Obedience for Obedience' Sake

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why would it be joyless "at best?"

There were many groups who were joyless all the time practically, and I could not see the life of Jesus in them, nor anything in them to want or to follow nor to desire.

 

[RDKirk]

Let's just be careful, then, the voice we are obeying is actually God's.

And yet, scripture urges us to obedience even to "froward masters" as though they were Christ.

As Augustine said, service to God is perfect freedom. If we are becoming merely slaves with no freedom, then something is amiss.

That doesn't mean anything. Sounds neat, but means nothing.

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. -- Romans 6

Paul had no problem defining himself as a "slave."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

and it was a very difficult thing for him to do.

Who ever said it was difficult for him ? Where is it written in Scripture ?

 

[RDKirk]

There were many groups who were joyless all the time practically, and I could not see the life of Jesus in them, nor anything in them to want or to follow nor to desire.

So that's "joyless at worst," not "joyless at best."

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Never heard this being said in evangelical circles. Are you sure its not one of the myths that goes around where one denomination makes accusations about another?

 

[Kenny'sID]

It is important to have a well-formed conscience and to follow that conscience.

It is important to have a well-formed conscience and to follow that conscience. A well-formed conscience is not just about slavish obedience to authority figures, even to God.

I see, so now we can go with conscience, something that can tell us what we want it to tell us, and not concern ourselves with the actual rules.

God wrote em' down for a reason, because he knew what you propose will not/does not work. With Gods way there is no pretending and no mistake on what is what.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So that's "joyless at worst," not "joyless at best."

For them it was both - joyless all the time, no joy in best or worst.

 

[Almost there]

Please quote the scripture that insinuates that from the KJV, but I would read it carefully first, forgetting all you were taught to get from it, if you can.

I'm not really a KJV fan because I don't really trust it (same with NIV but I trust it a bit more)

It's romans 4.

And the only source of "teaching" on this for me is having read it in the bible and comparing other scripture. I've been a professing Christian since 1980, but the last four years I've had a bible on a thumb drive in my dashboard and listen to the bible on my 3 hour round trip commute most every day. It's a fascinating immersion experience. It's changed, solidified, and refocused a lot of beliefs.

 

[bling]

This maybe more complicated than you are thinking.

Are we supposed to do all we do out of a Love for God/Christ?

If we do stuff without Love compelling us are we setting the right example for others?

If we do stuff without Godly type Love are we sinning?

Do we have to quench the Holy Spirit to go on our own to do stuff we feel we have to do and not because we are allowing the Spirit to lead us?

If we do what others consider to be “good stuff” without the Holy Spirit doing it through us, can we take pride in doing it ourselves?

When you feed the wrong motive for doing stuff and feel some pride in doing it, will that not encourage you to do more stuff in the future for the wrong motive?


Instead of telling the person: “God commanded you to go to Church”, so you have to go or you will go to hell. Find out what God’s Love is compelling them to do with the little faith and Love they do have (washes the dishes, vacuum the rug, change a diaper, etc.) and do those things expecting nothing in return and out of God’s pure Love for them and not because they have to or for what they will get out of it (Godly type Love does not work that way). The good news is Godly type Love grows with use.

 

[Almost there]

People without self control, by God's Grace a Gift with Jesus in Salvation,
cannot do what is right.

Though I agree, I should point out that, IMO, nobody has perfect self control (with the exception of Jesus), and few (with the exception of those addicted to some drugs) have no self control. We all fall somewhere in the middle.

 

[Almost there]

Who ever said it was difficult for him ? Where is it written in Scripture ?

You are correct. It is my inference as a father. Only my example regarding Jesus sweating blood stands, of the two examples I used.

 

[Soyeong]

There's a false teaching floating around out there in evangelicalism that obedience for obedience' sake is a bad thing. Or that duty for duty's sake is a bad thing. An example would be someone who's unwilling to go to church or read the Bible because they don't want to. And if they don't want to do it, it would be somehow bad or perhaps Pharisaical to do it just because it's the right thing to do. They suppose that until they really want to do it, it would be better to refrain from doing it entirely.

But this is a bunch of hogwarsh.

The ideal is obedience from the heart. That we love God and obey his commands because it is our heart's deepest desire. But even when we do not desire to obey God's commands we still ought to obey them. Indeed, that's what makes it obedience! When we do it even though we don't want to do it we are submitting ourselves to the Lordship of Christ.

Do any of Y'ALL subscribe to this false teaching?

God has always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13, Mark 7:6-9), so obedience to God has always been about where our heart is at and has never been about outward obedience for it's own sake. In Philippians 3:8, Paul considered outward obedience without having a focus on drawing into a relationship with Christ to be rubbish because it was missing the whole point. In Matthew 7:21-23, obedience done apart from having a focus on growing in a relationship with Christ was counted as being Lawless, again because was missing the whole point. This also also why Israel failed to obtain righteousness in Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:10.

Someone can not in the mood to obey God's commands, but nevertheless still choose to do so anyway because they love Him, they have faith in Him to guide them in how they should rightly live, they have confessed that they will submit to Jesus are Lord, they have self-control, it is their duty, and they want to continue to grow in an intimate relationship with him, and this is all good, but if their obedience is not about drawing close to God, then they are missing the point.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I'm not really a KJV fan because I don't really trust it (same with NIV but I trust it a bit more)

Isn't the NIV just an interpretation if the KJV, if not, exactly what is it?

I'd have to compare the scriptures. But you are essentially saying we can live in sin, because of your understanding of the NIV scripture there, even though the scripture I quoted made it clear as night and day we cannot do that?

Of course because it made so clear we cannot, I have to question the understanding or the authenticity of the NIV scripture you just quoted.

It can't be both ways so something isn't right.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I see, so now we can go with conscience, something that can tell us what we want it to tell us, and not concern ourselves with the actual rules.

Well, not "we" following Jesus, but yes "we" as in most of the world's population.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Well, not "we" following Jesus, but yes "we" as in most of the world's population.

Or "we" as in us that consider our self Christian. The whole context of the subject I was on can explain why I put it such a way.

 

[Tree of Life]

There is, as far as God is concerned, only one sort of "true obedience." That is obedience that arises from obedience to the First and Great Commandment. Any other obedience, as Scripture makes clear, is spiritually useless and garners no eternal reward. As Christ pointed out, it is a very dangerous thing to get in the habit of loveless obedience. We can get busy doing all sorts of things for God - miracles and exorcisms even - and find ourselves strangers to Christ at the Final Judgment. And, really, obedience to God that does not arise from the keeping of the First and Great Commandment is actually disobedience.

So would you counsel my friend to not go to church until his heart was in it?

 

[Oldmantook]

Yep. The bible says a lot about self control. And that is what this is about. It's controlling the flesh, but not because you're doing it to be saved. You are already saved. You do it because you want to be more perfect, which is a goal of every Christian. And it can be hard work, as the New Testament proclaims all over the place. But it is a worthy goal.

Isn't obedience a requirement to be saved according to Heb 5:9?

 

[Almost there]

Isn't the NIV just an interpretation if the KJV, if not, exactly what is it?

No, the NIV is not an interpretation of the KJV. This is a nice Goldilocks (just right) sized explanation: What is the difference between the KJV and the NIV? | Evidence for Christianity

But you are essentially saying we can live in sin, because of your understanding of the NIV scripture there, even though the scripture I quoted made it clear as night and day we cannot do that?
Rather than forcing you to infer what I was saying, let me just say it: I believe we live in sinful flesh and "fleshly desires" or "desires of the flesh" are often, if not usually, at odds with the spirit. Just as Jesus is fully God and fully man, Christians are fully spirit and fully man. That is why the bible speaks of the natural man and the spiritual man. And what Paul is talking about in Romans 7:15 and on.

Only Christ was perfect. A Christian shows evidence of a changed life, but not a perfect life. If I am perfect, I have no need of Christ. And if paul was perfect, he would not have written what he did in Romans (referenced above).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Isn't obedience a requirement to be saved according to Heb 5:9?

What does Heb 5:9 say ? (quote it out please, it is not rendering )

 

[Almost there]

Isn't obedience a requirement to be saved according to Heb 5:9?

Isn't obedience a requirement to be saved according to Heb 5:9?

Yes. We are to obey His commandments. It doesn't speak of perfect obedience, however. Frankly, if that is the message of the bible, I give up, because I can't do it. I'm more the "God forgive me, a sinner." type. I try to obey because that is what he teaches and I want to please Him, not because my salvation depends on it. "not of works, lest any man should boast"