanks for it over the years.
When Sarah told him to go and sleep with her slave girl so that the child would be hers, Abraham didn't say "but God has promised to give us a child and I am thanking him for that promise." He didn't tell Sarah to be patient, trust God and thank him.
He went off and slept with Hagar. When Sarah was jealous of Hagar's pregnancy, she complained to Abraham, who said "she's your slave; do what you like." He later laughed when God repeated his promise, said that Sarah was too old to have a child and asked that God would bless Ishmael. God told him it would be his OWN child which would inherit his promise.

...but God the one with all power watches our words and actions.

God made that promise to Abraham without "looking at Abraham's words and actions" or imposing any conditions on him.

 

[Bobber]

You can say that if you like - but that is not something we ever see in Scripture.
Neither Jesus, nor the disciples, ever said "you have been healed; you have to wait for that healing to manifest itself.

You're insisting and demanding that certain words be said the way you want them to be said. But Jesus did say what he said, "What things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them" Mk 11:24
Believing that you receive them happens at one point in time......and YOU SHALL have them is a future tense consideration. James 1 talking about asking in FAITH bears this out.

Sorry, but that sounds to me like you don't accept that God can say "wait" as an answer to prayer, so you find another way of explaining the delay in healing.

Ridiculous! I've clearly told you there may be a space of time before one sees a manifestation. But one must stay in FAITH.

He believed God - there is no record of him giving thanks for it over the years.
When Sarah told him to go and sleep with her slave girl so that the child would be hers, Abraham didn't say "but God has promised to give us a child and I am thanking him for that promise." He didn't tell Sarah to be patient, trust God and thank him.He went off and slept with Hagar. When Sarah was jealous of Hagar's pregnancy, she complained to Abraham, who said "she's your slave; do what you like." He later laughed when God repeated his promise, said that Sarah was too old to have a child and asked that God would bless Ishmael. God told him it would be his OWN child which would inherit his promise.

What are you bringing all that us for. I already addressed the Abraham, Hagar issue when I said the following,

So we know this was beyond the time of what happened with Hagar....later his focus of his faith became now on Sarah would bring forth the promised child. First God told him he HAD not will be but he HAD made him the Father of many nations. That's similar to how God has healed us as far as what Jesus did on the cross. But there had to come a bringing forth from the Spirit into the flesh when it came to the manifestation to come forth. What did Abraham do? He agreed with God. He agreed he was the Father of many nations just like we must do and agree by Jesus stripes we are healed.

God made that promise to Abraham without "looking at Abraham's words and actions" or imposing any conditions on him.

Well you're just wrong he did require things of faith from him.

18Who against hope (Abraham) believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Sorry but you can't get around this! There was no hope in the natural for this to occur but Abraham chose to walk by faith and chose to believe beyond the natural so that what??? The he might become, that he might become the father of many nations. When it says that he might become that obviously has to mean if he didn't do the prior he would NOT have become the father of many nations. One cannot even suggest it's any other way.

 

[Bobber]

Jesus died for sinners, to reconcile us to God.

Yes he did that for sure.

Not so that we could have good physical health.

You're being totally one dimensional in your thinking. God is beyond that. If Jesus only thing in providing redemption was to reconcile sinners to God (and thank God he did that) you would have no promise of God for peace, for help in any other way then you've described. The Bible declares though we've been given exceeding great and precious promises not just one thing. Scriptural language is we've been redeemed from the curse of the law Gal 3:13 ......now look at Duet 28 and see what all that entails. It includes healing plus a great many other things.

 

[Guojing]

Yes he did that for sure.

You're being totally one dimensional in your thinking. God is beyond that. If Jesus only thing in providing redemption was to reconcile sinners to God (and thank God he did that) you would have no promise of God for peace, for help in any other way then you've described. The Bible declares though we've been given exceeding great and precious promises not just one thing. Scriptural language is we've been redeemed from the curse of the law Gal 3:13 ......now look at Duet 28 and see what all that entails. It includes healing plus a great many other things.

Deut 28 is a promise to the nation of Israel.

Why do you consider yourself as part of that nation?

 

[Bobber]

Deut 28 is a promise to the nation of Israel.

Why do you consider yourself as part of that nation?

Outside of claiming land boundaries that were promised to Israel yes I consider the blessings of soundness of mind and healing are tor those in Christ. How could one ever think otherwise?

 

[Guojing]

Outside of claiming land boundaries that were promised to Israel yes I consider the blessings of soundness of mind and healing are tor those in Christ. How could one ever think otherwise?

So any of the promises God make to anyone in the Bible, so long as you think it is okay for you to claim, you will do so?

But somehow, you know you must exclude Genesis 15:5 and Matthew 19:28 from those that you can claim?

 

[Aaron112]

I don't know of anyone, Christian or not, who chooses to be ill or in pain and remain so. There may well be people who hold on to their physical, or emotional, pain so that they can complain about it or be seen as victims to get sympathy - if there are, I don't know them.

I know or met many of them, in person and on forum or on internet - I'm bold when talking to people and get to the point, and many have stated they want the money from disability or insurance INSTEAD of being made whole or healed in any way - they want the money money money money money ....
others, even young like 3 y.o. to 18 y. o. like have glasses because they feel more accepted, more popular , INSTEAD of having better vision, 20/20, or if it is not their eyes, whatever weakness in health they have, they like the attention they get... it is apparently very common but some or many may not say so in so many words if they realize what they are admitting... some admit it freely, others get mad or just walk away just at the hint that they don't have to stay in the condition they are in.

 

[Aaron112]

Outside of claiming land boundaries that were promised to Israel yes I consider the blessings of soundness of mind and healing are tor those in Christ. How could one ever think otherwise?

For God has not given us a spirit of timidity/fear, but of power and love and strong mind.... (quick paraphrase)

 

[Aaron112]

So any of the promises God make to anyone in the Bible, so long as you think it is okay for you to claim, you will do so?

Not seeing who you posted this too, but there are whole churches even publicly like on tv or youtube that believe they can claim God's Promises, and they do claim God's Promises, (and even charge money for it from others)
.... they totally believe it is okay, and are told it is okay, by their leaders and comrades in deception/ false gospels

 

[Aaron112]

that if they remain sick it is somehow their fault.

Out of context, paradox? What if, as I've seen frequently, they say , they choose, to remain sick - is that their fault , or more the fault of whoever trained them or tricked them that way ? NOTE this is those who say openly/ they choose/ to remain sick.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I agree. God isn't obliged to grant anything extraordinary to anyone.

Not obliged, but neither is He obliged to save anyone. God does give spiritual gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy and so on. I once had a gift of faith in an emergency situation. I had nothing like it before or since. I've been healed miraculously and also naturally. John Wesley said that miracles were not common because there was so much doubt and unbelief. He included miraculous healing in his 5 principles. So there is nothing new about this.

 

[Strong in Him]

You're insisting and demanding that certain words be said the way you want them to be said. But Jesus did say what he said, "What things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them" Mk 11:24

Yes - and I'm afraid you are not reading my posts properly because I replied that Jesus said this to his disciples. He never, ever said it to a sick person.

Ridiculous! I've clearly told you there may be a space of time before one sees a manifestation. But one must stay in FAITH.

If there is a "space of time before one sees a manifestation", there has been a delay in granting the healing. Which contradicts what you said earlier about faith believing that God "answers speedily."
But this is your opinion, and is not what was taught by Jesus and the apostles.

What are you bringing all that us for. I already addressed the Abraham, Hagar issue when I said the following,

Again, you haven't read my post properly.
You said that Abraham believed he was the father of many nations, then continually gave thanks to God.
I said that he didn't seem to be believing - or giving thanks to God - when he agreed to sleep with Hagar to give Sarah a child. Abraham COULD have said to Sarah, "God has promised this, we just need to have faith and trust for a bit longer". He could have encouraged his wife to have faith, listen to God and keep believing and "continually giving thanks". He didn't. He agreed that he would go and sleep with another woman and, when Sarah was jealous at Hagar's pregnancy and wanted to send her away, he said "You do what you think best."

Well you're just wrong he did require things of faith from him.

No.
God said to Abram in Genesis 12:1-2 "leave your father's house and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation."
First time his promise was given - no conditions.
We hear nothing at all about Abraham before this. We don't know if he believed in God or if he had done any amazing things. All we know is GOD called and gave him a promise. That promise was repeated in Genesis 13:16 and Genesis 15:5. No conditions were imposed; no demand for faith and obedience.

Sorry but you can't get around this! There was no hope in the natural for this to occur

I never said there was, and I have no intention of "getting round it." It was a miracle that could not have happened naturally - I know.
Abraham believed God - I know.
But God spoke first. GOD made Abram a promise, that he would be the father of many; Abram believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. God did NOT say "because you have shown a certain level of faith, I will make you a promise", or "you have fulfilled this condition and believed, so I will make you a promise that you will have many children." God did not require Abram to do/believe anything in order to receive his promise.

 

[Guojing]

Not seeing who you posted this too, but there are whole churches even publicly like on tv or youtube that believe they can claim God's Promises, and they do claim God's Promises, (and even charge money for it from others)
.... they totally believe it is okay, and are told it is okay, by their leaders and comrades in deception/ false gospels

Their pastors wrongly apply the statement made by Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:20 to justify that.

 

[Strong in Him]

Out of context, paradox? What if, as I've seen frequently, they say , they choose, to remain sick - is that their fault , or more the fault of whoever trained them or tricked them that way ? NOTE this is those who say openly/ they choose/ to remain sick.

God knows a person's heart and whether or not they choose to remain sick. He can still heal.
The man at the pool of Bethesda had been there for 38 years (i.e since before Jesus was born) - waiting for "an angel to come and stir the waters" so he could be healed. When this angel did put in an appearance, the man had no one to help him in to the pool, so he missed out.
To me, that doesn't sound like someone who wanted to be well. (I would have crawled/rolled to the edge of the pool to be the first one in.)
Indeed, when Jesus said "do you want to be well?", the man didn't even answer the question. But Jesus healed him.

That incident is not, to me, an example of faith; nor did Jesus demand faith before he healed.

 

[Aaron112]

God did not require Abram to do/believe anything in order to receive his promise.

Admittedly God did perfectly know Abram's heart and mind through and through - his history, his birth , his childhood, his training, his thoughts, everything.

 

[Aaron112]

(I would have crawled/rolled to the edge of the pool to be the first one in.)

He would have too, if he could have. So not appropriate .... I think.