I am your healer

[Bobber]

If God gives a gift, we need to receive it -

Well hold on now. I brought something out that was very clear. And that was that when God gave Israel the promised land they had to go in an possess it which required they had to have their minds focused and disciplined so as not to let doubt,, and fear hold them back. You recall they had to rise up against their doubts and fears and walk by faith?

You recall that 10 spies came back and told them about the giants in the land and they saw themselves as grasshoppers. You recall it was by their actions and words cooperating with God that they would have gone into the land......but they didn't. They chose not to walk by faith. Now your doctrine or way of thinking is men don't really have to walk by faith.....it will just basically fall on them automatically. No they still have to walk by faith and generally speaking have to hold fast to what they believe until they see things manifested.

Otherwise, those who showed faith, by praying and asking their Father for healing, would always receive it, while people with no faith would remain unhealed. Yet there are non Christians who have been healed, and some lovely, sincere Christians who remain ill/paralysed/have died.

This is true and if I tell you why you might find yourself getting offended. But here's the basic reason for that. How much LIGHT has a person received. You expect more from a 5 years old then you do a 1 year old, and more from a 10 year old then someone 5. When one has received more light and teaching God says eventually one must apply the word of God more than someone who is genuinely are a spiritual baby.

You even said yourself that a Minister who was close to God and praying for someone's healing was told, "no".

That still doesn't mean it wasn't God's real will to see them raised up. But God understands to....and really at times it's not always easy to rise up and make a stand or to walk by faith for a thing. People do get tired and one could say for some depressed and they just want to go on to heaven. Look God understands that so at times he might say no let that person go on to heaven . God is compassionate to some things we'd like to have happen as well.

 

[Strong in Him]

I think the right position on this would be he said what things soever you desire, clearly means he was teaching Jesus disciples to teach the world about what he taught to get results in prayer.

He wasn't.
He said those words after he had ridden into Jerusalem, cursed a fig tree that he expected to bear fruit and cleansed the temple, driving out moneylenders who were exploiting the poor. Not when he was teaching his disciples to pray and telling them to teach others how to pray.

 

[Strong in Him]

And you're talking about what happened in Gen 16. I can agree with that. But you're wanting to assert his faith was wavering forever.

I never said that.

Abraham wouldn't have received anything if he didn't get into FAITH and stay there.

In Genesis 12 God said to Abram, "leave your father's country and go to a land which I will show you. " He blessed Abram and made him a promise - this was before Abram set out, in obedience. God's promise came first. He did not say, "if you go to the land which I will show you, get into faith and stay there, I will bless you".

It ALWAYS begins with God. He told Adam not to eat the fruit from a tree - but even before Adam had sinned, God had provided a Saviour, 1 Peter 1:19-20. God gave Rebekah a prophecy about Jacob before he was even born, and long before he showed any faith in God. God told Joseph about the exodus from Egypt, around 500 years before it happened - in fact, he even told Abraham about the exodus, Genesis 15:13-14. He did not say "if the Hebrews get into faith and stay there, I will rescue them from their slavery."
And Jesus died for us while we were still dead in our sins. He did not say "you have tried to live a good life, do the right thing and shown faith, so I'll die for you to reconcile you to God."

 

[Bobber]

He wasn't.
He said those words after he had ridden into Jerusalem, cursed a fig tree that he expected to bear fruit and cleansed the temple, driving out moneylenders who were exploiting the poor. Not when he was teaching his disciples to pray and telling them to teach others how to pray.

I don't know what you're talking about. He taught a certain aspect of prayer...."What things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them" It's prayer and how to get results period. Why are you trying to say it doesn't mean anything? It's prayer instructions.

 

[Strong in Him]

But you started by saying first we need to believe.

We need to accept the gift of God, Romans 6:23.
God gives eternal life through Jesus, those who believe become children of God, John 1:12; of course.

Believe means what one does through their words and actions and the actions of faith is to stand fast with thanksgiving and praise in regard to what God say he will do.

But God doesn't say "I will bless you because you have shown that you have faith in me." We are not asked to believe, "get into faith and stay there" and THEN find that God says "ok, I'll now give you eternal life, salvation, assurance and other blessings." Eternal life etc is not a reward for OUR faith - we are saved by faith, NOT works.

So who does it say God rewards? Those who do what?

If you want me to say "God rewards, and heals, those who have faith", it's not going to happen.
Again, I have read an account of a sincere Christian at a haling service who not only believed, but had many signs that, apparently, she was about to receive her healing. In that service was someone who was cursing and blaspheming God in his great pain. The author said she felt sorry for him because he could not hope to receive anything from God. He was healed; she wasn't.
In my own situation, I did not believe the woman who said that she wanted to heal me - never mind believe that it was God speaking through her. According to some on this forum - years ago - I would never receive anything from God because I did not have faith, (i.e. I didn't believe as they did.) But God healed me anyway. His power and ability to heal was not dependant on my faith.

But you even said in the top quote in this post you said yes we need to believe and accept. Again you said we NEED to do this.

We don't have salvation and eternal life unless we accept who Jesus is and the gift that God gives us; no.
People may receive healing from God without having faith or the correct level of faith. People may be blessed by God without having faith or done anything to earn it; of course. None of us can EARN anything from God.
That's what Grace is - giving people what they DON'T deserve.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't know what you're talking about. He taught a certain aspect of prayer...."What things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them" It's prayer and how to get results period. Why are you trying to say it doesn't mean anything? It's prayer instructions.

I'm talking about the context of the passage.
It was not the sermon on the Mount where Jesus was talking to his disciples who asked him how they should pray. Neither did he say "this is an important prayer principle; you must teach it to others."
And he never said those words to a sick person.