Obedience

[smaneck]

The hadiths during the time of the 12 Imams and after, also, have that fallible clergy class that is blindly trusted. Even during times of Imams, there were many fabricators, according to shiites, who would attribute hadiths to the 12 Imams.

I agree, but had the authority of the Imams been accepted it is likely their line would have continued and the clerics would not have gained so much power.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I agree, but had the authority of the Imams been accepted it is likely their line would have continued and the clerics would not have gained so much power.

But people gaining power over other people (by attributing their decrees and/or their exalted status to a divine being) is a very basic part of the problem. Reading the Qur'an, I do not see the timeless wisdom of a divine being. I see the pragmatic (and, for that time, quite progressive) common sense I'd expect in a shrewd merchant with lots of experience.

 

[smaneck]

But people gaining power over other people (by attributing their decrees and/or their exalted status to a divine being) is a very basic part of the problem.

That is because you reject the notion of revelation period.

 

[Gibs]

One must obey God over men even if it does mean death of this poor old body we are in.

No righteous man or woman will rule against God, but we do have unrighteous in high places and more all the time.

1Jo 4: ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[smaneck]

One must obey God over men even if it does mean death of this poor old body we are in.

Obeying God to our own death is one thing. But what if it means causing someone else's death? I think we all have a responsibility to ask ourselves "Is this really from God?"

 

[stevenfrancis]

I have written some posts about authoritarianism before (in short: I consider it extremely detrimental to personal growth as well as highly immoral and dangerous), but today, I'd like to explore the sociological and - if you will - metaphysical angle of obedience as a supposed spiritual virtue.

Looking at most religions throughout history, you'll find that the concept of order is exceptionally important. Preservation of the status quo (and thus, the established social order) is of utmost importance: obey your parents, follow the traditions and rules you've been taught, don't second-guess your superiors.

From the point-of-view of those who'd create societies that encompass more than a clan or a village, such an ideal certainly makes sense: you get people to behave, to operate as a unit rather than individual parts embracing an agenda entirely their own. Where a single straw might break, a hundred will be nearly indestructible, united by a single, guiding purpose.
This is why monarchies and similarly stratified societies were such a hugely popular model between the agrarian and industrial revolution: nobody wants to be a lowly serf - but once they believe that it is their designated place within the larger order of things, they might more readily accept such a underprivileged position.
As problematic as such models of society may be from the vantage point of democratic ideals (and the historical hindsight provided by the horrors of various fascist regimes), they most certainly work - at least in pre-industrial cultures.


From a metaphysical perspective, however, the concept of a cosmic order strikes me as highly problematic: while some might find comfort in the notion that some superior being has alotted them a certain position in the Greater Scheme of things, and even go so far as to feel that without such a concept, their life would be essentially meaningless, I consider it an almost dystopian form of determinism.
It essentially negates any concept of liberty, turning us into willing (or unwilling) slaves of a cosmic machine - cogs within a Great Plan whose only chance at escaping from their designated position is to break - and be thrown upon the trash heap, suffering for their failure to work.

This is an interesting post. Certainly food for thought. Is that your intent? I didn't see a question in here. It reads more like a statement, or an article. If you're indeed inviting or looking at any feedback, I would only offer that true Christian doctrine, (this being a Christian web site) seems to fly in the face of this in SOME aspects. We ARE to be obedient and humble to authority, and finding our happiness in Christ, prevailing over our external surroundings in heart and soul. Only raising a fuss, if asked to perform acts which violate the rightly formed, God given conscience. Rebelling only when authority asks us to violate the Christian commandments to love God, and love Neighbor. Or when told to perform blasphemy, idolatry, immorality, etc.. If simply put under authority and told to do our work, then we should just do our work, and remain happy in Christ. The "happy slave" I read in your signature or post which is such a problem for "liberty".

You've brought up some very interesting ideas to think about, (or in my case think about AND study, since I am ignorant of so many aspects of earthly psychology, and even more so on governmental systems, etc.. I guess the thing I keep thinking is that earth in its current form is not paradise, and will not be made so by man. It is not in man's skill set to form utopia. We just dream it. I've read various versions of it, and it seems that one persons utopia is another's hell on earth. This is why Christians live towards a different end. We, are promised a home of our own at the end of this brief temporal life. If we can be a part of making something better, then count us in. We're not mindless. But if our lot IS some kind of oppression, and we are not being asked to violate God's laws or our God given conscience, then we are in fact supposed to obey earthly authority. But, at the same time, to not hide our light, and our happiness in Christ, even while being oppressed. But at the same time, if asked to deny God. (when working us to death is not enough to satisfy the beast), then we must never give in to the evil we are asked to do, and as an alternative, we offer our very lives up rather than to actually violate our love of God or neighbor. When something meets the criteria of Christian disobedience, then we are indeed supposed to be given the strength and will from God to go "all in", and let them kill us rather than do their evil.

"Fear not those who can only kill the body".

Lot's to think about here, and study scripture about. Very interesting topic. Thank you for posting it.

 

[Gibs]

smaneck, you will need to give me an example of how me being obedient to God to my death that would mean the death of someone else.

Many men died up through the dark ages for their faith and would not buckle to the tyranny. I don't know of a case where one caused the death of another unless he too was another that would not buckle in. Then he too was Martyred of his own stand.

The mark of the beast is coming and I will not take it but all that buckle in will not face the death penalty.

Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Gracelands]

One must obey God over men even if it does mean death of this poor old body we are in.

No righteous man or woman will rule against God, but we do have unrighteous in high places and more all the time.

1Jo 4: ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Needed that thanks Gibs! Especially the verse.

lol sorry random little interjection there.

 

[Supreme]

Jesus was completely against the status quo; in fact, He is the world's most influential revolutionary. Jesus was against the earthly authorities and the leaders of the world despised Him and put Him to death.

I also think Christianity is, at its core, about love, not obedience- hence you won't find the sort of legalistic nonsense that plagues so many other world religions.

 

[Gibs]

All must know that True obedience only comes from the service of love.

Did Satan render obedience? No! Did he love God? No. He didn't think God was Good and Love and set out to prove he knew good and love better. How much more do we want of his good and love? I say pitch him and let us know God who is Good and Love.

Ro 13:10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

That is because you reject the notion of revelation period.

Of course - but in the end, how do you differentiate between a "genuine" divine revelation and one that is not so?

I do not dismiss the concept as such out of hand - yet I've never seen a single piece of scripture that could convince me of a literally divine author behind it.

Personally, I find glimpses of what you might call "inspiration" in many venerated (and quite a few mundane) texts mankind has composed over the ages, and I'm even open to the concept that most religions started out with a moment of genuine, transcendent insight.
Yet divinely authored texts? I've yet to see one, especially if we define deity as a literal, personal entity who is all-knowing, timeless and infinitely wise.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Eh, Jane, that would make your reasoning circular.

It's best to say, you reject revelation on different reasons. One due it not impressing you much and appearing man made, another might be problems you find in them, another might be the authority problem you have with it etc.

If you start saying one reason is because of the other, then the reason has no grounding on it's own. Which I don't believe is the case.

 

[Gibs]

Jane, here is a divinely authored one and really I know of none that are not.

You see I know my God is great enough that He is well able to keep His Word to us as He wants it,

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

God is a Spirit and so He is every where and can dwell in you.

Now we must have that same indwelling Spirit as that Word was breathed to by the Prophets who wrote out His Holy Word to us.

If we don't then we do not value it as His Word and it means very little to us and most go on making of it what they want it to say. Take note of the many theologies of men!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Gracelands]

With respect Supreme I don't agree with you there. Jesus wasn't legalistic but the gospels teachings are about justice and mercy or Grace and law in perfect balance.

 

[Gibs]

The law and the true gospel are intertwined! One can not have one without the other.

The truth of it is wonderful and salvation to us, and yes a perfect balance.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here are two problems with that particular verse:
1. It is highly doubtful that this epistle was authored by Paul. Its language as well as the ideas communicated therein differ markedly from the authentic Pauline letters.
2. Even if we pretend that it was NOT pseudepigraphical, the author is still talking about the Tanakh, NOT the Bible as you know it today.
Why? Because a) it's a reply to the question of whether the Jewish scriptures ought to be discarded along with other notably Jewish elements such as circumcision or the particulars of Mosaic law, and b) the New Testament did not exist when this reply was supposedly sent to Timothy.

 

[Gibs]

Jane, since scripture is no value to you and you hold your opinion of the things you find written of men to make your see of things.

I would suggest that Scripture is far out and above all writings. It is the anvil for you to test all other things to as to what is truth.

Do you not know that truth only comes from the High and Holy one and His Word to us?

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Ps 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[dlamberth]

I do not dismiss the concept as such out of hand - yet I've never seen a single piece of scripture that could convince me of a literally divine author behind it.

Most don't get it, but the ONLY Holy scripture that I've come across that has been literally divinely authored can only be found in life/creation itself. Everything else has passed through the hands of man.

.

 

[Gibs]

diamberth, then to you who alone is the one and only true God? Then from where do you get your idea?

Would there not be immediate war if there were more than one God? What about Satan, do you find him a god? If so the god of what? He aspired to be equal with the one and only true God, but are you so much an unbeliever that you don't know of Satan?

Just curious.

1 Jo 4L4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[dlamberth]

diamberth, then to you who alone is the one and only true God? Then from where do you get your idea?

There's only one Truth and force running through all of Creation. As a Christian, for you I'd go to Christ to find it. American Indians have their way of finding the same Truth as do Hindu's, Muslims, Baha'i, Jews, Zoroastrians and everyone else on this earth. Love, Compassion and Service is how God is made alive, today, where He is needed the most.

Would there not be immediate war if there were more than one God?

"IF" we lived in the heart of our various spiritual paths I firmly believe that there would be no war. Instead, we live in the outer "beliefs" and "dogma" for our relationship with God and that's where separation, hate and fighting and yes, war come into play.

What about Satan, do you find him a god?

Satan does not exist...only God exist. God is the ONLY reality for this lover of God...Period!!

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