Old Earth Geology

[Job 33:6]

Nice post. Yea I mean, people have ideas about the precise nature of how He created the universe. And how he created earth and man as well. Because the oldest rocks are magma, this leads me to believe the earth, when spoken into creation, however that occurred, was hot. That's about all I can gather from magma, it being hot. Beyond that, we leave the realm of geology. Was it volcanoes on a cooled rock or a massive ball of magma? Not sure. But I suspect it was hot.

Some ancient rocks on earth actually cannot form in today's environment, earth isn't hot enough to form some ultramafic rocks. But because they're here, they too give us an idea of how the earth was hotter in ancient times of earths past.

 

[pat34lee]

How could such a complex geology ever be explained as something to have formed within 6000 years?

Two ways. First, the world was formed complete.
Nothing necessary for life was left out or unfinished.

Second, the flood.

Considering limestone: Notice all the sinkholes forming around the planet?
Limestone cannot last millions of years.

 

[Job 33:6]

Two ways. First, the world was formed complete.
Nothing necessary for life was left out or unfinished.

Second, the flood.

Considering limestone: Notice all the sinkholes forming around the planet?
Limestone cannot last millions of years.

There is a topic going on right now. Let me see if I can find the link. And in the topic, a person proposes the idea that the earth was created fully formed and complete as it is.

Dinosaurs and Humans Coexisting! (My Thoughts on the Creation Museum)

and to that, I said

"dinosaur bones in and of themselves are evidence for the existence of animals that once lived. For example, there may be a dinosaur nest with eggs in it. There may be dinosaur teeth marks in other bones of dinosaurs. Fossils found in the environments which they lived.There are fossilized eggs, fossilized feces. Things that indicate that these animals once lived and walked earth, just as we do now. As opposed to being created in the earth, with the appearance as if they once existed.

This idea that dinosaurs were created in the earth, but never really existed is strange. It is like proposing the idea that you were actually created today, and that you didnt actually exist yesterday, but that God created you with the perception that you were alive yesterday, but you actually were not.

Or how about footprints? If you were walking through your backyard and you saw footprints from an animal, would it not make sense to believe that an animal once walked through the yard? As opposed to God simply creating the footprints, but no animal actually walked to create them?"

I see people continue to propose the idea that the earth was fully formed upon creation as it is, and I just don't understand how it makes any sense.


And regarding limestone, yes it erodes, but water is not present in motion in all places and at all times to erode it away. I have a piece of limestone sitting on my shelf. It hasn't eroded away. Why? Because it is not exposed to an environment that would erode it. Other rocks erode away as well. Shales, siltstones, even harder rocks like quartzite. But an environment that promotes erosion is necessary for it to occur.

I would spin this topic around a bit and suggest that fossilized feces and dinosaur nests would not exist if a global flood occurred that would wash such things away. But if no global flood occurred, and they existed in an environment that wasn't subjected to erosion, then they would fossilize and could last millions of years, as they have.

 

[pat34lee]

There is a topic going on right now. Let me see if I can find the link. And in the topic, a person proposes the idea that the earth was created fully formed and complete as it is.

As to the limestone on your shelf: if you were gone, how long
would that house continue to stand to protect it? Decades?
Maybe a century or two? Everything breaks down pretty fast.

The fake dinosaur theory discounts the fact that people have
seen dinosaurs through every age in history, and have both
drawn and written about them, right up to the present day.

 

[Job 33:6]

As to the limestone on your shelf: if you were gone, how long
would that house continue to stand to protect it? Decades?
Maybe a century or two? Everything breaks down pretty fast.

Mountains often do not break down fast, as the tops of mountains often are covered in extensively dense and hard rock like quartzite. Would a house that covers limestone break down in a million years? yes. Would a 100 foot thick layer of quartzite (that covers limestone)? No.

The point is that limestone would not erode away if it were not exposed to erosive forces, such as a river, or a glacier, or high winds etc.

The limestone you referred to earlier when you mentioned "sink holes", is limestone that is exposed to groundwater. Sinkholes do not form in dry areas, they form in areas saturated by groundwater.

Take limestone, elevate it above the water table, and cap it with quartzite, and you have limestone that will last millions of years.

 

[Job 33:6]

for @pat34lee

Feel free to look at the original post again and see if you can make sense of the pattern of rocks without the earth needing to be old.

 

[dad]

I figured I would make a thread on the geology of New York, to see what Young Earth Creationists might think.

The discussion begins with the diagram below.

Genesee Group (NYDg;4)
Sonyea Group (NYDs;5)
Angola and Rhinestreet Shales (NYDwf;4)
Machias Formation (NYDcy;4)

At the base, limestone. Limestone largely consisting of microscopic carbonaceous shells. Derived from deep sea shelled organisms. These are rocks formed at great depths.

Dark carbonaceous shales (identified in the figure as black shale facies) are rich in organics. Formed in anoxic environments without oxygen for decomposition. With higher amounts of organic material, shales take on a dark black color. With less oxygen, oxygen poor environments yield precipitation of sulfide minerals.

These dark shales form in an environment also of a deep sea, but with influence from nearby deposition of sediment.

Above the black shale facies are mudstone-sandstone facies. Shales again, but with higher oxygen content. Shallow waters allow for circulation of oxygen forming minerals like hematite (FeO2) and Magnetite (FeO3). The rocks take on a lighter hue. Sandstones, formed in shallow marine and terrestrial environments (much like the sandy beaches of today).

These are the rocks of shallow marine and a terrestrial beach like environment.

Above these rocks still, the Catskill Devonian red beds. Highly oxidated. Lithologies found in fining upward sequences with turbidites, sorted by density, with conglomerates (rocks formed in tumbling depositional environments).
-----------------------------------------------------
Collectively, we have 5 groups of rock, each group having the sequence of rocks above.

Beyond that further, atop the Devonian shale is glacial till (unsorted, not deposited by water), glacial moraines, drop stones, glacial striations, lakes in a north to south direction (carved by glaciers moving in a north to south direction)

These are traits of Pleistocene ice ages.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Uniformitarianism has a simple explanation. The Acadian Orogeny.

As continental crust advances from the ocean in a western direction into what was then central america, mountain ranges are eroding, depositing sediment. Deltas form along the mountain range. Sea level rises, deeper waters give rise to anoxic carbonaceous shales. Sea level drops, the sea becomes aerated, more oxidized minerals form, rocks change color and chemistry.

Fast forward to the pleistocene epoch, ice comes down from the north, carves the great lakes and finger lakes, then deposits unsorted glacial till as it melts away.

And the fossils match. No dinosaurs in NY as the rocks are twice as old as the earliest dinosaurs. No mammals, no birds. Tetrapods are present (as predicted, tetrapods are of the devonian period). No bunny rabbits. Just devonian tetrapods and fish.
--------------------------------------------------------------
How could such a complex geology ever be explained as something to have formed within 6000 years?

Easy. Name any layer you think is a problem?

 

[Job 33:6]

The catskill delta complex ^

 

[dad]

The catskill delta complex ^

Pre flood. So?

 

[Percivale]

Pre flood. So?

Why are there no whale fossils in mesozoic layers even though there are lots of fish there? Why are there so many more marine fossils than land animal fossils?

 

[Job 33:6]

Why are there no whale fossils in mesozoic layers even though there are lots of fish there? Why are there so many more marine fossils than land animal fossils?

Are you asking me? Sounds like these are loaded questions for others.

thanks,

Oh nevermind, I have Dad blocked so sometimes i miss his posts. His ideas are bizarre and ultimately do not make any sense (Sorry Dad!), so I dont bother much...

 

[Job 33:6]

Pre flood. So?

Are you able to distinguish between pre flood and post flood rocks on any scientific grounds? No...your comment is just arbitrary subjection. I say these rocks are from after the flood, prove me wrong.

 

[Percivale]

Are you asking me? Sounds like these are loaded questions for others.

thanks,

Oh nevermind, I have Dad blocked so sometimes i miss his posts. His ideas are bizarre and ultimately do not make any sense (Sorry Dad!), so I dont bother much...

Yep I learned that the earth is old a few years ago. I really am disturbed at the amount of ignorance I've come across on these forums. Thank you for reminding me how little science I know compared to what there is.

 

[dad]

Why are there no whale fossils in mesozoic layers even though there are lots of fish there? Why are there so many more marine fossils than land animal fossils?

Probably because there was a different nature in place in the earlier pre flood days, and most creatures then could not fossilize.

 

[dad]

Why are there no whale fossils in mesozoic layers even though there are lots of fish there? Why are there so many more marine fossils than land animal fossils?

Probably because there was a different nature in place in the earlier pre flood days, and most creatures then could not fossilize.

 

[dad]

Are you able to distinguish between pre flood and post flood rocks on any scientific grounds?

Yes. Of course. The flood may have been somewhere around the KT layer, and we have the means to place that.

 

[pat34lee]

Mountains often do not break down fast, as the tops of mountains often are covered in extensively dense and hard rock like quartzite. Would a house that covers limestone break down in a million years? yes. Would a 100 foot thick layer of quartzite (that covers limestone)? No.

The point is that limestone would not erode away if it were not exposed to erosive forces, such as a river, or a glacier, or high winds etc.

The limestone you referred to earlier when you mentioned "sink holes", is limestone that is exposed to groundwater. Sinkholes do not form in dry areas, they form in areas saturated by groundwater.

Take limestone, elevate it above the water table, and cap it with quartzite, and you have limestone that will last millions of years.

You're excluding rain, snow, meltwater, flooding, and whatever other
sources of water from above and water coming up from below. Water
seeps through most rocks to some degree, and I don't think there are
that many areas where limestone has thick layers of waterproof rock
all around it.

 

[Job 33:6]

You're excluding rain, snow, meltwater, flooding, and whatever other
sources of water from above and water coming up from below. Water
seeps through most rocks to some degree, and I don't think there are
that many areas where limestone has thick layers of waterproof rock
all around it.

Youre correct, rain, snow, meltwater. These also will erode any rock away with time. You say there arent many areas where limestone has waterproof rock above it, but I just gave one in my OP.

Shales and siltstones are rocks that, typically are impervious (not just igneous rocks like granites or metamorphosed schists or quartzite). They form what we call, confining layers of aquifers. This is how you get a spring. See below.

Layers of impervious rock that prevent the passage of water, create springs. This is the same reason that if you drill a well in a shaley location, you may have to drill down 800+ feet just to get a few gallons per minute of water. And this is very common. Tight shale formations, quartzite beds, impervious siltstones, these are very common. See the perched water resting atop the impervious layer?

And most likely, if you live in the US, and you arent living on the beach, if you drink water from the ground, youre likely drawing it from a confined or semi confined aquifer created by impervious rock.

Again, this is common. And these are the things that also will keep limestones from eroding away.

And also, you do still get erosion of limestone. A river will cut through limestone with time, or will dissolve areas in the ground to create sinkholes. But then what? the water flows on to another area. Water doesnt go out of its way to target all limestone. so you have areas of limestone that arent exposed to those rivers. Rivers are often fed by that snow melt, and rain. Snow melts and the water collects in ponds or rivers. But if the limestone is not in the path of that rain water runoff, or in the path of that river, it wont be eroded away.

And lastly, limestone is still rock. Its not like its tissue paper that just instantly dissolves. Often limestone still has relatively hard minerals in it that slow its erosion. Like the white cliffs of dover. Its all limestone and its right up against the battering waves of the sea, yet it stands firm and has been there longer than any person.

the egyptian pyramids are made of limestone, theyre standing just fine and have been for what 5000 years? And those pyramids are like a sheet of paper in comparison to the thickness of some limestone beds.

 

[pat34lee]

And lastly, limestone is still rock. Its not like its tissue paper that just instantly dissolves. Often limestone still has relatively hard minerals in it that slow its erosion. Like the white cliffs of dover. Its all limestone and its right up against the battering waves of the sea, yet it stands firm and has been there longer than any person.

the egyptian pyramids are made of limestone, theyre standing just fine and have been for what 5000 years? And those pyramids are like a sheet of paper in comparison to the thickness of some limestone beds.

I shortened up your post a little because it makes it easier for me to reply.

Let me choose Florida for a small example, as I live there.
FGS - Florida Geologic History

Nothing could have protected the limestone and coral which makes up
most of Florida, not for millions of years. Besides, look at how little the
state has eroded over the (eons?) years.

The Sphinx and the pyramids were covered with sand for much of the
last two or three thousand years. Not to mention that you don't get
that much rain in the desert.

Side note: the Sphinx and the pyramids show signs of having been
under the sea, possibly in a worldwide flood? We know the pyramids
were once covered with a plaster substance, which would have helped
protect the blocks, and the Sphinx may have had a similar coating.
Fossil Suggests Egyptian Pyramids and Sphinx Once Submerged Under Sea Water

 

[Job 33:6]

I shortened up your post a little because it makes it easier for me to reply.

Let me choose Florida for a small example, as I live there.
FGS - Florida Geologic History

Nothing could have protected the limestone and coral which makes up
most of Florida, not for millions of years. Besides, look at how little the
state has eroded over the (eons?) years.

Ok so, here is what I would like to do. And, for the sake of discussion, I could only kindly ask you to work with me here.

What do you think the link you posted, says? Can you summarize the geologic history of Florida with that link? What does it mean to you?

The reason I ask is that, the information in that link, answers your own question. It makes me wonder what you are seeing when you read through it.

Take a look at the terms, if there are any you arent familiar with, just google them so it makes sense.