Obedience for Obedience' Sake

[Almost there]

See my next post and the scripture therein, and explain how it's just my opinion and not fact...please.

Everything you posted there is right out of the bible. No doubt about it. I just disagree with what you said. I'm not a legalist. If I feel I need to start behaving better or I'll lose my salvation, I'm way off base.

On the other hand, I subscribe to 1 Cor 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. he will receive a reward. but only as through fire.

 

[Enoch27]

Obediance for obediance sake is ridiculous. Obeidiance for God's sake should be the hearts desire of every christian. If it isn't, don't worry try to do the work that you think God has set before you and if what you're doing isn't the will of God then that door will close and a new oppurtunity will present itself.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's at best its a joyless obedience, not the christian ideal. And one fraught with the danger of losing ones integrity as a human being

No one always enjoys doing what non Christians are allowed to do, and I'd much rather lose my integrity, if what you say is even the case, than lose my soul.

Just do it. God never said we'd always enjoy being obedient.

 

[FireDragon76]

Losing your integrity is losing your soul.

 

[Kenny'sID]

On the other hand, I subscribe to 1 Cor 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. he will receive a reward. but only as through fire.

I'm sure that, to you, in some way, refutes what I just quoted from the bible, but I see nothing. Those that don't share your stance simply cannot see what you are apparently seeing there, and there is a reason for that.

Sure the more good we do the better, there are rewards, however, that doesn't refute a thing from the scripture I introduced.

 

[FireDragon76]

I granted in the OP that this is not the ideal. But if it's between this and utter disobedience, obedience (however imperfect) is always better.

Let's just be careful, then, the voice we are obeying is actually God's.

As Augustine said, service to God is perfect freedom. If we are becoming merely slaves with no freedom, then something is amiss.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Losing your integrity is losing your soul.

I'd suggest you get with a mainstream dictionary and rethink that.

 

[Almost there]

I'm sure that, to you, in some way, refutes what I just quoted from the bible, but I see nothing. Those that don't share your stance simply cannot see what you are apparently seeing there, and there is a reason for that.

Sure the more good we do the better, there are rewards, however, that doesn't refute a thing from the scripture I introduced.

I don't think you fully understand my stance. In fact, I think you understand it very little - since I've not stated it beyond one tweet-length statement.

 

[Tree of Life]

Let's just be careful, then, the voice we are obeying is actually God's.

As Augustine said, service to God is perfect freedom. If we are becoming merely slaves with no freedom, then something is amiss.

What inspired this thread was a conversation with a friend. He's a professing believer but he does not go to church. Why not? He doesn't want to right now and doesn't think that duty for duty's sake is something that Scripture promotes. He doesn't think it would be right to perform this act until his heart is in it. I think that's hogwarsh. The Lord commands that we become members of his church whether or not we feel like it. There is a place for mere obedience in the Christian life, even though this is not the ideal.

 

[Kenny'sID]

As Augustine said, service to God is perfect freedom. If we are becoming merely slaves with no freedom, then something is amiss.

So, we can/should do what makes us feel as though we are perfectly free? Or do as we like if obedience does not make us feel free?

Either you misunderstand Augustine or Augustine misunderstands.

 

[Almost there]

What inspired this thread was a conversation with a friend. He's a professing believer but he does not go to church. Why not? He doesn't want to right now and doesn't think that duty for duty's sake is something that Scripture promotes. He doesn't think it would be right to perform this act until his heart is in it. I think that's hogwarsh. The Lord commands that we become members of his church whether or not we feel like it. There is a place for mere obedience in the Christian life, even though this is not the ideal.

I go to church for a specific reason(s). I don't believe it is required, but I also don't understand why a Christian would not want to go. For me it is for two reasons: To help other Christians and to be helped by other Christians.

I need personal, face to face contact with other believers, in an environment where we can discuss life and its meaning, within the context of both "gathered in God's name" and gathered as a bunch of humans who also believe in Jesus saving grace.

The bible says not to forsake gathering with other believers and I believe there is a strong reason for that.

 

[Tree of Life]

I go to church for a specific reason(s). I don't believe it is required, but I also don't understand why a Christian would not want to go. For me it is for two reasons: To help other Christians and to be helped by other Christians.

I need personal, face to face contact with other believers, in an environment where we can discuss life and its meaning, within the context of both "gathered in God's name" and gathered as a bunch of humans who also believe in Jesus saving grace.

The bible says not to forsake gathering with other believers and I believe there is a strong reason for that.

Whether or not we think that church membership is commanded is not the point of my thread. My point is that, whatever is commanded, it is worthwhile to obey it just for obedience' sake.

 

[Almost there]

Whether or not we think that church membership is commanded is not the point of my thread. My point is that, whatever is commanded, it is worthwhile to obey it just for obedience' sake.

I'm a member of no church, but I show up and participate.

I don't exactly know what you mean by "obedience for obediences sake". We don't obey to be saved. We obey BECAUSE we are saved.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

he immediately cut me short: "We don't obey God because it makes sense; we obey God because He is God."

This is absolutely true and necessary.

 

[Tree of Life]

Well, it is. Not once do you see such obedience urged in the New Testament. The believer's obedience is always to be arising out of his/her love for God. In fact, the First and Great Commandment is to love God with all of one's being. (Matt. 22:36-38) Your very first act of obedience ought to be to this command. And when it is, obedience for the sake of obedience to God's other commands won't happen.

I agree that true obedience is from the heart. But many times our hearts are not "in it". My point is that, in these instances, this does not justify utter disobedience. Even when we don't want to obey God we still ought to obey God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I don't think you fully understand my stance. In fact, I think you understand it very little - since I've not stated it beyond one tweet-length statement.

Explain this please.

, but not because you're doing it to be saved. You are already saved.

 

[Almost there]

Explain this please.

The last line of my last post may explain it: We don't obey to be saved. We obey BECAUSE we are saved.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm a member of no church, but I show up and participate.

I don't exactly know what you mean by "obedience for obediences sake". We don't obey to be saved. We obey BECAUSE we are saved.

By "obedience for obedience' sake" I mean that the fact that God has commanded something is reason enough for us to do it - even if our hearts are not in it. The most mature expression of obedience is certainly a joyful obedience from the heart. But we ought to obey God simply because he is God - even when we don't want to.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am very familiar with the definitions, and my comment stands as it is. We are saved to grow into a new but restored humanity. Our integrity as a human being is essential to that. There are no double-minded souls in heaven.

People that "obey" but they only obey while repressing deep conflicts in their psyche have built a house on shifting sand. When they depart this world they are going to be in for some surprises. Perhaps not all pleasant.

What am I saying in all this? Be sober and sane. There is a place for mindfulness and introspection in the Christian life, and recognition that God wants us to be something more than religious robots.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it is worthwhile to obey it just for obedience' sake.

I think in Romans, perhaps more, it is written that even the gentiles who do not 'have TORAH' to read or study or even know about,
ARE JUSTIFIED (by YAHWEH an dHIS WORD) when they "DO TORAH" from their heart, showing that TORAH is written on their hearts, just as Yahweh says.
So it is even more than just worthwhile to obey for obedience' sake,
it is LIFE to obey, and death to not obey. ('unjustified' are those who hear, and are not "DO"ers but hearers only.)