Obedience for Obedience' Sake

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes. We are to obey His commandments. It doesn't speak of perfect obedience, however. Frankly, if that is the message of the bible, I give up, because I can't do it.

Relax in Jesus, yet also realize that perfect as translated and used may be entirely wrong in english speaking people.
Jesus told the truth, always, as also His Father always does.
"You must be holy(set apart), because "I AM" (Yahweh) is set apart."
"You must be PERFECT, because your heavenly Father is PERFECT."
This is accurately what Jesus and Yahweh says in SCRIPTURE,
but is usually never accurately understood.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So would you counsel my friend to not go to church until his heart was in it?

Let all and everyone seek Yahweh, (for His Kingdom is at hand, here, today)
and do as Yahweh says.

 

[Almost there]

Y

Relax in Jesus, yet also realize that perfect as translated and used may be entirely wrong in english speaking people.
Jesus told the truth, always, as also His Father always does.
"You must be holy(set apart), because "I AM" (Yahweh) is set apart."
"You must be PERFECT, because your heavenly Father is PERFECT."
This is accurately what Jesus and Yahweh says in SCRIPTURE,
but is usually never accurately understood.

Yet scripture also says we are being perfectED.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Y

Yet scripture also says we are being perfectED.

GOOD ! IT IS SO ! AMEN ! HALLELUYAH !

 

[Almost there]

"You must be PERFECT, because your heavenly Father is PERFECT."

And the only way to be perfect is to be washed in the blood which covers sin. Otherwise, we are all lost. ALL of us. If we are dependent on our own perfection to be saved, we are all doomed.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Isn't the NIV just an interpretation if the KJV, if not, exactly what is it?

I'd have to compare the scriptures. But you are essentially saying we can live in sin, because of your understanding of the NIV scripture there, even though the scripture I quoted made it clear as night and day we cannot do that?

Of course because it made so clear we cannot, I have to question the understanding or the authenticity of the NIV scripture you just quoted.

It can't be both ways so something isn't right.

To my understanding:

The NIV is produced from what's called a "critical edition" of the Greek source texts, which is basically a compilation of various copies of the Greek spliced together, where certain renderings of passages are favoured over others when the copies don't agree with each other. They usually favor the Alexandrian texts, which are the oldest NT Greek copies we have.

As opposed to the KJV, which is translated from the Textus Receptus, which has carried weight for 500 or so years, but focuses on the Byzatine texts, which are not the oldest, but have certainly been favored historically.

Wikipedia:

Textual Criticism
Textus Receptus
Categories of New Testament Manuscripts​

I'm personally not against critical editions in themselves, nor the Textus Receptus.

But from what I've seen of the NIV, with the Hebrew especially, it is closer to a paraphrase than an actual translation, meaning they interpreted what they read, or thought they were reading as the case may be. Not to be trusted, imho.

The KJV has errors, but is actually the accumulation of hundreds of years of real translation efforts, a very good Bible, especially the 1611 when it was first released, imho.

Little wonder then, that there are doctrinal issues between these two!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

(1)And the only way to be perfect is to be washed in the blood which covers sin. (2)Otherwise, we are all lost.
(3)ALL of us.
(4)If we are dependent on our own perfection to be saved, we are all doomed.

Why do you bring up points that are not even in question ?

 

[Yarddog]

There's a false teaching floating around out there in evangelicalism that obedience for obedience' sake is a bad thing. Or that duty for duty's sake is a bad thing. An example would be someone who's unwilling to go to church or read the Bible because they don't want to. And if they don't want to do it, it would be somehow bad or perhaps Pharisaical to do it just because it's the right thing to do. They suppose that until they really want to do it, it would be better to refrain from doing it entirely.

But this is a bunch of hogwarsh.

The ideal is obedience from the heart. That we love God and obey his commands because it is our heart's deepest desire. But even when we do not desire to obey God's commands we still ought to obey them. Indeed, that's what makes it obedience! When we do it even though we don't want to do it we are submitting ourselves to the Lordship of Christ.

Do any of Y'ALL subscribe to this false teaching?

Maybe a slippery slope. Doing something for the wrong reason does nothing toward salvation but some good can come out of it.

 

[Almost there]

To my understanding:

The NIV is produced from what's called a "critical edition" of the Greek source texts, which is basically a compilation of various copies of the Greek spliced together, where certain renderings of passages are favoured over others when the copies don't agree with each other. They usually favor the Alexandrian texts, which are the oldest NT Greek copies we have.

As opposed to the KJV, which is translated from the Textus Receptus, which has carried weight for 500 or so years, but focuses on the Byzatine texts, which are not the oldest, but have certainly been favored historically.

Wikipedia:

Textual Criticism
Textus Receptus
Categories of New Testament Manuscripts​

I'm personally not against critical editions in themselves, nor the Textus Receptus.

But from what I've seen of the NIV, with the Hebrew especially, it is closer to a paraphrase than an actual translation, meaning they interpreted what they read, or thought they were reading as the case may be. Not to be trusted, imho.

The KJV has errors, but is actually the accumulation of hundreds of years of real translation efforts, a very good Bible, especially the 1611 when it was first released, imho.

Little wonder then, that there are doctrinal issues between these two!

This reminds me of a documentary I saw on Porsche. It was talking about the amazing quality of the cars they produced in the mid-50's compared to everything on the market. And they were amazing cars for their day.

STill, my 2013 FRS, even with it's stock "Prius" tires that it came with, would run circles around any of them today, and effortlessly so.

 

[Almost there]

Why do you bring up points that are not even in question ?

Sorry. Just driving it home.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Simply footnote: quik search/comparison wondering so looked up:
Performance is modest, top speed is 140 mph, 0-60 mph in 7.6 sec, but in handling terms, this car matches and arguably surpasses models such as Porsche's Cayman at twice the price.Nov 11, 2012
2014 Scion FR-S

Top speed is 165 mph and 176 mph, respectively. The choice in transmission becomes a difficult one. With the seven-speed Porsche-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (PDK), the Cayman is 66 pounds heavier than with the standard manual transmission.
2014 Porsche Cayman

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sorry. Just driving it home.

Driving which one home ? What point if any ?

 

[Almost there]

To my understanding:

The NIV is produced from what's called a "critical edition" of the Greek source texts, which is basically a compilation of various copies of the Greek spliced together, where certain renderings of passages are favoured over others when the copies don't agree with each other. They usually favor the Alexandrian texts, which are the oldest NT Greek copies we have.

As opposed to the KJV, which is translated from the Textus Receptus, which has carried weight for 500 or so years, but focuses on the Byzatine texts, which are not the oldest, but have certainly been favored historically.

Wikipedia:

Textual Criticism
Textus Receptus
Categories of New Testament Manuscripts​

I'm personally not against critical editions in themselves, nor the Textus Receptus.

But from what I've seen of the NIV, with the Hebrew especially, it is closer to a paraphrase than an actual translation, meaning they interpreted what they read, or thought they were reading as the case may be. Not to be trusted, imho.

The KJV has errors, but is actually the accumulation of hundreds of years of real translation efforts, a very good Bible, especially the 1611 when it was first released, imho.

Little wonder then, that there are doctrinal issues between these two!

One of my KJV friends a few years ago, threw up this big accusational argument regarding "why does the NIV remove some passages.

It forced me to study the issue and, based the resources I read on both "sides" of this issue, it became pretty obvious that the NIV does not remove scripture. Rather, the KJV adds it. With an exception or two...

Since I no longer see the bible as "the" word of God, I now just fall back on my signature - and prayer - anyway.

 

[Oldmantook]

What does Heb 5:9 say ? (quote it out please, it is not rendering )

Certainly - "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Maybe a slippery slope. Doing something for the wrong reason does nothing toward salvation but some good can come out of it.

What specifically do you mean ?
Remember when Yahweh's people OBEYED HIM,
but grumbled,
Yahweh PUNISHED them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Since I no longer see the bible as "the" word of God

Hopefully, yes very hopefully, this does not mean what it looks like it means.
Care to clarify ? (though realize it might be much worse then, of course as love hopes for the best, Yahweh permitting and willing, it could be much better than it looks also)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Certainly - "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"

Amen, HalleluYAH ! Yes ! (and thank you)

 

[Almost there]

Simply footnote: quik search/comparison wondering so looked up:
Performance is modest, top speed is 140 mph, 0-60 mph in 7.6 sec, but in handling terms, this car matches and arguably surpasses models such as Porsche's Cayman at twice the price.Nov 11, 2012
2014 Scion FR-S

Top speed is 165 mph and 176 mph, respectively. The choice in transmission becomes a difficult one. With the seven-speed Porsche-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (PDK), the Cayman is 66 pounds heavier than with the standard manual transmission.
2014 Porsche Cayman

For me it was price, longevity and mileage. I commute 160 miles a day on the incredible two lane twisties of Kentucky. I got a six speed manual and, using Michelin PSSs, the FRS is a slot car. With 136,000 miles on it now. and I just replaced the spark plugs for the first time last week, with no change in performance or gas mileage.

For me the car is the perfect mix of economy, acceleration, handling and overall FUN.

 

[Almost there]

Driving which one home ? What point if any ?

The point about my lack of perfection and my beliefs about it regarding the human condition.

 

[Almost there]

Hopefully, yes very hopefully, this does not mean what it looks like it means.
Care to clarify ? (though realize it might be much worse then, of course as love hopes for the best, Yahweh permitting and willing, it could be much better than it looks also)

It is really just a technicality. Since Paul himself says that his words are not from God, and those words are in the bible, if one says the bible is "the" word of God, they are including those words, which are specifically called out as NOT from God.

Plus, the letters to the churches are just that: Letters to churches. They have great wisdom in them regarding many issues near and dear to Christians, but they are letters. And even the word scripture simply means "something written down". The bible is written by men inspired by God, and many sermons are written by men inspired by God, but nobody staples their sermons to the end of their bible as "new revelation".

I take every single word in the bible very seriously, but sometimes a salutation at the end of a letter is just that. I"m not basing any theology on it. I also don't worship the bible.