Obedience

[Jane_the_Bane]

dlamberth, wonder just one thing about you and that is we know all of us have sinned and need a Saviour.

Speak for yourself.
I do not perceive any of us as "perfect" when measured against an ideal that would necessitate us to make correct decisions in every conceivable circumstance, but I do not perceive our errors and character flaws as supernatural stains - I see them as learning experiences and a potential for personal growth, like a child stumbling while learning to walk.
In this, I concur with the Buddhists: our failures are not metaphysical marks of damnation as much as they are "unskilled behaviour", stemming from ill judgments, false conclusions or unreflected, unconscious desires.
If there is any spiritual weight to our shortcomings, it lies entirely in our ability to realize them as such, and to strive towards becoming all that we could be.

So who did you go to for your substitute in your place to atone for the sins that you have committed.

And here is where your faith strays right into monstrosity. You basically claim that the best way to deal with the mistakes you have committed is to point at another, innocent party and say: "Let HIM be punished for them." Even within the context of Christianity, I find that to be a disgusting travesty of what the Cross can actually signify, reducing its message to a despicable trade that adds the ultimate sin to those who take it: not acknowledging responsibility for your own errors, but just deflecting it upon another.
There is a reason why scapegoating has gained such negative connotations in colloquial usage: it is a psychological mechanism that does not eliminate guilt, but merely seeks to place it in another, innocent party.

 

[Gibs]

Just like Satan who thought to know "GOOD" better than God;;;, man has entered also to do that.

The best education one can get is not of this world but is of God. It will only come by partaking of His Holy Word of Truth and Love and Justice and the partaker having repented and then born again of His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, The Comforter.

What must be realized is that one must have the same Spirit that breathed that Word to the Prophets who wrote it and that is known as the Spirit of Truth.

Until this is realized and "TASTED" of, the Word to them is but another book of print by some old ancient men.

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Just like Satan who thought to know "GOOD" better than God;;;, man has entered also to do that.

It's sad to see how you have to stoop in order to rationalize world views that differ from your own.
There is no hubris in acknowledging our failures, no overweening pride in realizing that we are doddering children who spend all their lives learning to walk. Even if we never manage to become the most accomplished dancers, never attain the ideal that would see us execute every footstep with perfect precision, our journey towards that goal matters.

It'd take a truly arrogant and self-obsessed soul to conceive of life's lessons as nothing more than crimes that need to be heaped upon another's head, all in the name of saving one's own behind from any repercussions.

 

[dlamberth]

Just like Satan who thought to know "GOOD" better than God;;;, man has entered also to do that.

I have no thoughts or desires of knowing "Good" better than God. What I do know is that everywhere I look I do not see any sign of a Judgmental God standing ready to punish His own Creation. I see that concept of God as totally dysfunctional and at truth non-Loving and I thankfully I've been freed from it. Historically, for thousands of years we find that concepts of a Judgmental God dishing out punishment has done great harm to societies and more directly to human beings around the globe. Millions have been killed in God's name by people who hold to those concepts. It's time that those old concepts be thrown into the trash heap where they belong. Love...True Love has no room for judgments or punishments of any kind.

.

 

[light upon light]

I'm no longer a Christian, so any more I tend to look at things completely different than you.

I think you're a wonderful Christian.

For instance, that image of Sin and Punishment that you're talking about is not at all in my awareness now days. I've been completely freed from those kinds of things.

I would say that sin is being less than loving, and punishment is what it feels like in our heart to be less than loving, and Divine forgiveness is to see that we were not loving, but now to see Love everywhere and in everything.

As an example, when I sit in the Heart of Christ I'm unable to find anything like what you're talking about. As for a Savior, if any person opens my soul to the Divine presence of God, who ever they are, they are very much a Savior to me. Along those same lines I find my Savior in most everyone I know, for I see God in everyone. I see every soul is an activity of God, that's the reality I live in. Using Christian words...Christ is everywhere one looks.

That is beautiful!

What you're talking about has no place in my spiritual path. In fact I find ones concern for atonement somewhat self centered.

Yep! It sure is!

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." - Matthew 16:25

Thinking self-centeredly about our personal salvation is a mind-trap.

Hell is self-centered thinking, and heaven is Universal thinking.

I tend to turn it around and see who I can help and serve. When done with Love, God is made alive with in both my life and the person who is being helped. And to me that's what important here, not my salvation. I see salvation, what ever that is as God's stuff, not my stuff.

Love IS salvation.

I know that's your belief, but that's not at all what I experience in God, so those ideas that you present are not in any way in my spiritual radar. In fact, hopefully your getting the understanding that I find those the images of Sin and Judgment are not even needed for one to know and live in the presence of God. The only thing I find those images of Sin and of a Judgmental God are needed for is to define a religion, that's all. To be honest, I even feel that society needs to be freed of those old images and realize that what's going on is a spiritual awakening of the Human species. And that's done through Love, Compassion, Forgiveness and Service to those in need. Which by the way is what I understand as the central teachings of Jesus Christ.

Beautiful.

As I pointed out, remission of sins has no place in my Love for my Beloved God. To take it even further, I feel it just one more thing that gets into the way of the presence of God in my life.

.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." - John 4:18

What you are describing is a higher level of consciousness, it is what Christ preached as "The Kingdom of God". To see love, not hate. To see everyone as beloved sons and daughters of God.

I wish you would not reject the label of Christian. I see you as a beautiful Christian!

 

[gord44]

I have no thoughts or desires of knowing "Good" better than God. What I do know is that everywhere I look I do not see any sign of a Judgmental God standing ready to punish His own Creation. I see that concept of God as totally dysfunctional and at truth non-Loving and I thankfully I've been freed from it. Historically, for thousands of years we find that concepts of a Judgmental God dishing out punishment has done great harm to societies and more directly to human beings around the globe. Millions have been killed in God's name by people who hold to those concepts. It's time that those old concepts be thrown into the trash heap where they belong. Love...True Love has no room for judgments or punishments of any kind.

.

I have seen G-d lately as judgemental, but when He raises His sword arm to judge us, He pauses. The angels wonder what the heck is going on as G-d has not ever stopped in his judgement before. Always been very decisive. Like a tyrant. But almost in with tears in His eyes (this is all metaphorical of course) he sees us (humanity) as who will escort Him (as a bride) towards the groom (the sabbath). So He will wait until he can judge us as 'very good'.

 

[Gibs]

We only get true wisdom and understanding from His Word and via His Spirit in partaking.

Discerning His Word without His Spirit is useless. God only made Prophets of Men that learned from Him and not men, or through the schools of men.

Pr 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[dlamberth]

We only get true wisdom and understanding from His Word and via His Spirit in partaking.

Personally, I see True Wisdom as the seed of Compassion.

.

 

[smaneck]

J

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then so is the Qur'an since it is scripture too.

 

[Gibs]

No the Qur'an is not worth a nickel because it is not the Word of God who gave to us a proven Saviour.

In the Bible we have the Word of life of which none other has.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Only one has proven He can state the following,

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[gord44]

Edit...

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

No the Qur'an is not worth a nickel because it is not the Word of God who gave to us a proven Saviour.

You seem to confuse the term Word [of God] (gk. "Logos") with the Bible.
In Johannine terms, it refers to Jesus, NOT scriptures. One would think that being enlightened by the Holy Spirit and all, you'd have even such a basic grasp of the text, instead of perpetuating this kind of idolatry.

 

[smaneck]

You seem to confuse the term Word [of God] (gk. "Logos") with the Bible.
In Johannine terms, it refers to Jesus, NOT scriptures. One would think that being enlightened by the Holy Spirit and all, you'd have even such a basic grasp of the text, instead of perpetuating this kind of idolatry.

Actually, in Islam the Qur'an is the Logos in the same sense that Jesus is the Logos in the Bible. But that is a long story.

 

[smaneck]

We only get true wisdom and understanding from His Word and via His Spirit in partaking.

Discerning His Word without His Spirit is useless.

Translation: I'm right because I understand this and you can't.

 

[smaneck]

No the Qur'an is not worth a nickel because it is not the Word of God who gave to us a proven Saviour.

Proven savior? Sorry, but I bunch of verses from the Bible don't prove much of anything. I can post just as many verses from the Qur'an.

 

[dlamberth]

No the Qur'an is not worth a nickel because it is not the Word of God who gave to us a proven Saviour.

God has some interesting ways of reaching down to humanity. The Qur'an as well as the Jewish Bible, the Christian Bible AND the Hindu Vedas all have proven their worth to humanity. So factually, what your claiming just isn't true.

.

 

[Gibs]

Jesus Christ alone proved He was the way the truth and the life!

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mr 16:9 ¶ Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Me 16:10And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
Mr 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[smaneck]

Jesus Christ alone proved He was the way the truth and the life!

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mr 16:9 ¶ Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Me 16:10And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
Mr 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Uh, and how exactly does this prove it?

It reminds me of a story in Rumi's Mathnavi. There was a sick man who called for a doctor. When the doctor came he asked "Are you a good physician?" The doctor answered, "I am the best" and proceeded to prove it by flying around the room.
Interesting, but not really relevant to being a good physician.

In any case, what could a third hand account of someone supposedly rising from the dead two thousand years ago possibly prove to me today? What proof would I have that it even happened?

 

[dlamberth]

Jesus Christ alone proved He was the way the truth and the life!

A process that has helped me is to look at Christ with out any of the beliefs and dogma surrounding Him. Set Him free with absolutely no boundaries or limitations in ones images OR experiences of Him. While expanding Christ out not only to the Cosmos but also within and through all of humanity I find a boundless Christ that can not fit into any single religion. Yet it is a cosmic force that nicely fits in to the Heart of man, regardless of their spiritual beliefs.

.

 

[light upon light]

A process that has helped me is to look at Christ with out any of the beliefs and dogma surrounding Him. Set Him free with absolutely no boundaries or limitations in ones images OR experiences of Him. While expanding Christ out not only to the Cosmos but also within and through all of humanity I find a boundless Christ that can not fit into any single religion. Yet it is a cosmic force that nicely fits in to the Heart of man, regardless of their spiritual beliefs.

.

I so much wish you would not give up the label "Christian" to describe yourself. Your understanding is indeed what Christ showed and taught about the Kingdom. The label "Christian" fits you aptly, most who call themselves that today are in fact operating at the Mosaic or even Abrahamic levels of consciousness. Not that those are bad - but the uniquely Christian understanding is that of seeing God in everything in the way that you do.

You are in a position to teach other Christians who are ready how to take flight into the mystic realms of the spirit, and calling yourself a Christian would help with that goal. You could also show how a Christian could love Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and not think you have to convert them, or that they are misled by Satan, and destined to burn in hell.