Obedience

[Jane_the_Bane]

I have written some posts about authoritarianism before (in short: I consider it extremely detrimental to personal growth as well as highly immoral and dangerous), but today, I'd like to explore the sociological and - if you will - metaphysical angle of obedience as a supposed spiritual virtue.

Looking at most religions throughout history, you'll find that the concept of order is exceptionally important. Preservation of the status quo (and thus, the established social order) is of utmost importance: obey your parents, follow the traditions and rules you've been taught, don't second-guess your superiors.

From the point-of-view of those who'd create societies that encompass more than a clan or a village, such an ideal certainly makes sense: you get people to behave, to operate as a unit rather than individual parts embracing an agenda entirely their own. Where a single straw might break, a hundred will be nearly indestructible, united by a single, guiding purpose.
This is why monarchies and similarly stratified societies were such a hugely popular model between the agrarian and industrial revolution: nobody wants to be a lowly serf - but once they believe that it is their designated place within the larger order of things, they might more readily accept such a underprivileged position.
As problematic as such models of society may be from the vantage point of democratic ideals (and the historical hindsight provided by the horrors of various fascist regimes), they most certainly work - at least in pre-industrial cultures.


From a metaphysical perspective, however, the concept of a cosmic order strikes me as highly problematic: while some might find comfort in the notion that some superior being has alotted them a certain position in the Greater Scheme of things, and even go so far as to feel that without such a concept, their life would be essentially meaningless, I consider it an almost dystopian form of determinism.
It essentially negates any concept of liberty, turning us into willing (or unwilling) slaves of a cosmic machine - cogs within a Great Plan whose only chance at escaping from their designated position is to break - and be thrown upon the trash heap, suffering for their failure to work.

 

[seashale76]

I've found that a lot of people confuse authoritative with authoritarian.

 

[smaneck]

I've found that a lot of people confuse authoritative with authoritarian.

Exactly. To the extent that any religion considers itself 'revealed' it is going to have some notion of authority.

 

[dlamberth]

From a metaphysical perspective, however, the concept of a cosmic order strikes me as highly problematic: while some might find comfort in the notion that some superior being has alotted them a certain position in the Greater Scheme of things, and even go so far as to feel that without such a concept, their life would be essentially meaningless, I consider it an almost dystopian form of determinism.

Metaphysically, your presenting a different image of "cosmic order" than my understanding. And that's where you lost me. I think that's because I see the world (both the seen an unseen) through the lens of a Panentheist where the cosmic order has nothing to do with the images you described.

If there is a greater scheme of things or a cosmic order I think it has more to do with life being aware of itself more than anything else. And from the metaphysical perspective, that would also include an awareness of spiritual realms as well. It's all part of the whole.

Human Beings have the capacity to be more open to the awareness of both the physical and spiritual aspects of life. The mystics point towards having one foot in this world and the other foot in the next. I think that capacity for human beings is part of the cosmic plan.That does not make Human Beings slaves or even better than any other aspect of this creation. Absolutely not. There is a wholeness in creation, and we are a part of that wholeness. No part of creation is above itself or separate from itself or even a slave to itself, we are all a part of it in Oneness.

.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I don't think we can escape authority of God. This is because his command lives within us, and he is the blessed companion in the light/fire who speaks through the blessed tree that guides all his creation. However, I think obeying his command out of love of goodness/honor/light/god would make us free instead of simply out of greed of a reward or fear of punishment.

I don't think God can be compared to creation, as such servitude towards the Master of the universe cannot be compared to servitude towards other beings than him. It's a rather a favor.

 

[Gibs]

The only obedience that will make the grade with God and is not galling in any way can only come from loving Him above all and our fellow man as ourselves.

No one can please God unless we love Him supremely. How can we not, when our Heavenly Father gave all that Heaven could bestow plus giving to us His one and only Beloved begotten Son.

Our Father came in Him in all fullness as He is Spirit and suffered as keenly as did our Saviour Jesus Christ.

I ask how can you not love Him who first showed us His Great Love for us and with all your heart and soul?

Has His great Love for you not awakened and instilled love in you to help and bless your fellow man in any need you see he may have.

So I ask how can we not want to please Him and do His entire will? Has not His Law of love now become your love too? Really that is what it is, a law of love. Do not we do what we love to do without galling?

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Arthra]

Jane wrote above:

"It essentially negates any concept of liberty, turning us into willing (or unwilling) slaves of a cosmic machine - cogs within a Great Plan whose only chance at escaping from their designated position is to break - and be thrown upon the trash heap, suffering for their failure to work."

While I would agree with your conclusion particularly when it relates to determinism or predestination.. It also follows that a study of religion will also allow for freewill and choice.

 

[Gibs]

Well then it boils down to, will we or will we not out of love be obedient? Yes it will take true love and out of love obedience is a pleasure!

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I'd contest the notion that obedience can ever be a value-in-itself, at least from the perspective of a post-Enlightenment, democratic individualism.

I'd agree that it can be an advisable and necessary notion in some cases, and that coupled with loving trust that is not misplaced (or "faith", if you will), it might even lead to new insights. In some cases, somebody else does know better or best. In some cases, there is no time for discussion and explanations.
However, what most religions (and even quite a few secular world views) have created is a system that is geared in every conceivable way towards preserving a certain status quo: by discouraging critical thought, encouraging unquestioning conformity, penalizing/demonizing dissent, etc.

 

[smaneck]

I'd contest the notion that obedience can ever be a value-in-itself, at least from the perspective of a post-Enlightenment, democratic individualism.

One is never obedience always occurs in relationship, not by itself. As for the post-Enlightenment perspective, as we all know the Enlightenment was explicitly anti-Christian.

I think the real issue here is what ought to be the proper relationship between authority and freedom, between revelation and reason?

It seems to me that we use our reason and freedom to examine and evaluate claims to authority or revelation. It isn't a matter of discarding one for the other.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Eh...I agree with what you said now. But religion and cosmic order are two different things:

The concept of a cosmic order strikes me as highly problematic: while some might find comfort in the notion that some superior being has alotted them a certain position in the Greater Scheme of things, and even go so far as to feel that without such a concept, their life would be essentially meaningless, I consider it an almost dystopian form of determinism.
It essentially negates any concept of liberty, turning us into willing (or unwilling) slaves of a cosmic machine - cogs within a Great Plan whose only chance at escaping from their designated position is to break - and be thrown upon the trash heap, suffering for their failure to work.


If ye no want to serve the light,what ye want to serve, the darkness (precious?)?

 

[AskTheFamily]

It seems to me that we use our reason and freedom to examine and evaluate claims to authority or revelation. It isn't a matter of discarding one for the other.

The Quran has repeated:

Will they not reflect?
Will they not ponder?
Will they not use reason?
Will they not understand?
Will they not see?
Will they not hear?
Will they not remember?

BUT........in midst of all this, how many verses promises those who reject, hell-fire?

Ultimately, it doesn't force us to make a decision, and it claims to want us to make one based on knowledge and insight, and not to follow what he have no knowledge of....but the way people disbelieving in the religion would be treated....for example, not being able to marry Muslims...etc....makes this freedom of choice a very hard choice.

It makes being bias and conforming to the state of society and not challenging the current state much easier to do.

Essentially, no religion is going to say, don't ponder and question and reflect, but it will say the opposite, to reflect, ponder, and question........but at the same time if you come to wrong conclusions, there tends to be consequences among these cultures.

 

[smaneck]

BUT........in midst of all this, how many verses promises those who reject, hell-fire?

True, but one of the major characteristics of those who reject is "We found our fathers following a religion . . . "

In other words, they didn't ponder, reflect, etc. they merely practiced taqlid or blind imitation.

 

[dlamberth]

........but at the same time if you come to wrong conclusions, there tends to be consequences among these cultures.

...but not necessary with God. And there in lies the rub, we tend to confuse our religion as being of God.

.

 

[AskTheFamily]

The issue is Islam teaches total submission to the Prophets. It doesn't teach to see the truth of the laws and their applicability yourself.

This makes is inevitable that the Sunnah would not be taught on insight and knowledge, but rather passed down based on memorization. This made a scholar class/priest class inevitable.

All this is part of authority that people are bound to come towards if they want to follow the Prophet. At the same time, it becomes inevitable, that part of what is going to be passed down will be fabrications, as such, we will be following man made rules along side God's rules.

This is the case in Islam. It emphasizes so much on following the Sunnah of the Nabi but at the same time, everyone knows deep inside hadiths are littered with fabrications, even ones deemed authentic by scholars.

If Islam was all about freeing people from blind imitation, it was really bad it, because the way it passed on the Sunnah made it inevitable that blind trust in authority would be the only means to the Sunnah.

 

[prov1810]

This is why monarchies and similarly stratified societies were such a hugely popular model between the agrarian and industrial revolution: nobody wants to be a lowly serf - but once they believe that it is their designated place within the larger order of things, they might more readily accept such a underprivileged position.

There is another option. Instead of believing in the system or fighting against it, one simply disregards it. I think the Stoics understood the most important thing: it's our destructive emotions, anger and envy and fear, that oppress us. So freedom is not brought about by external changes in material conditions, through technology or politics or economics, but rather in the profound interiority of the sage.

 

[AskTheFamily]

...but not necessary with God. And there in lies the rub, we tend to confuse our religion as being of God.

.

True said.

 

[Gibs]

It is best to not worry one fraction about religion and follow Jesus Christ and His Word and be led of His Spirit of truth, which these days is a most precious gem!

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[smaneck]

This is the case in Islam. It emphasizes so much on following the Sunnah of the Nabi but at the same time, everyone knows deep inside hadiths are littered with fabrications, even ones deemed authentic by scholars.

I agree.

If Islam was all about freeing people from blind imitation, it was really bad it, because the way it passed on the Sunnah made it inevitable that blind trust in authority would be the only means to the Sunnah.

Well, if you are a Shi'ite you know the Prophet never said "the Book and the Sunnah" He said "the Book and My Family." Unfortunately the Prophet's wishes were ignored and Islam became corrupted as a result.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Well, if you are a Shi'ite you know the Prophet never said "the Book and the Sunnah" He said "the Book and My Family." Unfortunately the Prophet's wishes were ignored and Islam became corrupted as a result.

The hadiths during the time of the 12 Imams and after, also, have that fallible clergy class that is blindly trusted. Even during times of Imams, there were many fabricators, according to shiites, who would attribute hadiths to the 12 Imams.

If this is the case, than it remains bad at it even in the Shiite version.

The Imams also could have made their followers copy the books they had (ie. the book containing the whole Shariah for example) in abundance such that it would not have a chance of being corrupted.

But instead what is reported of them is they narrated hadiths, and hence, the system inherited by Shiites was very similar to that of the Sunnis.