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Old Earth Geology

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Isaiah 41:10, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    I figured I would make a thread on the geology of New York, to see what Young Earth Creationists might think.

    The discussion begins with the diagram below.
    [​IMG]

    Genesee Group (NYDg;4)
    Sonyea Group (NYDs;5)
    Angola and Rhinestreet Shales (NYDwf;4)
    Machias Formation (NYDcy;4)

    At the base, limestone. Limestone largely consisting of microscopic carbonaceous shells. Derived from deep sea shelled organisms. These are rocks formed at great depths.

    Dark carbonaceous shales (identified in the figure as black shale facies) are rich in organics. Formed in anoxic environments without oxygen for decomposition. With higher amounts of organic material, shales take on a dark black color. With less oxygen, oxygen poor environments yield precipitation of sulfide minerals.

    These dark shales form in an environment also of a deep sea, but with influence from nearby deposition of sediment.

    Above the black shale facies are mudstone-sandstone facies. Shales again, but with higher oxygen content. Shallow waters allow for circulation of oxygen forming minerals like hematite (FeO2) and Magnetite (FeO3). The rocks take on a lighter hue. Sandstones, formed in shallow marine and terrestrial environments (much like the sandy beaches of today).

    These are the rocks of shallow marine and a terrestrial beach like environment.

    Above these rocks still, the Catskill Devonian red beds. Highly oxidated. Lithologies found in fining upward sequences with turbidites, sorted by density, with conglomerates (rocks formed in tumbling depositional environments).
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Collectively, we have 5 groups of rock, each group having the sequence of rocks above.

    Beyond that further, atop the Devonian shale is glacial till (unsorted, not deposited by water), glacial moraines, drop stones, glacial striations, lakes in a north to south direction (carved by glaciers moving in a north to south direction)

    These are traits of Pleistocene ice ages.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Uniformitarianism has a simple explanation. The Acadian Orogeny.

    As continental crust advances from the ocean in a western direction into what was then central america, mountain ranges are eroding, depositing sediment. Deltas form along the mountain range. Sea level rises, deeper waters give rise to anoxic carbonaceous shales. Sea level drops, the sea becomes aerated, more oxidized minerals form, rocks change color and chemistry.

    Fast forward to the pleistocene epoch, ice comes down from the north, carves the great lakes and finger lakes, then deposits unsorted glacial till as it melts away.



    And the fossils match. No dinosaurs in NY as the rocks are twice as old as the earliest dinosaurs. No mammals, no birds. Tetrapods are present (as predicted, tetrapods are of the devonian period). No bunny rabbits. Just devonian tetrapods and fish.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    How could such a complex geology ever be explained as something to have formed within 6000 years?
     
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  2. I'm_Sorry

    I'm_Sorry Taking a break from CF Supporter

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    What if the earth is flat?

    How can we date rocks if the geological theory has its foundations in cosmology?

    If the earth is the centre and not the sun, all dating goes out the window.
     
  3. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Since you know far moe about geology than I do, correct me if I'm wrong.

    In areas where there are oil-bearing strata, oil is often found at more than one level. It is very common for oil to be found at two widely different depths, or even three or four. The reason is simple. These oil deposits were laid down at different times in geologic history.

    It is my experience that creationists don't understand this. They expect us to believe that all oil deposits and all coal deposits were laid down in one massive event, Noah's Flood. Yet we know this isn't possible because there are too many different strata, different levels with their own characteristics, laid down at different times.
     
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  4. _-iconoclast-_

    _-iconoclast-_ I live by faith in the Son of God.

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    Because our creator is a marvel - couldnt resist.

    Whether the earth was created through millions of years of development or in a smaller time frame. What we have faith? - God created it. :)
     
  5. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi komatite,

    Just curious if you could also post a diagram showing how the surface and underlying foundation thereof, looked on the day the earth came to be in existence?

    God bless you,
    In Christ, ted
     
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  6. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi komatite,

    Question #2: There is an account in the Scriptures that supposedly in a matter of moments, Jesus requested that some folks fill some fairly large jugs with water. Within a very, very, very short time period that water was declared to be the finest wine that had been served at a wedding up to that point. Can you explain how that could be?

    I mean, I can fill a jug with water and set it out for years and it won't ever become wine, let alone fine wine. How did Jesus do it?

    God bless you,
    In Christ, ted
     
  7. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    Sure.
    New York State Geologic Map - New York State • mappery
    http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/courses/geog383.19/geology_nys.pdf

    The underlying rocks are undifferentiated grenville basement rocks of the proterozoic. Which basically just means theyre really old.

    These rocks may vary by type depending on the depth and location, but overall, these are ancient, highly metamorphosed (High temperature, high pressure from subduction), rocks. They arent of Hadean or Archean age, so while old, they are not exceedingly old or the oldest. The earth recycles its rocks over time, and to find the absolute oldest, sometimes you have to look in other locations.

    An example of this rock is the fordham gneiss. Gneiss being metamorphosed granite, which is of volcanic origins (Felsic magma). Other sections include marble (metamorphosed limestone) and Gneiss (highly metamorphosed Granite/Metamorphosed Gneiss).

    Bedrock Geology of New York City: More than 600 m.y. of geologic history
    GSA Geologic Time Scale
     
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  8. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi komatite.

    So, it is your contention that the solid ground of the earth on the day it was created was one giant rock through and through. From exposed surface to deep within the bowls of the planet, just a solid piece of rock. Correct?

    Are you able to prove that?

    God bless you,
    In Christ, ted
     
  9. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    The oldest rocks of today are made of cooled magma. That's just what they are. And magma prior to cooling is hot.

    Metamorphosed rock are essentially highly compressed and heated sedimentary rocks. Take a limestone, squeeze it and heat it up, it structurally turns into marble. Take a granite, squeeze it and heat it up, it becomes gneiss and schist. Which is what we see.

    So, we see magmas that have been cooled and squeezed.

    So what was the earth like before us? I can only imagine that it was magma that was cooled and squeezed. Was I alive back then? No. I simply derive an answer from what we see.

    Just as if I am driving down the street and I see two cars broken into pieces and upset people standing with their cars. I derive that there was a car accident prior to my arrival. Was I present back then? No. I simply derive an answer from what I see.
     
  10. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Offtopic.
    Are you aware of any continental maps or world maps that show large sediment distributions in comparison to areas of exposed bedrock or areas with little comparative sediment?
     
  11. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    Hm. There are EPA ecoregional maps, these might give an idea of what types of sediment exist in different areas.
    Level III and IV Ecoregions of the Continental United States | US EPA

    If you are asking specifically for a map of rock outcrops, i am not aware of any. You just kind of have to explore and find them. But with the exception of road cuts and elevated structural features like mountains and synclines and anticlines etc, most areas are covered by sediment. Often the sediment is derived from subsurface geologic features.

    If you are interested in soils, there are also USDA electronic soil maps.

    Not sure if that helps.
     
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  12. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's mainly the contrast between bedrock outcrops and the areas covered in sediment. Do you know of any large zones of exposed bedrock?

    (What I'm thinking about here is offtopic. Most of the ancient civilizations we find are below geologic sediment. So I always wondered if there were a map that might give an expectation to how deep one would have to dig to search for civilization. )
     
  13. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    Oh um. Well, ill tell ya I wish I had a map of exposed outcrops. But i dont think such a thing exists.

    Regarding your thoughts though, im not an archaeologist but i do work with archaeologists (human history digging) and have been on archaeological digs, and in my experience, archaeological artifacts that I have found, were present in overlying soils at about... 3-4 feet in depth. Though this all depends on where youre located and what rate of deposition there may be.

    Often, the way archaeologists dig for things like native american artifacts, they use shovels and dig "units" of maybe a meter in width and length. And they dig in 10 centimeter (not inches, dont dig in inches or theyll get mad) intervals down through soil, and they log every 10 centimeters until they reach either bedrock, or until they are completely through their archaeological site depth.

    Alternatively there are paleontologists (ancient life digging), which, i wouldnt call myself a paleontologist either (though i occasionally go out on paleo digs and work with paleontologists somewhat regularly), but paleontologists might find fossils in just about any rock, though things like metamorphosed or igneous rocks, given their magmatic or super compressed origins, often do not yield fossils. Though if metamorphic rocks do yield fossils, you can actually apply neat physics and using those fossils, you can better understand rock deformation. For example, if you have a fossil that is of a bug that is the shape of a circle, and you see in the rock that bug has been stretched into the shape of an oval, you can better understand how the entire rock itself has stretched and deformed (by heat and pressure likely during subduction) based on the shape of the fossil.

    Given that ancient fossils are typically in rock as opposed to soil, paleontolgists typically do not use shovels to find fossils as archaeologists use shovels to find artifacts. Though you may have bedrock that is decomposed or eroded that forms soil, in which case you might find fossils in broken down bedrock. I would be a skeptic of human artifacts present in bedrock, and would typically ask for professional sources. However it also depends on the age of the rock, as human history does stretch back quite far, relatively speaking.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
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  14. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    Two ways:

    Easier way: Not in 6000 years. But neither in 5 billion years.
    Harder way: Shift the time scale.

    Either way, geology of the rock sequence could be explained by the "Young" earth theory.

    The best way is to combine the two into one. A understandable description has been made in Genesis 1.
     
  15. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    Both are possible. A neutral argument.
     
  16. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    There is no such map.
     
  17. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    No such map available commercially.
     
  18. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    So what do you propose? 100 thousand years? 1 million years? 10 million?
     
  19. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    Not-4.5 billion years.
     
  20. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have an idea of how long? Maybe 5 million?
     
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