O.B.N.C.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
If a believer leaves the faith, I don't call them a believer. I call them an apostate. A former believer, if you will.

Regardless of what one is called, WHEN they believe they possess eternal life (Jn 5:24) and the result is that they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

Wait. You are actually saying that an apostate will be saved? Regardless of what they do?

Just tell me what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

When you say 'apostate', do you mean a person who did believe and was given eternal life, or something else.

That is in direct contradiction to Heb 6:4-6
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

Are you openly charging Jesus with being contradictory with this passage???

If you have ANY honesty and discernment, you must see that this is talking about someone who was saved, but fell away.

I have never argued that a saved person can't fall away, as Calvinists do. But there is nothing in Scripture that says in unambiguous wording that "falling away" means loss of salvation.

This person is no longer repentant.

So what verse actually says that results in losing salvation?

And as Acts 3:19 says, repentance is necessary for forgiveness of sin. But this person cannot be brought back to repentance. They cannot be forgiven. They cannot be returned to salvation. They have lost their salvation.

Pure presumption. There is nothing clear about losing salvation in ANY verse.

Keep trying.

otoh, I have already shared the verses that prove that salvation is permanent. Once given eternal life, which occurs at saving faith (John 5:24), the recipient shall never perish (John 10:28).

It is unambiguously clear.

Don't forget the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:13,14. The believer from the moment WHEN they believe, they are sealed with Him for the day of redemption.

That is permanent language.

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why do you believe that a child of God can become an UN-child of God?

If salvation can be lost, then all that occurs at the moment of faith must be undone.

Yet, there are no verses that teach any of that.

Really? There are 13 chapters and 303 verses.

This kind of answer reveals that you CANNOT prove your claim about losing salvation.

If you really did have an unambiguous one, you'd have been shoving it down my throat by now.

Instead, I've been trying to shove John 5:24 and 10:28 down yours that prove eternal security.

But you're just not swallowing the truth.

You have to read scripture in the context of the entire book. So read Hebrews. It's not that long. Or read Galatians with an open mind.
Yes you are shoving single out of context verses instead of using discernment.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Locked into what? Once HIS sheep, always HIS sheep

Yes... that's why the scriptures have many warning about falling into false teachings. Because it's impossible, right?

Your comment has nothing to do with my comment.

Paul said if you go back to the law for example Christ will be of no use to you.

It doesn't mean He no longer saves. Why do you blatantly ignore John 10:28. Jesus gives the gift of eternal life WHEN a person becomes a believer (John 5:24). And the result of being a recipient of eternal life is he/she shall never perish.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said?

 

[renniks]

Are you openly charging Jesus with being contradictory with this passage???

This is all you have. You pit one verse you don't understand correctly against the rest of scripture.
That's how cults work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have to read scripture in the context of the entire book. So read Hebrews. It's not that long. Or read Galatians with an open mind.

Rather, you have no clear and unambiguous verses that support your presumptions.

I am very familiar with Hebrews. You have no case.

Yes you are shoving single out of context verses instead of using discernment.

Prove your presumption by showing that I am taking verses "out of context". That's just a huge ruse.

 

[renniks]

doesn't mean He no longer saves. Why do you blatantly ignore John 10:28. Jesus gives the gift of eternal life WHEN a person becomes a believer (John 5:24). And the result of being a recipient of eternal life is he/she shall never perish.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said?

One verse you misunderstood against the weight of scripture equals false teaching.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Are you openly charging Jesus with being contradictory with this passage???

This is all you have.

No, I have many verses that prove eternal security.

You pit one verse you don't understand correctly against the rest of scripture.

How come you haven't tried to provide the correct understanding of the verses I share.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
doesn't mean He no longer saves. Why do you blatantly ignore John 10:28. Jesus gives the gift of eternal life WHEN a person becomes a believer (John 5:24). And the result of being a recipient of eternal life is he/she shall never perish.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said?

One verse you misunderstood against the weight of scripture equals false teaching.

It's really tiring when a poster makes this kind of charge but then FAILS to back it up with actual evidence. Where is your evidence? Quit making EMPTY charges. They are meaningless.

Show me what the "one verse" I "misunderstood" really means. I challenge you to back up your claims with evidence.

 

[renniks]

Prove your presumption by showing that I am taking verses "out of context". That's just a huge ruse.

I already have shown that you don't even read the verse in the context of the book of John. Jesus defines who the sheep are those that follow and listen to him and then he says he gives them eternal life. First of all it's a metaphor, we aren't actually sheep. And the reason we are called sheep is because we follow him.
So, there is no reason to think he gives eternal life to those who don't follow him, or follow for a while and then go another way.

 

[Doug Brents]

Regardless of what one is called, WHEN they believe they possess eternal life (Jn 5:24) and the result is that they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

When they are baptized (not believe-but that is for another discussion), we receive the promise of eternal life IF WE REMAIN FAITHFUL. Eternal life is not unconditional.

When you say 'apostate', do you mean a person who did believe and was given eternal life, or something else.

Apostate is one who believed, and was baptized into Christ (received salvation), but forsakes their belief and turns back to a life of unrepentant sin. This is the one who loses their salvation.

If a saved person sins, no matter how many times, but is repentant and turns back to God each time (continuously), that person remains in Christ and does not at any point lose their salvation. But the person who does not repent, and does not turn back to God, DOES lose their salvation.

Are you openly charging Jesus with being contradictory with this passage???

Absolutely not. I am saying your interpretation is in direct contradiction of what the Spirit through the writer of Hebrews said.

I have never argued that a saved person can't fall away, as Calvinists do. But there is nothing in Scripture that says in unambiguous wording that "falling away" means loss of salvation.

I am sorry you have missed it.
Is it not clear to you that there is no darkness in Heaven?
So anyone thrown into “outer darkness” is in a place where God is not.
And there is no pain in Heaven, nor tears.
So the fact that there is weeping and gnashing of teeth means this is not Heaven also.
And this is where those who fall away, are found to be unfruitful (or produce evil fruit), or teach false doctrines (doctrines of demons) are cast.

Pure presumption. There is nothing clear about losing salvation in ANY verse.

If you want clear, go read a fiction novel. Many of them are very clear.
But the Scripture is intentionally unclear so that those who are not lead by the Spirit are as confused as you are. God said that those with ears will hear, and those with eyes will see, but those who don’t won’t.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Prove your presumption by showing that I am taking verses "out of context". That's just a huge ruse.

I already have shown that you don't even read the verse in the context of the book of John.

Please STOP with this RUSE. It's getting real tired. You've shown no such thing.

Jesus defines who the sheep are those that follow and listen to him and then he says he gives them eternal life.

OK, yes He did. And v.27 in NO WAY is the condition for receiving eternal life. If you want to know what the condition was for possessing eternal life, go to John 5:24, where Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life.

First of all it's a metaphor, we aren't actually sheep. And the reason we are called sheep is because we follow him.

Still NOT a condition for receiving eternal life. Believing is the condition. Period.

So, there is no reason to think he gives eternal life to those who don't follow him, or follow for a while and then go another way.

You just don't want to face reality then. There is NOTHING in v.27 that constitutes a condition for receiving eternal life. Jesus described believers in v.27. That's all He did.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that the sole condition for never perishing is being given eternal life. That is exactly the meaning of v.28.

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Prove your presumption by showing that I am taking verses "out of context". That's just a huge ruse.

Please STOP with this RUSE. It's getting real tired. You've shown no such thing.


OK, yes He did. And v.27 in NO WAY is the condition for receiving eternal life. If you want to know what the condition was for possessing eternal life, go to John 5:24, where Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life.


Still NOT a condition for receiving eternal life. Believing is the condition. Period.


You just don't want to face reality then. There is NOTHING in v.27 that constitutes a condition for receiving eternal life. Jesus described believers in v.27. That's all He did.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that the sole condition for never perishing is being given eternal life. That is exactly the meaning of v.28.

You are focused on one verse instead of using discernment. The sheep are those who entered through Jesus, and follow and listen. ( which is what belief is. It's trust, not just mental acknowledgement,,)
Those who don't do those things, even if they once did, aren't sheep.
How you get that non believers are sheep is puzzling, since it's nowhere in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Regardless of what one is called, WHEN they believe they possess eternal life (Jn 5:24) and the result is that they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

When they are baptized (not believe-but that is for another discussion), we receive the promise of eternal life IF WE REMAIN FAITHFUL. Eternal life is not unconditional.

GOOD GRIEF. Are you being serious? If you really believe that, please quote the verse that informed you of that. And, why do you keep refusing to believe John 5:24 where Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life?

Apostate is one who believed, and was baptized into Christ (received salvation), but forsakes their belief and turns back to a life of unrepentant sin. This is the one who loses their salvation.

Well, I just as strongly reject your presumption that water baptism is required for salvation.

If a saved person sins, no matter how many times, but is repentant and turns back to God each time (continuously), that person remains in Christ and does not at any point lose their salvation.[/QUOTE]
And you KNOW you do NOT have any verses that say this. This is just a presumption.

But the person who does not repent, and does not turn back to God, DOES lose their salvation.

Again, you have no verses that say this.

Rather, Jesus was unambiguous. Those He gives eternal life (believers) shall never perish. This gift is given when the person becomes a believer. John 5:24.

Prove me wrong by addressing both John 5:24 and 10:28 and exegete them to show me my error.

I am sorry you have missed it.
Is it not clear to you that there is no darkness in Heaven?

Irrelevant comment/question.

So anyone thrown into “outer darkness” is in a place where God is not.

That is pure presumption.

The context of "outer darkness" is in context of the wedding supper. This will occur ON EARTH when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent. Rev 19 shows the preparation for the wedding, and immediately the armies of heaven (all the dead saints) accompanying Jesus back to earth, for the wedding supper and the Millennial Kingdom.

And there is no pain in Heaven, nor tears.

Why did you make this comment? How does it support your presumptions?

So the fact that there is weeping and gnashing of teeth means this is not Heaven also.

Try earth.

And this is where those who fall away, are found to be unfruitful (or produce evil fruit), or teach false doctrines (doctrines of demons) are cast.

Again, presumption without any biblical evidence.

If you want clear, go read a fiction novel. Many of them are very clear.
But the Scripture is intentionally unclear so that those who are not lead by the Spirit are as confused as you are.

This is just a copout. You can't defend your presumptions, so you try to hide behind your fantasy about those "not led by the Spirit". I'll bet you can't even describe how to be "filled with the Spirit" that Paul commanded of all believers in Eph 5:18.

God said that those with ears will hear, and those with eyes will see, but those who don’t won’t.

You just described yourself. Nothing you have claimed can be found in Scripture.

And I'm stunned at your reckless comment about Scripture being "intentionally unclear". Paul was quite clear in his answer to the jailer. Jesus was extremely clear about who will be condemned (John 3:18) and who will NEVER PERISH (John 10:28).

Your cop-out excuse is only a devious insinuation that the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell me. That's tantamount to claiming that I'm not saved. That's a cheap shot. But you at least have revealed your agenda.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are focused on one verse instead of using discernment.

I think it's time to actually read my post, if that's your view. I have proven eternal security from 4 verses, none of which you have taken the time to exegete to show me my error.

John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that condemnation is for those who "have not believed". That means those who "never believed". And you haven't shown otherwise.

John 5:24 and 10:28 tell us that eternal life is possessed when one becomes a believer and those recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

All 4 verses are crystal clear. You just haven't believed them.

How you get that non believers are sheep is puzzling, since it's nowhere in the Bible.

The real puzzle is how you get that I have done that. But, of course, you won't ever explain yourself, so why bother asking.

What you stubbornly refuse to accept is that the Bible NEVER describes an apostate as a non believer. The Bible specifically describes "unbelievers" or "non believers" as those who "have not believed" ever. Or "have NEVER believed".

Why do you reject John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12? They are very clear.

 

[renniks]

What you stubbornly refuse to accept is that the Bible NEVER describes an apostate as a non believer. The Bible specifically describes "unbelievers" or "non believers" as those who "have not believed" ever. Or "have NEVER believed".

So perhaps you could stop posturing and just answer a simple question, will there be former believers in heaven?

 

[renniks]

otherwise.

John 5:24

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."

Nothing about any impossibility of dying again. In fact this verse says one has to believe (current tense) to possess eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So perhaps you could stop posturing and just answer a simple question, will there be former believers in heaven?

Let me ask you this: did a former believer EVER receive the gift of eternal life?

Your answer to this question will also answer your question to me.

I'm trying to get you to think. Understand what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
otherwise.

John 5:24

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."

Nothing about any impossibility of dying again.

I never said the verse did. That's found in John 10:28, which is a companion verse to 5:24.

In fact this verse says one has to believe (current tense) to possess eternal life.

Aren't you aware that WHEN a person believes in Christ it is IN the present tense.

Are you also aware that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, as the verse indicates? btw, Jesus used the present tense for "has" or "possesses" as well.

Also, you have claimed I'm a "one verse" guy.

I've already pointed out 4 verses that teach eternal security:

John 5:24 with John 10:28
John 3:18 with 2 Thess 2:12

Here are some more:

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words show WHEN a person is "included IN Christ", which is WHEN they believed.

The blue words show who the seal is; the Holy Spirit.

The green words show what this sealing ministry of the Spirit DOES: guarantees our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession. Which are sealed people.

So, from the MOMENT WHEN a person believes, they are sealed with the Spirit, a guarantee of their inheritance until the redemption of those sealed.

These 2 verses teach eternal security just as much as the previous 4 that I've shared over and over. So now you have 6 verses to explain what they say if you disagree with me.

But they are so clearly stated, it is impossible to show any other meaning.

 

[renniks]

Let me ask you this: did a former believer EVER receive the gift of eternal life?

They possess eternal life until they no longer believe. That's why we are warned that falling for false teaching brings destruction.
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron."

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
otherwise.

John 5:24

I never said the verse did. That's found in John 10:28, which is a companion verse to 5:24.


Aren't you aware that WHEN a person believes in Christ it is IN the present tense.

Are you also aware that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, as the verse indicates? btw, Jesus used the present tense for "has" or "possesses" as well.

Also, you have claimed I'm a "one verse" guy.

I've already pointed out 4 verses that teach eternal security:

John 5:24 with John 10:28
John 3:18 with 2 Thess 2:12

Here are some more:

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words show WHEN a person is "included IN Christ", which is WHEN they believed.

The blue words show who the seal is; the Holy Spirit.

The green words show what this sealing ministry of the Spirit DOES: guarantees our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession. Which are sealed people.

So, from the MOMENT WHEN a person believes, they are sealed with the Spirit, a guarantee of their inheritance until the redemption of those sealed.

These 2 verses teach eternal security just as much as the previous 4 that I've shared over and over. So now you have 6 verses to explain what they say if you disagree with me.

But they are so clearly stated, it is impossible to show any other meaning.

Ephesians 1:13-14

In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30

Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which you have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.

So, this sealing is towards a future day of redemption, and there is a warning against grieving the holy spirit. Why?

Isaiah 63:10, 19

But they rebelled and grieved his holy spirit.
He then turned into their enemy,
And he fought against them.

Oh wait, but weren't they his? Yes, until they grieved the Holy Spirit.

This is in the first part of the verse you quoted:

"In whom ye also trusted..."

Our salvation involves our trust in the Lord. If we lost that trust, if we decide not to continue to trust in Him, then we fall away.