Obedience

[dlamberth]

What about Satan, do you find him a god? If so the god of what? He aspired to be equal with the one and only true God, but are you so much an unbeliever that you don't know of Satan?

Something I just don't understand is how a person can say that they serve Christ yet at the same time have Satan in their reality. To my way of thinking, that IS serving 2 God's.

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[Gibs]

Well I see you don't have the God that Gave me His Word and the prophecies of that Word alone prove without doubt that He is the one and only true God.

Then that Word reveals to me why we are not in paradise is because a great deceiver, Satan, the highest angel in Heaven got uplifted in himself and thought to wrest the rule of Heaven from His own Righteous Creator and so there was war and He and the angels that were with Him were cast to our earth and now Satan since overcoming Adam who was the earth's king under God, usurped that position and so now we live under his tyrannical rule, he is stated by the Word to now be the king of this world.

It soon now is to end since Christ overcame Him and so the time is coming all that have run with Satan of men and angels will be dissolved for all eternity to never be no more!

You better pick up that wonderful True Word of God and learn more than can be learned in all the schools of earth.

Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[dlamberth]

Well I see you don't have the God that Gave me His Word and the prophecies of that Word alone prove without doubt that He is the one and only true God.

I know what your saying, but I'm just not able to put God into a box and limit Him. He's way too big for any single religion. The proof of that for myself is in seeing how alive God is with in others of other spiritual paths. So where you see Truth in your path, others also see Truth in their spiritual path. I think a person needs to get past all of the outer beliefs and dogma and get right down to where God becomes alive for themselves and others in order to see that we all worship the same Beloved God. Different forms but the same Truth.

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[Gibs]

That is just it, you hit on it, that there is none close to His Greatness. So to worship any other God He will not tolerate.

For any one of His Created Creatures to worship anything but Him is not tolerated, we are His and no others. Besides there is no other God, all that claim so are false.

Ex 34:13 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[dlamberth]

You better pick up that wonderful True Word of God and learn more than can be learned in all the schools of earth.

Just a bit more to add... I've been freed from those images of Sin and of a Judgmental God who stands at the ready to send His own Creation to Hell. I could never go back to that.

I find the True Word of God with in life itself, in the laughter of children, in the heart felt pain and suffering of the poor and those in need, in the tender Love I see of a mother cradling her new born child, in my love and compassion for my wife and family, in the wonderment I feel when I come across a mountain meadow full of spring flowers (I've done a fair amount of mountain climbing) and even in my back yard garden with the birds chirping and squirrels jumping about in the trees and my bee's bringing in the nectar and in the new garden shoots popping up in the spring. I learn more from these things in God than I ever did back in my Bible days...way, way more. For myself, this is a direct witness to the ONLY Holy Scripture that God wrote directly with His own hands.

Nope, I'll never go back to a judgmental God as I now know and worship the God of Love, Harmony and Beauty.

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[dlamberth]

That is just it, you hit on it, that there is none close to His Greatness.

Your not getting what I'm pointing towards...I see and witness His Greatness with in His own Creation. God is very much alive for me...even so much so that He is my absolute reality.

What's your reality? Where do you see Christ?

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[Gibs]

What is His name? My God has a name.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[dlamberth]

What is His name?.

Love, Harmony and Beauty.

Of Love is born Harmony. And from Harmony comes Beauty.

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[smaneck]

Then that Word reveals to me why we are not in paradise is because a great deceiver, Satan, the highest angel in Heaven got uplifted in himself and thought to wrest the rule of Heaven from His own Righteous Creator and so there was war and He and the angels that were with Him were cast to our earth and now Satan since overcoming Adam who was the earth's king under God, usurped that position and so now we live under his tyrannical rule, he is stated by the Word to now be the king of this world.

Okay, I know where Jesus refers to Satan as the Prince of this World but where is the rest of this to be found? Where, for instance, is Satan referred to as the 'highest angel in Heaven'?

 

[dlamberth]

... so now we live under his tyrannical rule,.

Not I.

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[Gibs]

For one thing his name was Lucifer and then you could read Eze 28:

 

[Gibs]

Ok, - Ps 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

Now only will there be unity and harmony not only with Him but among ourselves until we have His Spirit of truth in us, the Same Spirit that the Holy Word was breathed by.

Without the one and same Spirit in us when partaking of His Holy Word will one ever be in unity and harmony with God or among us.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[smaneck]

For one thing his name was Lucifer and then you could read Eze 28:

Ezekiel 28 is a reference to the King of Tyre. It doesn't say anything about Lucifer. Lucifer is mentioned in Isaiah 14 but it is a reference to the King of Babylon.

 

[dlamberth]

Without the one and same Spirit in us when partaking of His Holy Word will one ever be in unity and harmony with God or among us.

For unity and harmony among us I think it will only take a little bit of Love, Compassion, Forgiveness and Service to those in need...that's all. That IS the same Spirit when we all partake in those kinds of heart centered actions. No belief involved, no dogma, no One True Wayism...just Love.

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[Jane_the_Bane]

Ezekiel 28 is a reference to the King of Tyre. It doesn't say anything about Lucifer. Lucifer is mentioned in Isaiah 14 but it is a reference to the King of Babylon.

What's more, "Lucifer" is a Latin translation of the Hebrew "Helel" ("star of morning"), a honorific title that the Bible also gives to Jesus in the Revelation of John. (Or rather, the Greek equivalent, heosphoros, which was also the septuagint's translation of Helel.)

 

[smaneck]

What's more, "Lucifer" is a Latin translation of the Hebrew "Helel" ("star of morning"), a honorific title that the Bible also gives to Jesus in the Revelation of John. (Or rather, the Greek equivalent, heosphoros, which was also the septuagint's translation of Helel.)

Yes, but I think in the context of Isaiah, the king was likely claiming to be the god of the morning star, i.e. the planet Venus.

 

[Gibs]

dlamberth, wonder just one thing about you and that is we know all of us have sinned and need a Saviour.

So who did you go to for your substitute in your place to atone for the sins that you have committed.

The penalty for sin is death and requires your death unless you have found one for the propitiation for them.

The only one and way that is known is by Jesus Christ and the way made for remission of our sins.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[dlamberth]

dlamberth, wonder just one thing about you and that is we know all of us have sinned and need a Saviour.

I'm no longer a Christian, so any more I tend to look at things completely different than you.

For instance, that image of Sin and Punishment that you're talking about is not at all in my awareness now days. I've been completely freed from those kinds of things. As an example, when I sit in the Heart of Christ I'm unable to find anything like what you're talking about. As for a Savior, if any person opens my soul to the Divine presence of God, who ever they are, they are very much a Savior to me. Along those same lines I find my Savior in most everyone I know, for I see God in everyone. I see every soul is an activity of God, that's the reality I live in. Using Christian words...Christ is everywhere one looks.

So who did you go to for your substitute in your place to atone for the sins that you have committed.

What you're talking about has no place in my spiritual path. In fact I find ones concern for atonement somewhat self centered. I tend to turn it around and see who I can help and serve. When done with Love, God is made alive with in both my life and the person who is being helped. And to me that's what important here, not my salvation. I see salvation, what ever that is as God's stuff, not my stuff.

The penalty for sin is death and requires your death unless you have found one for the propitiation for them.

I know that's your belief, but that's not at all what I experience in God, so those ideas that you present are not in any way in my spiritual radar. In fact, hopefully your getting the understanding that I find those the images of Sin and Judgment are not even needed for one to know and live in the presence of God. The only thing I find those images of Sin and of a Judgmental God are needed for is to define a religion, that's all. To be honest, I even feel that society needs to be freed of those old images and realize that what's going on is a spiritual awakening of the Human species. And that's done through Love, Compassion, Forgiveness and Service to those in need. Which by the way is what I understand as the central teachings of Jesus Christ.

The only one and way that is known is by Jesus Christ and the way made for remission of our sins.

As I pointed out, remission of sins has no place in my Love for my Beloved God. To take it even further, I feel it just one more thing that gets into the way of the presence of God in my life.

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[Zoness]

I went to Catholic Church today with my Mom, out of respect for her, even though its been many a year since I can say I've believed in Catholicism. The center of the message was that "family" was the unit that held society together. As long as families were stable then society could be stable. Of course, gay couples, infertile couples etc. don't seem to count but that's another topic.

It seems to me that the idea was that if everyone had a "family" they would be too busy to oppose systems of government, business or religion. After all, you need to take care of your family. You do not have time for such critical thoughts. You must work and provide. Keep your head down and everything will be alright if you let the governments and churches drive.

Of course that may not have been his intent and I tend to read into such things but it seems like a logical idea to me. How else would you have held Europe together for centuries? If people were focused on their families, they didn't have time to challenge the status quo and they had something to lose in case those systems fought back.

The idea is here a rigid structure of obedience. Children obey mothers (and fathers by extension), mothers obey fathers (that's the natural order according to Christianity, at least) and fathers obey the church which sets the rules for everything. When this order is broken, the system at the top is undermined and thus fights against innovation in social structures.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Your observation is correct, Zoness:

for many centuries, the hierarchical structure of European society was conceived as part of a Divine Order that encompassed the heavens and the earth. A serf was supposed to be below a nobleman just as surely as a rabbit was supposed to be below a hawk - and if a rabbit ever assailed a hawk, that would be a crime against nature, a perversion of the natural order. (You can actually find traces of this in various Shakespearean dramas, such as Othello or Macbeth, where such "omens" are used to signify a violation of the Divine Order.)

To this day, Catholic ethics are built around a concept called "natural law", asserting that what Catholicism teaches is not a cultural construct, but a representation of Nature-as-it-should-be, with any deviations representing "unnatural" acts that violate the intended order of things.
It's a common argument brought up in defense of any given status quo: just define the way-things-are as "natural", and any change would fly straight in the face of reason. Over the centuries, it has been used to condemn (among others) the abolition of serfdom, the abolition of slavery, democracy replacing feudalism or the monarchy, female emancipation, interracial marriage, and, most recently, same-sex relationships.