Old Earth Geology

[Job 33:6]

Also for @pat34lee

While looking at the figures and checking out your link, take a look at some of the erosive features in florida, the suwannee river and the st johns river, and the apalachicola river. Notice in the figure depicting A to A' that the rivers cut straight through all the surface geology. They are cutting down straight to sea level, then dispersing into the underlying aquifer (surficial aquifer). So the geology is eroded away, where there are erosive features (such as rivers) to erode it. But these rivers don't erode beyond sea level in depth, thats where they disperse into the groundwater table.

 

[Job 33:6]

And ya know, rivers meander, but they don't go out of their way to target certain types of rock.

The rivers of florida for example, they erode down to the water table and after that, they don't say "hey there's more limestone 50 miles east of here, let's go erode it". They just take the path of least resistance and generally stay where they are.

The rocks that makup most of Florida are below sea level. So they wouldn't be eroded by rivers because they're already under water. They wouldn't be eroded by wind (under water and rock) nor ice (Florida is too far south for recent glaciation). And limestone forms in the deep sea, made of sea shells, often predominantly. So this rock would be growing larger with deposition and the accumulation of calcium carbonate (during formation, ie Mesozoic and much of the cenozoic).

There just isn't a force present that would erode floida away.

 

[Job 33:6]

Then as we move into the quaternary and tertiary rocks, we actually do see heavy erosion, (check out the law of lateral continuity)indicating a somewhat recent exposure of Florida to erosive forces, which in this case, is likely wind and gravity.

But even beyond this, all of the depicted groups and formations have their own independent qualities that help us understand the history of Florida, and there are simply too many independent features for this land to have formed in only a few thousand years.

 

[Job 33:6]

Regarding the pyramids, the point is that, if an object is not subjected to erosional forces, it won't erode.

 

[Queller]

Why are there no whale fossils in mesozoic layers even though there are lots of fish there?

Because whales and other cetacean mammals (dolphins, porpoises, etc.) evolved much later on land and made their way back to the water. Therefore their fossils are much younger than those of fishes.

Why are there so many more marine fossils than land animal fossils?

Two reasons:

1. Throughout history there have been far more species of marine life than land or air dwelling life. Therefore there are simply more chances for marine life to be preserved than that of animals and birds.

2. A life form that dies under water has a better chance to be preserved as a fossil than one that dies exposed to the open air.

ETA: Sorry. I see you were responding to dad. His claims have no scientific basis and little scriptural support and he refuses to provide either. I keep him on ignore for that reason.

 

[Heissonear]

I figured I would make a thread on the geology of New York, to see what Young Earth Creationists might think.

The discussion begins with the diagram below.

Genesee Group (NYDg;4)
Sonyea Group (NYDs;5)
Angola and Rhinestreet Shales (NYDwf;4)
Machias Formation (NYDcy;4)

At the base, limestone. Limestone largely consisting of microscopic carbonaceous shells. Derived from deep sea shelled organisms. These are rocks formed at great depths.

Dark carbonaceous shales (identified in the figure as black shale facies) are rich in organics. Formed in anoxic environments without oxygen for decomposition. With higher amounts of organic material, shales take on a dark black color. With less oxygen, oxygen poor environments yield precipitation of sulfide minerals.

These dark shales form in an environment also of a deep sea, but with influence from nearby deposition of sediment.

Above the black shale facies are mudstone-sandstone facies. Shales again, but with higher oxygen content. Shallow waters allow for circulation of oxygen forming minerals like hematite (FeO2) and Magnetite (FeO3). The rocks take on a lighter hue. Sandstones, formed in shallow marine and terrestrial environments (much like the sandy beaches of today).

These are the rocks of shallow marine and a terrestrial beach like environment.

Above these rocks still, the Catskill Devonian red beds. Highly oxidated. Lithologies found in fining upward sequences with turbidites, sorted by density, with conglomerates (rocks formed in tumbling depositional environments).
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Collectively, we have 5 groups of rock, each group having the sequence of rocks above.

Beyond that further, atop the Devonian shale is glacial till (unsorted, not deposited by water), glacial moraines, drop stones, glacial striations, lakes in a north to south direction (carved by glaciers moving in a north to south direction)

These are traits of Pleistocene ice ages.

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Uniformitarianism has a simple explanation. The Acadian Orogeny.

As continental crust advances from the ocean in a western direction into what was then central america, mountain ranges are eroding, depositing sediment. Deltas form along the mountain range. Sea level rises, deeper waters give rise to anoxic carbonaceous shales. Sea level drops, the sea becomes aerated, more oxidized minerals form, rocks change color and chemistry.

Fast forward to the pleistocene epoch, ice comes down from the north, carves the great lakes and finger lakes, then deposits unsorted glacial till as it melts away.

And the fossils match. No dinosaurs in NY as the rocks are twice as old as the earliest dinosaurs. No mammals, no birds. Tetrapods are present (as predicted, tetrapods are of the devonian period). No bunny rabbits. Just devonian tetrapods and fish.
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How could such a complex geology ever be explained as something to have formed within 6000 years?

Leaning on natural explanations can be godless (God not envolved) and mentally acquired foundation of knowledge.

May I say I knew far more than you present as a godless Evolutionists and Naturalists (seeing how natural processes explains what we see in this world without the need for a God to explain or be needed).

Well, when there is God and you leave Him out your foundation is on sand.

In short, through His leading I found Evolution and Naturalism require great faith. The list He matured within to see such was sufficient, including direction of source materials and depositional force over millions of so called years insufficiently changed in rate, ....... that a fool needs to wake up when He is involved in exposing your foundation of error and faith.

If we do not learn from Him were can miss something when we summarize a sedimentary sequence, etc.

You can may well be a Beloved in Christ, but promoting an Old Earth billions of years old is errant. Apparent Age is presented in Genesis 1 and 2. How does your geologic understanding have such in your foundation knowledge you stand on? Where is it! Or is it an add on of low prominence and need!

 

[Job 33:6]

Leaning on natural explanations can be godless (God not envolved) and mentally acquired foundation of knowledge.

May I say I knew far more than you present as a godless Evolutionists and Naturalists (seeing how natural processes explains what we see in this world without the need for a God to explain or be needed).

Well, when there is God and you leave Him out your foundation is on sand.

In short, through His leading I found Evolution and Naturalism require great faith. The list He matured within to see such was sufficient, including direction of source materials and depositional force over millions of so called years insufficiently changed in rate, ....... that a fool needs to wake up when He is involved in exposing your foundation of error and faith.

If we do not learn from Him were can miss something when we summarize a sedimentary sequence, etc.

You can may well be a Beloved in Christ, but promoting an Old Earth billions of years old is errant. Apparent Age is presented in Genesis 1 and 2. How does your geologic understanding have such in your foundation knowledge you stand on? Where is it! Or is it an add on of low prominence and need!

When youre ready to respond to the original post, let me know...

 

[pat34lee]

Ok so, here is what I would like to do. And, for the sake of discussion, I could only kindly ask you to work with me here.

What do you think the link you posted, says? Can you summarize the geologic history of Florida with that link? What does it mean to you?

The only reason I posted the link was to show the actual
composition of Florida is mostly limestone and coral. The
stories they tell on how and why are interesting, but only
as much so as any fiction. And, like the coastlines of the
states and every other country, there is only evidence of
a few thousand years of erosion into the sea rather than
millions or billions of years.

 

[Job 33:6]

The only reason I posted the link was to show the actual
composition of Florida is mostly limestone and coral. The
stories they tell on how and why are interesting, but only
as much so as any fiction. And, like the coastlines of the
states and every other country, there is only evidence of
a few thousand years of erosion into the sea rather than
millions or billions of years.

You seem often to...not actually respond to my post. I dont know why you ignore my requests. I even asked nicely that you work with me, and then you just ignore my request.

I asked you to describe what it says in the link you posted. So that I could understand why you dont acknowledge it as a response to your own questions. Im not sure that you understand what it is your link says, which is why I am asking for your description of it.

I cant be bothered to hold a discussion if you arent willing to speak.

 

[Job 33:6]

@NobleMouse

I think many people who arent familiar with geology have the preconception that old earth geology is something that is only understood through things like radioactive decay. But in reality, uniformitarianism and old earth geology predate radioactive dating by over 150 years. Indeed, radioactive dating simply complimented and confirmed relative dating methods. And simply added precision and more clarity to what was already understood amongst early founding fathers.

There is much that can be said about radioactive dating. Varying dating methods confirm one another. Decay occurring within definite crystal lattices confirm minimum ages in minerals that are far older than 6000 years. This being without any alteration to the sample. Beyond that tectonic drift and expanses of rock when examined in relation to their rate of motion, further confirm radioactive methods.

But all of this is all just extra...as relative dating has already settled the discussion back in the early 1800s. And since the late 1700s geologists have gradually come to understand more and more about the old earth, to the point that in today's time, hardly any, perhaps less than a single percent, would ever claim the earth was only 6000 years old. And with good reason, as identified in the original post of this topic.

When we become aware of what is actually present in the earth, a 6000 year old earth, simply doesnt make sense from a scientific stance.

 

[Dale]

The only reason I posted the link was to show the actual
composition of Florida is mostly limestone and coral. The
stories they tell on how and why are interesting, but only
as much so as any fiction. And, like the coastlines of the
states and every other country, there is only evidence of
a few thousand years of erosion into the sea rather than
millions or billions of years.

Really? Yet Florida has many caves, although most are underwater. Caves form in limestone.


"These large underground chambers can take hundreds of thousands of years to form."

"Most of these solutional caves require more than 100,000 years to widen large enough to hold a human."


Link:
Caves and How They Form



"Florida limestone is very new. It is only 50-60 million years old, as compared to say the limestone in Kentucky, which is about 430 million years old."

Link:
Basic Florida Geology

 

[joshua 1 9]

How could such a complex geology ever be explained as something to have formed within 6000 years?

The Bible does not discuss the age of the Earth only the age we live in which began around 12980 years ago. At that time there was a extinction followed by a population explosion. 90% of the life from the old age died off.

"Nanodiamond" Find Supports Comet Extinction Theory

 

[Job 33:6]

The Bible does not discuss the age of the Earth only the age we live in which began around 12980 years ago. At that time there was a extinction followed by a population explosion. 90% of the life from the old age died off.

"Nanodiamond" Find Supports Comet Extinction Theory

I suppose if you would like, you are free to try to explain the original post, with 12,980 years. I would still say that is not nearly enough time.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I suppose if you would like, you are free to try to explain the original post, with 12,980 years. I would still say that is not nearly enough time.

Kurt Wise has a PhD in paleontology from Harvard University. He is a YEC, so he would be the one to talk to about that. My YEC would include the GAP theory of creation. I believe a day in Genesis was 1,000 years. Although there was a literal week when God's work was finished.

Genesis 1:2 is the same as Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." This indicates that in Genesis 1:2 God was working with an Earth that was in a state of ruin.

"There have been five mass extinction events in Earth's history. In the worst one, 250 million years ago, 96 percent of marine species and 70 percent of land species died off. It took millions of years to recover. Nowadays, many scientists are predicting that we're on track for a sixth mass extinction."

There have been five mass extinctions in Earth’s history. Now we’re facing a sixth.

The Bible requires a literal understanding. I am reading the book Paradigm and Cain explains how that works. An example of this would be the wise men and baby Jesus. From their study of the Bible they knew the exact place and the exact time Jesus would be there so they could greet Him. Daniel's 70 & 7 weeks from when the order to rebuild the temple was exactly 490 years. The temple mount is still there in Jerusalem and we can date the stores to see exactly when they were made.

Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

There is an Oral Tradition going back to Moses and the study of the Kabbalah helps us to understand the written books we received from Moses. Some people say the tradition goes back to Abraham and back to Adam. Oral Torah - Wikipedia

 

[Dale]

Kurt Wise has a PhD in paleontology from Harvard University. He is a YEC, so he would be the one to talk to about that. My YEC would include the GAP theory of creation. I believe a day in Genesis was 1,000 years. Although there was a literal week when God's work was finished.

Genesis 1:2 is the same as Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." This indicates that in Genesis 1:2 God was working with an Earth that was in a state of ruin.

"There have been five mass extinction events in Earth's history. In the worst one, 250 million years ago, 96 percent of marine species and 70 percent of land species died off. It took millions of years to recover. Nowadays, many scientists are predicting that we're on track for a sixth mass extinction."

There have been five mass extinctions in Earth’s history. Now we’re facing a sixth.

The Bible requires a literal understanding. I am reading the book Paradigm and Cain explains how that works. An example of this would be the wise men and baby Jesus. From their study of the Bible they knew the exact place and the exact time Jesus would be there so they could greet Him. Daniel's 70 & 7 weeks from when the order to rebuild the temple was exactly 490 years. The temple mount is still there in Jerusalem and we can date the stores to see exactly when they were made.

Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

There is an Oral Tradition going back to Moses and the study of the Kabbalah helps us to understand the written books we received from Moses. Some people say the tradition goes back to Abraham and back to Adam. Oral Torah - Wikipedia

We don't know how the Wise Men got their idea of when and where to find the Messiah. I've heard ministers comment on this. The Gospels indicate that they relied on signs in the sky, not Jewish manuscripts.

Let me get this straight. You are wiling to believe the Kaballah, which teaches that we are dealing with nine emanations of the original Creator God, to make ten phases of God, plus multiple combinations of these. Yet you find the methods that geologists use to date the age of the earth to be too much to believe. Huh?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Let me get this straight. You are wiling to believe the Kabbalah, which teaches that we are dealing with nine emanations of the original Creator God, to make ten phases of God, plus multiple combinations of these. Yet you find the methods that geologists use to date the age of the earth to be too much to believe. Huh?

I do not know what your talking about. I have no problem with geology except for their theory of gradualism. The Oroville Dam spillway failed miserably in california because they disregarded the catastrophic theory.

The Oroville Dam spillway failed miserably, so California is blowing it up

I laugh at the geologists for their mistake in building the spillway. I do not laugh at the insurance adjuster that tries to tell me that the damage was due to gradualism and not catastrophic damage due to a storm so he is not going to pay my claim.

In terms of the Kabbalah this is an oral tradition so we have to find teachers that know what they are talking about. Gerald Schroeder goes back to people like Nachmanides and Maimonides because they were not influenced by modern science. As far as I know no one wants to tear their statue down.

 

[Job 33:6]

I do not know what your talking about. I have no problem with geology except for their theory of gradualism. The Oroville Dam spillway failed miserably in california because they disregarded the catastrophic theory.

The Oroville Dam spillway failed miserably, so California is blowing it up

I laugh at the geologists for their mistake in building the spillway. I do not laugh at the insurance adjuster that tries to tell me that the damage was due to gradualism and not catastrophic damage due to a storm so he is not going to pay my claim.

In terms of the Kabbalah this is an oral tradition so we have to find teachers that know what they are talking about. Gerald Schroeder goes back to people like Nachmanides and Maimonides because they were not influenced by modern science. As far as I know no one wants to tear their statue down.

The OP is basically describing the geology found in NY, and it is a challenge for YECs regarding its explanation. So, I was simply asking you, if you could explain its features, using a 10,000 year mindset.

Structural engineers design dams, not geologists (not that geologists wouldn't be involved in its planning). But regardless, uniformitarianism has nothing to do with how you design a dam. Bringing up the oroville dam is irrelevant to the topic.

And you mentioned some YEC paleontologist, but my OP isnt about paleontology.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Bringing up the oroville dam is irrelevant to the topic.

Fine with me if you want to sweep their garbage science under the carpet and try to hide it. But if that dam had failed there was going to be a lot of damage.

So, I was simply asking you, if you could explain its features, using a 10,000 year mindset.

Dispensationalism has more to do with the dispensation, age or era that we are currently in. So we do not have an explanation for other dispensations, eras or ages. If I found something in the Bible it would be in the form of a paradigm. For example look at Genesis one verse two: "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." We see this again in Jeremiah 4 "23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro." You want to talk about the geological formations but this is a description of what is going on between the formations. Between the ages and eras that we read about in the Bible.

There are hundreds of thousands of library books in libraries like Harvard and MIT that talk about what we read about in the Bible. Moses was back in the beginning of science and he pretty much only gave an outline. He was a product of the Egyptian Science school system. His daddy was Pharaoh of the country. That means Moses was entitled to the best education that money could provide. Plus he had access to what they preserved from Abraham a product of the Chaldean school system. Again Abraham had the best education you could get in the city of Ur back in his day.

Of course we no longer have the library today that Moses had. Alexander sold the library off so that he could pay his war debts. That is why Moses could only save the important stuff for us. Even in Jerusalem in 70 AD when they tore the temple down. A lot of books and information was lost and destroyed then. This is not unusual, in Mexico the conquistadors destroyed a lot of their material that the aztecs had at the time. Only the Hebrews were a mobile people. They moved from Egypt to Israel and then to Babylon and even they were dispersed to the whole world. So Moses took all the information and condensed it down to a book that each and every individual could take with them.

 

[Dale]

I do not know what your talking about. I have no problem with geology except for their theory of gradualism. The Oroville Dam spillway failed miserably in california because they disregarded the catastrophic theory.

The Oroville Dam spillway failed miserably, so California is blowing it up

I laugh at the geologists for their mistake in building the spillway. I do not laugh at the insurance adjuster that tries to tell me that the damage was due to gradualism and not catastrophic damage due to a storm so he is not going to pay my claim.

In terms of the Kabbalah this is an oral tradition so we have to find teachers that know what they are talking about. Gerald Schroeder goes back to people like Nachmanides and Maimonides because they were not influenced by modern science. As far as I know no one wants to tear their statue down.

You do seem to be obsessed with the Oroville Dam. Do you live near this Dam?

The reason it "failed" has nothing to do with gradualism/uniformitarianism or catastrophism. The greatest reason it failed is simply because the designers never expected such a large amount of rain in the area in such a short time. Another point that may be relevant is that dams in the US are aging. After a burst of dam building in the 1930's, for years they were recent enough to be solid, but now they are getting old. Aging structures can need repair, even replacement. It's not an exciting issue for politicians, just something that needs to be done.

On the Kaballah: Are you aware that the explanation for the origin of evil in the Kaballah is completely different from that believed by Chrisitians?

 

[joshua 1 9]

You do seem to be obsessed with the Oroville Dam. Do you live near this Dam?

The reason it "failed" has nothing to do with gradualism/uniformitarianism or catastrophism. The greatest reason it failed is simply because the designers never expected such a large amount of rain in the area in such a short time. Another point that may be relevant is that dams in the US are aging. After a burst of dam building in the 1930's, for years they were recent enough to be solid, but now they are getting old. Aging structures can need repair, even replacement. It's not an exciting issue for politicians, just something that needs to be done.

On the Kaballah: Are you aware that the explanation for the origin of evil in the Kaballah is completely different from that believed by Chrisitians?

It failed because it was not designed to handle 100,000 cubic feet per second of water pressure. This is the same amount of pressure that was needed to created the grand canyon. As you admit the designers did not design it to handle that much pressure. It took a creationist to explain catastrophic theory to them.

Answer your own question: Why did they not expect such a large amount of rain? In 19 years Neil Degrasse tells us that california may see a tsunami in 2036. This is a disaster they need to plan for a be prepared to handle. I keep pointing to Oroville dam as a teaching tool. A point of contact to explain to people what I am talking about. They can look at see what the damage is from 100,000 cubic feet oer second of water.

My brother bought a house in florida and they just had a big storm there. But his house can handle winds up to 110 mph. So he weathered the storm. If people are not prepared then they may suffer loss when the storms of life hits them.

Matthew 7:24-27 (ESV)
Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”