Obedience for Obedience' Sake

[Tree of Life]

I am very familiar with the definitions, and my comment stands as it is. We are saved to grow into a new but restored humanity. Our integrity as a human being is essential to that. There are no double-minded souls in heaven.

People that "obey" but they only obey while repressing deep conflicts in their psyche have built a house on shifting sand. When they depart this world they are going to be in for some surprises. Perhaps not all pleasant.

What am I saying in all this? Be sober and sane. There is a place for mindfulness and introspection in the Christian life, and recognition that God wants us to be something more than religious robots.

Do you think I'm denying this?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

even if our hearts are not in it. The most mature expression of obedience is certainly a joyful obedience from the heart. But we ought to obey God simply because he is God - even when we don't want to.

When we are whole-heartedly serving Yahweh Creator Sovereign Giver of LIfe,
we rejoice to delight in Him and in His Word and in willing obedience to every Word of His,
like little children trusting and relying on Him for every breath, EAGER and DELIGHTED to instantly DO all that HE SAYS (as Jesus says to be).

 

[Soyeong]

Obedience is not the same thing as agreement.

Once when I was active duty, I was engaged in conversation with our unit chaplain, an Orthodox rabbi. I started to mention how the dietary rules of the Mosaic Law made sense, but he immediately cut me short: "We don't obey God because it makes sense; we obey God because He is God."

The Jewish community has noted the statues of the Mosaic Law that "make sense" and those that don't "make sense." Those that don't "make sense" are called the chukkim.

I think many of God's laws invite us to ponder why God commanded them and what God trying to teach us about Himself by commanding them, but at the end of the day, if a command still doesn't make any sense to us, then becomes a matter of whether we are still going to have faith in God to guide us to walk in His ways in spite of that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The Lord commands that we become members of his church whether or not we feel like it.

That's interesting, can you please post the scripture behind it, so I can see it in context?

We don't obey to be saved. We obey BECAUSE we are saved.

Nevervmind on my last question, I do and did understand you perfectly.

 

[Enoch27]

What inspired this thread was a conversation with a friend. He's a professing believer but he does not go to church. Why not? He doesn't want to right now and doesn't think that duty for duty's sake is something that Scripture promotes. He doesn't think it would be right to perform this act until his heart is in it. I think that's hogwarsh. The Lord commands that we become members of his church whether or not we feel like it. There is a place for mere obedience in the Christian life, even though this is not the ideal.

Fellowship with other christians is always good, the nature this fellowship takes is under the divine will of God over that individual, I will not be so quick as to judge what only God can make clear. I will however say that I have known Christian families who have remained out of the church for long periods of time whilst mainting their faith and when they rejoined a church it was because it felt natural and good with God.

 

[Almost there]

By "obedience for obedience' sake" I mean that the fact that God has commanded something is reason enough for us to do it - even if our hearts are not in it.

With that definition, I FIRMLY agree with that statement. There is a reason the bible talks about self control. If you simply want to do exactly what is right all the time, you need no self control. Paul talked to this subject in romans 7: Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:15-20 - New International Version

 

[Kenny'sID]

The last line of my last post may explain it: We don't obey to be saved. We obey BECAUSE we are saved.

But if we don't obey/live in sin, we are still saved?

 

[Almost there]

Nevervmind on my last question, I do and did understand you perfectly.

Then I understand you better as well.

 

[Almost there]

But is we don't obey/live in sin, we are still saved?

What do you mean by "live in sin"?

Judge a tree by its fruit. What made Abraham righteous was his belief, not his obedience. His obedience was simply a result of his belief - and it was a very difficult thing for him to do.

Speaking of doing the right thing being difficult. Jesus not only asked that the "cup" be taken from him, but he sweat blood. Sounds stressful.

 

[Kenny'sID]

integrity

redefine it if you insist, integrity is not "soul" and all your words do not make it that.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you think I'm denying this?

Not necessarily, but what you stated should be qualified.

I used to belong to a church where I encountered too many whose struggle or asceticism seemed to only extend to petty matters like how often they prayed or whether they ate cheese during Great Lent. To top it off, then they turned around and judged their brothers and sisters who delved into weightier matters because they weren't with the religious robot programming.

 

[aiki]

I agree that true obedience is from the heart. But many times our hearts are not "in it". My point is that, in these instances, this does not justify utter disobedience. Even when we don't want to obey God we still ought to obey God.

There is, as far as God is concerned, only one sort of "true obedience." That is obedience that arises from obedience to the First and Great Commandment. Any other obedience, as Scripture makes clear, is spiritually useless and garners no eternal reward. As Christ pointed out, it is a very dangerous thing to get in the habit of loveless obedience. We can get busy doing all sorts of things for God - miracles and exorcisms even - and find ourselves strangers to Christ at the Final Judgment. And, really, obedience to God that does not arise from the keeping of the First and Great Commandment is actually disobedience.

 

[FireDragon76]

So, we can/should do what makes us feel as though we are perfectly free? Or do as we like if obedience does not make us feel free?

It is important to have a well-formed conscience and to follow that conscience. A well-formed conscience is not just about slavish obedience to authority figures, even to God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What do you mean by "live in sin"?

I mean to continue in sin/the things that are in the scripture I quoted without remorse/repentance. Or not being obedient as God/Christ expects/made it clear we should be.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Judge a tree by its fruit. What made Abraham righteous was his belief, not his obedience.

Please quote the scripture that insinuates that from the KJV, but I would read it carefully first, forgetting all you were taught to get from it, if you can.

 

[RDKirk]

Well, it is. Not once do you see such obedience urged in the New Testament. The believer's obedience is always to be arising out of his/her love for God.

Jesus defines love for God as obedience. So is it love for love's sake, or love only because we're getting something?

Neither love nor obedience should be given because we expect reciprocation. Even sinners do that.

 

[FireDragon76]

As Christ pointed out, it is a very dangerous thing to get in the habit of loveless obedience. We can get busy doing all sorts of things for God - miracles and exorcisms even - and find ourselves strangers to Christ at the Final Judgment.

Exactly. Otherwise you have just become a religious robot, or more properly, a religious android. A robot is a nothing, it has no life in it, only a semblance of life. True obedience must involve listening to God's call in your life. And that's going to be unique to you, and involve introspection and an acknowledgement of personal desire. Some ways of being Christian are intensely uncomfortable with desire and they suppress it.

Even Timothy Keller pointed in one of his books I read years ago, that we should be careful in being overly hasty to condemn sin, that we don't pay attention to our desires and what they are telling us.

 

[RDKirk]

It's at best its a joyless obedience, not the christian ideal. And one fraught with the danger of losing ones integrity as a human being.

Why would it be joyless "at best?"

When I was active duty, I got a charge out of being able to say at the end of the day, "I did my duty." It was the same as a football player being able to say at the end of the game (whether the team won or lost), "I made all my tackles."

 

[RDKirk]

Obediance for obediance sake is ridiculous. Obeidiance for God's sake should be the hearts desire of every christian.

That doesn't mean anything. God doesn't actually need anything we do, so we can't do anything for His "sake."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you simply want to do exactly what is right all the time, you need no self control.

People without self control, by God's Grace a Gift with Jesus in Salvation,
cannot do what is right.